Art Bell

[Chronaut]

Who gets to decide what's acceptable and what is not?

I appreciate what MV has created and hope he keeps it as is.

I'm a huge advocate of free speech.  I was drawn to the wild and woolly chat forums of the early internet before the insidious noose of censorship strangled the life from online chat rooms.  Nothing quite tests your mettle and helps you discover your true character like taking the gloves off and debating your core values and perceptions with people who see the world very differently.

However, anonymous brow-beating is one thing, but hurling libelous allegations at a known and named individual is quite another.  Mutual anonymity is symmetrical.  An anonymous troll impugning the character and corrupting the public perception of a named individual is not.

So I don't have a problem with faceless strangers deucing it out on a public forum.  But I think the line should be drawn at libel.  Because honestly, to allow it is not only morally reprehensible, but it also threatens the survival of the board.

I would think that Heather is too loyal to implicate the board in a libel suit for the allegations raised against her by a vile troll here.  But I'm deeply disappointed that her loyalty doesn't seem to be reciprocated because that member and those words are still here.

I'm not saying that we should have common standards of conduct here; but I think that a minimum standard that prohibits actual libel would speak well of MV, and show Heather that her loyalty means something, and also protect MV and the board against any future legal entanglements.

[ItsOver]

Haha- I kinda see you two more as Lenny and Squiggy.... and Onan as Carmine the 'Big Ragoo' 

Ha!  MV, Aldous, and Jazmunda would make a great...uh, "bunch of guys."

[Danger!UFO]

Art:

Wishing you happiness and safety in the coming new year. Please continue to have Heather keep the seat warm. Yes, it's her show now but I'm sure she would like you to return on an occasional if not weekly basis. Six months from now this could all be a distant memory. Please keep all options open. Your supporters will back you regardless.

I think maybe Heather should avoid social media. She's doing great. Keep moving forward. Stay focused.

[maureen]

for the Bells with all good wishes!

[whytide]

I think the line should be drawn at libel

This makes sense. Trolls can and do destroy online communities just as much as over-censorship can.

[Coffeeman]

I'm a huge advocate of free speech.  I was drawn to the wild and woolly chat forums of the early internet before the insidious noose of censorship strangled the life from online chat rooms.  Nothing quite tests your mettle and helps you discover your true character like taking the gloves off and debating your core values and perceptions with people who see the world very differently.

However, anonymous brow-beating is one thing, but hurling libelous allegations at a known and named individual is quite another.  Mutual anonymity is symmetrical.  An anonymous troll impugning the character and corrupting the public perception of a named individual is not.

So I don't have a problem with faceless strangers deucing it out on a public forum.  But I think the line should be drawn at libel.  Because honestly, to allow it is not only morally reprehensible, but it also threatens the survival of the board.

I would think that Heather is too loyal to implicate the board in a libel suit for the allegations raised against her by a vile troll here.  But I'm deeply disappointed that her loyalty doesn't seem to be reciprocated because that member and those words are still here.

I'm not saying that we should have common standards of conduct here; but I think that a minimum standard that prohibits actual libel would speak well of MV, and show Heather that her loyalty means something, and also protect MV and the board against any future legal entanglements.

Ha, if she has the money to take a libel suit all the way, then you're in trouble. Those suits rarely go anywhere because they're almost, nearly always impossible prove in situations in real life, let alone some comment forum.

Besides, you say you're for free speech, but that is crux of it. You can't have it if some whiny ass is getting butt hurt over...and I really can't type this without laughing...some internet "bullying" then being able to silence people. It's one reason why places like England, most of Europe, friggin Canada are goin downhill - you hurt somebody's feelings, you get some "-ist" attached to you (mysogynist, sexist, racist, etc) you get the state up your ass over it. 

[whytide]

you say you're for free speech, but that is crux of it. You can't have it if some whiny

It seems that you don't agree with the concept of libel itself, which is interesting.

It seems the Internet, in general, has had this effect.

[Showroom Dummy]

Hey Art      -          what do you think of the Space X Falcon 9 successful landing the other day ? I still can't believe it -it was amazing.  and do you feel its going to change everything for space travel now ?

[Meister_000]

I have enjoyed your posts. I suggest you do yourself a favor and put old Jackstar on your ignore list. I (And many many others) did it many months ago and have never regretted it.

Thanks, and hello to you. I'm familiar with Jackstar.  Having your "name used in vain" in such a fashion is gloves-off time if I were him. And in this case, I think people would, shall we say, look the other way, if he were to  "apply his talents" as only he can do.

[Autistic Star Children]

Art "stepped aside" on 12/11 and his anniversary is 4/11 

If there's anyone out there who has either a podcast, or a blog, or any medium and really wants to hear about 1111 from a normal married dude in his 30s with no agenda/website/book, I'll always be your guy. Open and honest.

I know part of the 1111 grief is because George Noory has spoken out about it, but I've said it before and will say again, I've yet to hear one second of a Noory hosted show, in any aspect. Besides a few brief spots on AA, I wouldn't know who he was if it wasn't for bellgab or his interview with MV on gabcast.

Hey Art, looking forward to seeing you back on the air on 1/11

[Coffeeman]

Ok, if people want me to leave I can do that. I guess it's easy to leave where you are not wanted. I simply wanted to correct things people were saying that were completely wrong.

Art

Devotion to fans is admirable, but it's not like you owe a bunch of retards from 4chan anything.

[Chronaut]

Ha, if she has the money to take a libel suit all the way, then you're in trouble. Those suits rarely go anywhere because they're almost, nearly always impossible prove in situations in real life, let alone some comment forum.

You do realize that the comments we're talking about are in black and white right here on the board, right?  Which is, by definition, proof.

And I'm not sure that you understand the difference between typical online shit talk, and libel.  For example, it's not libelous to say "I think Jamie Dimon should hang by his testicles until he dies from a cerebral hemorrhage," because that's just stating an opinion, but it would be libelous to say "Jamie Dimon got his job by bending over the conference table at JP Morgan for the entire board of directors one night," because that would be a defamatory allegation.  Libel is just one step above posting something like a specific death threat - it's not a high bar.  In fact I've only seen two cases of it in this forum, and they were from the same poster.  Enforcing a ban on libel wouldn't have any negative impact here; but it would be a smart, sensible policy.

Besides, you say you're for free speech, but that is crux of it.

Not at all; you're casting the issue in black-and-white terms, and nothing is black-and-white in life.  For example, if we give all speech the protection of free speech, then by your reasoning it should be legal for some psychopath to call you on the phone and say "if you don't leave $10K in a briefcase inside the phone booth at JFK at 10am tomorrow morning, then I'm going to rape your wife and daughter."  Words can have criminal substance, and when they do, they should have criminal consequences.  And in the field of entertainment, character assassination aka criminal defamation can cost the victim a whole lot more than $10K.

You can't have it if some whiny ass is getting butt hurt over...and I really can't type this without laughing...some internet "bullying" then being able to silence people.

I'm sorry, but I don't think you understand the difference between "harsh words" and libel.  I don't think that libel laws equate to "silencing people."  It's one thing to have the right to speak your mind and be even a dick about it, but it's another to actually cause harm to someone's livelihood or to threaten someone.  Libel is a reasonable aspect of the social contract.  Say for example, someone hacked the site and traced your IP somehow and got your real name and starting making anonymous and false allegations that were damaging to you and your livelihood.  You'd seek a lawyer to put a stop to it, I should hope.  That's the kind of thing we're taking about here.

It's one reason why places like England, most of Europe, friggin Canada are goin downhill - you hurt somebody's feelings, you get some "-ist" attached to you (mysogynist, sexist, racist, etc) you get the state up your ass over it.

We have libel laws in the US too and nobody seems to be complaining about it.  I'm not advocating some wild new law here - they already exist.  And we'd be wise, and morally justified, to abide by those laws.

But if you want to voice your opinions about anyone and anything, I'm happy to fight for that right.  Libel and opinions are two different things though.

[Jackstar]

Thanks, and hello to you. I'm familiar with Jackstar.  Having your "name used in vain" in such a fashion is gloves-off time if I were him. And in this case, I think people would, shall we say, look the other way, if he were to  "apply his talents" as only he can do.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvCNJrtky8A

I'm familiar with Jackstar.

Those words don't mean that when used that way.

[sydtron]

Perspective.

Art has stolen nothing from us. We happily supported the show and voted with our $$$ to keep DMDN going.

We bought some entertainment.   Same goes with this website.

Now,  Ive been here since before the Sirius XM deal. And im not going away anytime soon. I feel we all have forged some mighty fine friendships and a smart, funny, observative community here.

I dont hang my hat on bellgab or Art.  But this place feels like a clubhouse where one gets away to. Sometimes to the dismay of our significant others, who from time to time ask us, "What the fuck are you doing?" At 3a.m. on a Tuesday when youve to be up for work in 4 hours.  HIHI. 

In closing, if ive said nothing at all in this short time here with you all as crazy bastards on this pirate ship.

Be cool to each other.   and. Long live ART BELL

[Chronaut]

This makes sense. Trolls can and do destroy online communities just as much as over-censorship can.

Yep.  Trolls can destroy online communities without even resorting to libel.  But libel leaves us open to very serious legal consequences that could nuke the board virtually overnight.  I would never want to see that happen - this seems to be one of the last remaining outposts of truly unbridled psionic warfare, and frankly I think that can build character and sharpen the mind.  But raging debate between anonymous users is a far cry from lobbing firebombs at a named individual who isn't even debating with you, and has never done a thing to even hurt your feelings.  That's just cowardly and despicable, imo.

[Jackstar]

this seems to be one of the last remaining outposts of truly unbridled psionic warfare

There's a bridle. It ratchets around one's perineum. I don't endorse or recommend its use. But it's there.

[Chronaut]

Perspective.

Art has stolen nothing from us. We happily supported the show and voted with our $$$ to keep DMDN going.

We bought some entertainment.   Same goes with this website.

Now,  Ive been here since before the Sirius XM deal. And im not going away anytime soon. I feel we all have forged some mighty fine friendships and a smart, funny, observative community here.

I dont hang my hat on bellgab or Art.  But this place feels like a clubhouse where one gets away to. Sometimes to the dismay of our significant others, who from time to time ask us, "What the fuck are you doing?" At 3a.m. on a Tuesday when youve to be up for work in 4 hours.  HIHI. 

In closing, if ive said nothing at all in this short time here with you all as crazy bastards on this pirate ship.

Be cool to each other.   and. Long live ART BELL

Peace, sydtron, and thanks for the perspective.  If you need a pair of pants I'll be happy to send you one.  I'm glad you've enjoyed the site.  I'll leave you with these words of wisdom:

"The first rule of BellGab is: You do not talk about BellGab. The second rule of BellGab is: You do not talk about BellGab. Third rule of BellGab: Someone yells stop, goes limp, taps out, the fight is over."

[Chronaut]

There's a bridle. It ratchets around one's perineum. I don't endorse or recommend its use. But it's there.

Ouch.  Thanks for the warning.

[whytide]

the 1111 grief

I'm not sure if Art has a position on "11 11".

One of Art's guests in 2015 independently brought up the 11:11 idea, though, and I recall immediately thinking of Noory. In the thread at the time, a lot of people chuckled at the reference (I was a guest lurker at that time).

The guest was Jim Elvidge. (Link to program: Nov. 10th, 2015). Transcript:
___________________________
[23:15]
Art Bell: They created a little program for computers. I wonder if you ever saw it. I can't remember the name of it now. It would put a little picture of Earth on your computer screen. It would sort of go between Earth and total static, and then the Earth would being to go back again. The object of the game was to sit there and concentrate as hard as you could in either getting complete static on the screen or the picture of the world on the screen. It was sort of a "mini" consciousness experiment. And I'm telling ya, I was pretty good at it!
Jim Elvidge: Interesting! That's great. Did you record the results? Did you find -- I mean, I always think about these things in terms of mathematical probabilities --
Art Bell: Yes.
Jim Elvidge: -- And sure enough, a similar kind of thing, Art, I've had these experiences where I see the number "eleven eleven" all the time.
Art Bell: Mmm!
Jim Elvidge: I have friends that do as well. I don't know what the deal is with "eleven eleven," but I started thinking, 'Oh, it's just coincidence!' I happen to be looking at my watch or my phone a lot, so of course I see it. But I actually did the analysis of it. I wrote down every single time I saw it, and there's only two times during the day when you're gonna see it. Over a period of two months, I wrote every one down. I also did, at a separate time, [Music starts playing] I estimated how often I looked at my phone. It turns out, it is statistically significant! So --
Art Bell: Alright, well, there you have it. Your glitch in the Matrix. Hold on. Jim Elvidge is with us. I'm Art Bell, and this is Midnight in the Desert.
___________________________

Note: Art didn't follow up on "eleven eleven" after the break.

[Meister_000]

Those words (I'm familiar with Jackstar) don't mean that when used that way.

The Way, be this . . .
(Merry Christmas Jackstar)


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eBpYgpF1bqQ

[Value Of Pi]

You do realize that the comments we're talking about are in black and white right here on the board, right?  Which is, by definition, proof.

And I'm not sure that you understand the difference between typical online shit talk, and libel.  For example, it's not libelous to say "I think Jamie Dimon should hang by his testicles until he dies from a cerebral hemorrhage," because that's just stating an opinion, but it would be libelous to say "Jamie Dimon got his job by bending over the conference table at JP Morgan for the entire board of directors one night," because that would be a defamatory allegation.  Libel is just one step above posting something like a specific death threat - it's not a high bar.  In fact I've only seen two cases of it in this forum, and they were from the same poster.  Enforcing a ban on libel wouldn't have any negative impact here; but it would be a smart, sensible policy.
Not at all; you're casting the issue in black-and-white terms, and nothing is black-and-white in life.  For example, if we give all speech the protection of free speech, then by your reasoning it should be legal for some psychopath to call you on the phone and say "if you don't leave $10K in a briefcase inside the phone booth at JFK at 10am tomorrow morning, then I'm going to rape your wife and daughter."  Words can have criminal substance, and when they do, they should have criminal consequences.  And in the field of entertainment, character assassination aka criminal defamation can cost the victim a whole lot more than $10K.
I'm sorry, but I don't think you understand the difference between "harsh words" and libel.  I don't think that libel laws equate to "silencing people."  It's one thing to have the right to speak your mind and be even a dick about it, but it's another to actually cause harm to someone's livelihood or to threaten someone.  Libel is a reasonable aspect of the social contract.  Say for example, someone hacked the site and traced your IP somehow and got your real name and starting making anonymous and false allegations that were damaging to you and your livelihood.  You'd seek a lawyer to put a stop to it, I should hope.  That's the kind of thing we're taking about here.
We have libel laws in the US too and nobody seems to be complaining about it.  I'm not advocating some wild new law here - they already exist.  And we'd be wise, and morally justified, to abide by those laws.

But if you want to voice your opinions about anyone and anything, I'm happy to fight for that right.  Libel and opinions are two different things though.

As I understand the law, the statement is only libelous if untrue and intent to defame can be proved to the legal standard. Do you really think it's practical or desirable to put a moderator or a website in the position of trying to determine what is true and what the intent of the poster was? All you accomplish is to put a huge damper on free expression since any no-libel rule lends itself to being over-enforced.

[Chronaut]

I'm not sure if Art has a position on "11 11".

One of Art's guests in 2015 independently brought up the 11:11 idea, though, and I recall immediately thinking of Noory. In the thread at the time, a lot of people chuckled at the reference (I was a guest lurker at that time).

I first heard about 11:11 back in 1994 when a friend was noticing it a lot, and mentioned that others had been talking about it.

It seems to be a good example of confirmation bias, imo.  With the proliferation of digital clocks in the last few decades it stands out because it's the only time of the day when the numbers are all the same, so it can grab our attention.  Then we notice that we're noticing it, and may even tend to look at the clock around that time of day and night.  But like the common belief that our presence walking down the street can make street lights seems to burn out with unusual frequency, when you look at the math it's pretty clear that we're just taking notice of something that happens fairly frequently and is attention-getting.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/11:11_%28numerology%29

Nice work posting the transcript though - it's always cool to see specific references like that 

[Q-Pi]

(note:  use at your own peril ; )


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mtzU9mVlk0

"Magic Works." Such a cool link, thank you, Chronaut!

I understand the power of sigil-esque works, but don't see why he removes all the vowels? Leads me to think his magic must hinge on... The red SOLO cup.

Merry Christmas!

[SredniVashtar]

I'm a huge advocate of free speech...

Unfortunately, free speech also means getting your hands dirty from time to time, and getting into bed with some undesirable characters. People are rarely as committed to free expression as they think, if it impinges on their own values and beliefs. If you believe in open debate you also have to, unfortunately, defend the rights of neo-Nazis to have their say too. The good news is that, by giving unpleasant views the bright light they need, they also start to seem silly and ridiculous. A civilised society entails co-existing with ideas that we find uncomfortable and even outrageous, and we have to rely on a kind of self-cleaning mechanism (i.e. intelligent people giving the opposing view) to keep them in check rather than banning them outright.

The same principle applies with Heather. Firstly, libel threats are usually no more than that - threats - and never get beyond a vague wish to punish someone. It is also (as Oscar Wilde found out) a double-edged sword, and you can find yourself wishing you had never started the process in the first place, when unexpected details begin to emerge. She has got to realise that if someone is given a job for which they have no experience or particular aptitude then people are likely to assume that other motives are operating. It's like the boss's son getting the job ahead of a list of far better-qualified candidates - accusations of nepotism are almost bound to arise. Nobody has forced her to accept the gig. She could have learned her craft like everyone else, and worked her way up through the ranks, but she hasn't. She has jumped to the head of the queue and has to accept the down-side of that promotion, that's all.

[MV/Liberace!]

I thought you were quitting all social media? Do you ever stick to your word?

it seems there are people out there who just want art to go away.  i understand why people are angry, but this is just silly. 

[MV/Liberace!]

I know when Keith first began themnetwork I tried listening but the quality of shows just wasnt really there except for MV's show...

thanks, buddy.

[MV/Liberace!]

Well she was Baptised by a German Priest who spelled her name that way but no American can look at it and say Irene, so she likes it pronounced as It looks. Many people think that was my idea which is not true, it's what people who look at the spelling say and it is unique so she fell in love with it.

Art

but some people want to believe you forced the pronunciation on her like some medieval prison master!!1 

don't take that away from them!!1

[MV/Liberace!]

I'm not saying that we should have common standards of conduct here; but I think that a minimum standard that prohibits actual libel would speak well of MV, and show Heather that her loyalty means something, and also protect MV and the board against any future legal entanglements.

a public forum is not responsible for the words of its users.  the responsibility falls on the users.  there's plenty of legal precedent to establish this.

[Camazotz Automat]

There's a bridle. It ratchets around one's perineum. I don't endorse or recommend its use. But it's there.

(singing)
Jackstar killed the Kundalini-star.


Meanwhile, we rust away in the Black Iron Prison.

[MV/Liberace!]

But I think the line should be drawn at libel.

and by the way... a courtroom full of lawyers often has a difficult time determining if something is libelous... so you think i'm supposed to be required to make that determination?  or that i even could?  you're living in a fantasy land full of purple unicorns and frowning elves.