Guns

[GravitySucks]

Can't it be both?  Or would that be shooting fish in a barrel?

The notion that "guns" occupy some untouchable realm that precludes regulation is nonsense.  In fact, every western democracy - other than the USA - has struck an appropriate balance between individual rights to own firearms vs. the societal benefit of ensuring public safety.

You show your ignorance when you use the term "every".  Oh no wait, since you define what "appropriate" is in your own mind, I guess you can carry on with the E word.

p.s.  I think mandatory background checks are an infringement, but I will say that since we have them, then we already have your appropriate balance.

[albrecht]

Can't it be both?  Or would that be shooting fish in a barrel?

The notion that "guns" occupy some untouchable realm that precludes regulation is nonsense.  In fact, every western democracy - other than the USA - has struck an appropriate balance between individual rights to own firearms vs. the societal benefit of ensuring public safety.

True, but many of the those other countries also restrict speech, assembly, dress, and many other things far more than we do. Sure it makes, I guess, a more polite society- but how much of your civil rights are you willing to give up? Haven't we already given up enough with the Bush/Obama NDAA, Patriot Act(s), TSA groping and no-fly, NSA wiretapping and data-mining, and so on?

[GravitySucks]

What part of "will not be infringed" is so hard to understand?

Try to put a restriction on anything a liberals wants and they scream that their rights are being infringed. Yet, the one amendment that actually uses the word is somehow "not applicable"  in a liberal mindset.

Back to guns... Right now my favorite pistol is a Springfield XD9 with a 5 inch barrel. Ammo is reasonable, stopping power is adequate for most situations, clip size is adequate, and I find them very accurate and very reliable.  I've shot Glocks, and I don't have anything against them.  I just like my Springfields.

[Yorkshire pud]

In the 1st 6 months of this year in the US, there have been 19,000 traffic deaths and 2.4 million serious injuries from traffic accidents.
http://www.newsweek.com/us-traffic-deaths-injuries-and-related-costs-2015-363602

Where is the outrage against all of the car manufacturers?  Where is the outrage against AAA for encouraging use of these deadly weapons? Where is the call to ban these deadly devices?  There is no constitutional amendment that says you have a right to keep a car.

19000 traffic deaths over how many millions of miles travelled? And what is the demograph? If it's anything like the UK; from memory 25% are from new drivers aged 17 (minimum age to hold a car licence in the UK) to 25. Who represent (again from memory) 8% of the driving population. Of course there's a multiple death scenario with 4-5 in the same vehicle. Pedestrians who are hit by an out of control vehicle...

You're right, there is no right to own or drive a car (although some think there is!), and I would make the exam (in the UK) tougher, but that would represent a far more rigorous method of teaching driving skills. It is possibly the same over there, but we have private companies cropping up who teach kids from elen years old up to 16 how to control a car on private land, away from the traffic, away from distractions. In Finland, kids are taught (and must demonstrate competence in) how to get into and out of a skid, before they're even allowed near a public road.

[GravitySucks]

19000 traffic deaths over how many millions of miles travelled? And what is the demograph? If it's anything like the UK; from memory 25% are from new drivers aged 17 (minimum age to hold a car licence in the UK) to 25. Who represent (again from memory) 8% of the driving population. Of course there's a multiple death scenario with 4-5 in the same vehicle. Pedestrians who are hit by an out of control vehicle...

You're right, there is no right to own or drive a car (although some think there is!), and I would make the exam (in the UK) tougher, but that would represent a far more rigorous method of teaching driving skills. It is possibly the same over there, but we have private companies cropping up who teach kids from elen years old up to 16 how to control a car on private land, away from the traffic, away from distractions. In Finland, kids are taught (and must demonstrate competence in) how to get into and out of a skid, before they're even allowed near a public road.

All of that information can be found in the "Cars, Cars, Cars" thread.

[Yorkshire pud]

All of that information can be found in the "Cars, Cars, Cars" thread.

Oh I thought you knew; after all you declared anything bigger than a Smart car should be classified an assault vehicle. I presumed you had the data..

[onan]

What part of "will not be infringed" is so hard to understand?

Try to put a restriction on anything a liberals wants and they scream that their rights are being infringed. Yet, the one amendment that actually uses the word is somehow "not applicable"  in a liberal mindset.

Back to guns... Right now my favorite pistol is a Springfield XD9 with a 5 inch barrel. Ammo is reasonable, stopping power is adequate for most situations, clip size is adequate, and I find them very accurate and very reliable.  I've shot Glocks, and I don't have anything against them.  I just like my Springfields.

Not all liberals are anti-gun.

I have fired just about every semiauto pistol out there. Springfield holds its own. Personally, I think it is hard to find a "bad" gun in the US. I prefer Sig Sauer. At the moment I a Sig P226, P938, and a Sig 1911 Tacops.

[chefist]

Not all liberals are anti-gun.

I have fired just about every semiauto pistol out there. Springfield holds its own. Personally, I think it is hard to find a "bad" gun in the US. I prefer Sig Sauer. At the moment I a Sig P226, P938, and a Sig 1911 Tacops.

This is a very true statement.  That is why in 8 years of the current administration there has been no real gun control legislation introduced.  Democrats have lost big elections in the past on this very issue.  Many groups under the Democratic umbrella (e.g. unions) are pro second amendment and will vote against a Democrat that advocates for more gun control measures...

[GravitySucks]

[quote

I have fired just about every semiauto pistol out there. Springfield holds its own. Personally, I think it is hard to find a "bad" gun in the US. I prefer Sig Sauer. At the moment I a Sig P226, P938, and a Sig 1911 Tacops.
[/quote]

Sigs are well made guns. When I found how well the Springfield fit my grip, I stopped looking.

I started out with two BHP clones, one from somewhere in Eastern Europe and one Isreali surplus.  They work fine, but are about as heavy as a 1911.

I carry a Berreta F92 when I am out hunting because it has proven to be able to take any abuse I can dish out. Unless the wild hogs are running thick... Then I carry my S&W 44 magnum. If I could afford a Desert Eagle, I might make the switch to a larger cartridge semi-auto to carry when hunting.

[albrecht]

19000 traffic deaths over how many millions of miles travelled? And what is the demograph? If it's anything like the UK; from memory 25% are from new drivers aged 17 (minimum age to hold a car licence in the UK) to 25. Who represent (again from memory) 8% of the driving population. Of course there's a multiple death scenario with 4-5 in the same vehicle. Pedestrians who are hit by an out of control vehicle...

You're right, there is no right to own or drive a car (although some think there is!), and I would make the exam (in the UK) tougher, but that would represent a far more rigorous method of teaching driving skills. It is possibly the same over there, but we have private companies cropping up who teach kids from elen years old up to 16 how to control a car on private land, away from the traffic, away from distractions. In Finland, kids are taught (and must demonstrate competence in) how to get into and out of a skid, before they're even allowed near a public road.

If the car/truck is a legal product I think one has the right to own it. Now to operate on a public thoroughfare one needs to ensure the vehicle passes whatever the mandate/rules are for license, inspection and the operator needs to be licensed (though here if you are driving from say, one part of your farm/ranch to another and a road crossing it you are allowed to do so without a license, I think.)

I also think the driving test should be tougher. We couldn't retro-actively do it but "from now on" I would make the test include the following:
1) be able to drive a standard transmission, in addition to an automatic (here most cars are automatic but I think be able to drive a standard is an important skill and could be useful in an emergency later on even if one does not own one.)
2) be able to change a flat tire, check fluid levels, jump start a battery, check tire pressure, etc.
3) and then pass a test of the knowledge of all the driving laws, in English only.
4) demonstrate ability on a course and then demonstrate ability on the city and highway
5) proof of financial responsibility (insurance or bond on file with State showing cash available for coverage at least per legal limit)

But, the country is so large that a driving license is necessary (for most people) and so people want to make it easy- and have to make test short and easy- just due to sheer volume. And now, in some States, we even give DL's to illegals (so they can vote ( via motor-voter laws) supposedly because they will do so in a safer manner (they currently cause many accidents- often DUI and uninsured.)

[GravitySucks]

Technically, it is still illegal to vote if you are not a citizen.  Trouble is the federal government has successfully fought every voter id law that requires a person to have valid I'd to register to vote.  Once you perjure yourself on that form, all you have to do is take your voter card to the polls.  Even states that have passed voter id laws to actually vote cannot enforce those laws on the registration process. The Feds are too proud of their little form.

[DanTSX]

Why are there so many traffic accidents from drivers without insurance or drivers lic?

Yet all of the democrats at the state levels are constantly trying to make it easier to obtain a drivers license?

What does this even have to do with guns?  Cars are not guns.

Is the discussion really that we need to allow education and financial restrictions on rights?   Would that be ok for free-speech, marriage (of whatever gender identities you wish), religious affiliation, or to vote?

What are you going to do when the State of Arkansas takes the lead and asks lesbian couples to take mandatory conflict-resolution classes, and obtain certain health insurance minimums, and be subject to randomized monitoring because some clown with a PhD twisted some statistics to represent them as four times as likely to beat each other up   than strait or male/male couples? 

While this is a hypothetical situation, but if we want to run our lives based off of contemporary pop-culture "stats", please don't suggest it's wrong unless you want to included statistical extremes (which any statistical example should exclude).

[DanTSX]

Not all liberals are anti-gun.

I have fired just about every semiauto pistol out there. Springfield holds its own. Personally, I think it is hard to find a "bad" gun in the US. I prefer Sig Sauer. At the moment I a Sig P226, P938, and a Sig 1911 Tacops.

Edit: (not a liberal, but conservatives might not call me conservative either).

[paladin1991]

There is an elephant in the room. And that is the number of deaths directly related to firearms. No one wants to own firearms more than I do. But unless there is a reasoned discussion (maybe impossible) eventually the thermidorian swing will kick in. I have no rational response when someone asks me about innocent victims. Except it sucks.

Roger that, bro.  My response is that if the victim had been armed perhaps they might have saved their life or the lives of others.  Or perhaps if someone around them was armed....

But that has no traction with the anti-gun crew.  They have their vision of countless prairies  and mountainsides of naked assholes waiting to be raped by the unlawful who, of course, will have their guns.

[paladin1991]

In a gun discussion recently, I mentioned that about 32000 people in America are killed by guns every year.  One guy, a hardcore gun advocate and Life Member of the NRA said "Yeah..and almost half are suicides."  Then I said "Gary, I've personally known three gun suicides; one about 25 yrs ago by a co-worker whose wife was having an affair, and one 5 yrs ago who lost his job at 55, and a one a couple years ago by a neighbor with cancer.  Two were serious shooters and all three NRA members."  Gary moved to a different table. True story.

Why did he move?  You have bad breath?  See, right there, is part of the problem folks fm both sides have when it comes to dialogue.  They are not prepared to communicate ideas.  They have been trained up or down maybe, to sound bite rather than communicate.

[paladin1991]

I don't think I ever met a real live person who thinks all guns should confiscated and/or banned.

Really?  Ever?  Damn, when I was policing the projects, a LOT of cops thought that no one but cops should have firearms.  Those were coppers who had never served in the military.  Boy Scout types.  No prob with Boy Scouts, really, but BS is BS.

I have never met a guy or gal who served in the military who was for any type of gun control.  Though, it doesn't mean that they aren't out there.   

[paladin1991]

http://www.vocativ.com/usa/guns/suicides-outnumber-homicides-comes-gun-violence/

"But ____ was such a happy guy...a wonderful person!"  "I don't know what happened, this came out of nowhere!"

Words I've actually heard in caring for gun suicide victims in the ER.  The problem of the ongoing issue of screening to keep guns out of the hands of the mentally ill is the assumption those suffering from mental illness are diagnosed and easily identified.

It's my belief that if a person is gonna off themselves, their gonna do it.  Pistol, a knife to the artery, walk in front of a train....You are not going to stop them if they can find the means....any means.

[paladin1991]

And, oddly, some of the same people who seek the gun bans- and rightfully decry suicide and point about gun access making it easier- also support abortion, "right to die," and/or euthanasia initiatives- which often involve suicide (not always in some cases the doctors do the killing by commission or omission!) Usually for those with terminal conditions in great pain (but not always.) Usually with consent (but not always; Liverpool Care Path incentives and the scandal in Belgium.) But some countries even allow "right to die" by depressed people without doctors (Switzerland is the only one I know now- who, oddly, allows and encourages citizens to own guns.) A weird world.

Hmmm, will have to google their suicide by firearms stats

[paladin1991]

In the 1st 6 months of this year in the US, there have been 19,000 traffic deaths and 2.4 million serious injuries from traffic accidents.
http://www.newsweek.com/us-traffic-deaths-injuries-and-related-costs-2015-363602

Where is the outrage against all of the car manufacturers?  Where is the outrage against AAA for encouraging use of these deadly weapons? Where is the call to ban these deadly devices?  There is no constitutional amendment that says you have a right to keep a car.

Shhhh.  It's all part of the Insurance Racket.  STFU.  No video later.

[paladin1991]

They don't run a background check when you buy a car legally.

Anything larger than a Smart Car should be classified as an assault vehicle.

Fucking A Skippy.  I want to be in charge of those background checks. 

"Can you read and speak English?"

"If, your insurance should lapse or you allow your insurance to lapse, do you accept that all organs that are duplicated in your body, one of each will be made available for immediate transplant?"

"Following recovery from transplant procedures, should any accident have occurred where in your lack of insurance was discovered, you accept that you will be imprisoned and ordered to Penal work battalions for not less than 5 years."

I could go on.....

[paladin1991]

I'd be curious to know the following of the liberal mind:

What use of guns are you comfortable with your fellow citizens exercising?  What makes you uncomfortable?

What guns do you want to ban?   How are they more or less dangerous than guns that you are "ok" with?

Who should arbitrate what guns, uses, and quantities are appropriate?  Would you be ok with other constitutionally enumerated rights having a similar arbiter of limitations apply to them?

What do you place a higher priority on?  Suburban and rural people with guns, or inner-city violence?

Dan you cannot bring that kind of logic to the table.  Their brains will melt an bubble out of their ears.  Then we will be left with half a nation of Noory's.

[GravitySucks]

Hmmm, will have to google their suicide by firearms stats

It is dwarfed by death by chocolate.

[paladin1991]

That's pretty cool.  I use the Aquila Colibri rounds for pests around the house.  They have the sound and velocity of a pellet gun, but when coupled with NV optics can be very effective.

I'll have to see if they are banned here in the Peoples Republic of California.

[GravitySucks]

I'll have to see if they are banned here in the Peoples Republic of California.

They are lead, so probably.

Check out their Sniper Sub Sonic .22LR as well.  They are really decent rounds and I haven't had any troubles with them cycling through any of my 10/22s.

[paladin1991]

It is dwarfed by death by chocolate.

WTF?  What's wrong with those ppl?  Ban the fucking Schololaden.

[onan]

Hmmm, will have to google their suicide by firearms stats

I've posted this before but it is relevant.



http://www.davidcolarusso.com/deaths/#.ViwQvisWZOQ

[albrecht]

I've posted this before but it is relevant.



http://www.davidcolarusso.com/deaths/#.ViwQvisWZOQ

A few of my issues with this (though I agree on the general point:)
-not including "depression" (and the various other varieties of depression except Bipolar)

-although less common now, with modern coroners/medical-examiner, more centralization, and if life-insurance policies are involved, a lot of presumed (or even almost known) suicides were 'officially' put off as accident (or as the Brits say 'misadventure',) particularly with single-car accidents, "cleaning his gun," over-doses, etc. To spare the family or if circumstances weren't clear (but likely, err on the side of "sparing the family." (I'm not saying I'm against this, though I've heard good arguments on why this shouldn't happen because it encourages those suffering from whatever not to seek help because "shameful" etc.) So number of suicides is likely much more.

-I would wonder if one compares the amount of prescription meds vs that percentage of "mental illness." Now, if one is on the meds does that take him out of the number of the "mentally ill?" Because if you look at how many prescriptions are out there for the various anti-depressants, anti-psychotics, ADD/ADHD stuff, Valium, Lithium, etc etc? Some which is prescribed off-label use but also by family doctors/GPs. I think more people, if the prescriptions are valid, would be considered mentally ill (maybe not seriously mentally ill but?) So percentage of mentally ill people is higher.

[VtaGeezer]

Really?  Ever?  Damn...

Yep; really. And I'm sorry to say I've broken your string with ex-military opposing all gun control. And I know at least a few others, including combat vets, who favor rational and moderate restrictions.

[onan]

A few of my issues with this (though I agree on the general point:)
-not including "depression" (and the various other varieties of depression except Bipolar)

-although less common now, with modern coroners/medical-examiner, more centralization, and if life-insurance policies are involved, a lot of presumed (or even almost known) suicides were 'officially' put off as accident (or as the Brits say 'misadventure',) particularly with single-car accidents, "cleaning his gun," over-doses, etc. To spare the family or if circumstances weren't clear (but likely, err on the side of "sparing the family." (I'm not saying I'm against this, though I've heard good arguments on why this shouldn't happen because it encourages those suffering from whatever not to seek help because "shameful" etc.) So number of suicides is likely much more.

-I would wonder if one compares the amount of prescription meds vs that percentage of "mental illness." Now, if one is one the meds does that take him out of the number of mental illness? Because if you look at how many prescriptions are out there for the various anti-depressants, anti-psychotics, ADD/ADHD stuff, Valium, Lithium, etc etc? I think more people, if the prescriptions are valid, would be considered mentally ill (maybe not seriously mentally ill but?) So percentage of mentally ill people is higher?

You're asking a very difficult question. Even tougher, because I am too lazy to explain all the aspects of what many consider mentally ill as opposed to real mental illness.

Depression unto itself is not really a mental illness, it is by and large part of the human experience. And yes it can be treated by an antidepressant, but it would be healthier to learn to use coping skills more effectively, and ( a real big and ) learn that life is not always pleasant. However, depression can become a pervasive serious mental illness under certain circumstances, which include some measure of psychosis. Long story short, an anti depressant prescribed by the family doc does not mean mental illness.

What often happens with suicides and depression is a coexisting condition of some variation a personality disorder, which also is where most mass murderers should be classified. And guess what, it is extremely difficult to establish whether someone with a personality disorder is going to harm them self or another. Many with that condition threaten, but never actually act on that threat. Others do act superficially, which is a concern and needs more intensive observation. But not all, by a large margin are ever dangerous. A continual pain in the ass, most certainly. And, there is no medication to treat a personality disorder.

As far as suicides that are not labeled as suicides... OK, sure, sometimes to protect the families feelings a suicide is classified as an "accident". But not as often as your post seems to suggest.

Most people that are on medications to treat mental illness are probably too sick to own a weapon. However, there are other conditions that are not mental illness but do involve the brain. Some diseases affect the cognitive process. Charles Whitman didn't have a mental illness. He did have a brain tumor.

The mass shootings we are seeing today, in my opinion, are, if not all certainly most committed by people with personality disorders.

[GravitySucks]

Yep; really. And I'm sorry to say I've broken your string with ex-military opposing all gun control. And I know at least a few others, including combat vets, who favor rational and moderate restrictions.

We have all the rationale and moderate restrictions we need. They just need to enforce the current laws.  An ATF agent should be dispatched every time someone lies on a ourchase form and then fails the background check. Happens in less than .001% of failed purchase attempts based on my memory of the last data I saw.