Guns

[onan]

There is an elephant in the room. And that is the number of deaths directly related to firearms. No one wants to own firearms more than I do. But unless there is a reasoned discussion (maybe impossible) eventually the thermidorian swing will kick in. I have no rational response when someone asks me about innocent victims. Except it sucks.

[chefist]

There is an elephant in the room. And that is the number of deaths directly related to firearms. No one wants to own firearms more than I do. But unless there is a reasoned discussion (maybe impossible) eventually the thermidorian swing will kick in. I have no rational response when someone asks me about innocent victims. Except it sucks.

I think the first step is for a willingness to have an honest discussion...both sides seem to have their fortresses built and are not willing to come out and talk...

1. The right thinks the left wants jack booted thugs to come into their homes, take their guns, and leave them defenceless against criminals and evil government...

2. The left thinks that guns are the root of these deaths and removing them is the best solution for society....even if your family is murdered by criminals, that is the price for "saving lives" by not having guns in the law abiding home...

Will this happen...maybe...but not in the near future I think....

[albrecht]

There is an elephant in the room. And that is the number of deaths directly related to firearms. No one wants to own firearms more than I do. But unless there is a reasoned discussion (maybe impossible) eventually the thermidorian swing will kick in. I have no rational response when someone asks me about innocent victims. Except it sucks.

I think it will happen naturally, with a few kicking and screaming (and shot up by the government,) because the demographic changes brought about an open-border and legal immigration from people totally unused to gun ownership, the increasing urban population (so no concept of hunting, outdoors, self-reliance,) lawsuits (once able with insurance companies and zoning bans/fees to follow,) more tragic school shootings, family annihilators, suicides, etc (due to nihilism, PTSD and other mental illness, bad economy, media influence (copy-cats, shooter games indoctrinating youth,violent movies,) and drug abuse (legal and illegal,) and with #1 the increases in urban city crime and shootings will push public opinion to "ban 'em" as a simple solution to complex problems of violence, mental illness, wealth disparities, desperation, bad economies (often in certain areas) etc.

[VtaGeezer]

In a gun discussion recently, I mentioned that about 32000 people in America are killed by guns every year.  One guy, a hardcore gun advocate and Life Member of the NRA said "Yeah..and almost half are suicides."  Then I said "Gary, I've personally known three gun suicides; one about 25 yrs ago by a co-worker whose wife was having an affair, and one 5 yrs ago who lost his job at 55, and a one a couple years ago by a neighbor with cancer.  Two were serious shooters and all three NRA members."  Gary moved to a different table. True story.

[VtaGeezer]

2. The left thinks that guns are the root of these deaths and removing them is the best solution for society....even if your family is murdered by criminals, that is the price for "saving lives" by not having guns in the law abiding home...

I don't think I ever met a real live person who thinks all guns should confiscated and/or banned.

[chefist]

I don't think I ever met a real live person who thinks all guns should confiscated and/or banned.

The issue needs to be clarified.... Some on the left do believe that...not all but a vocal few...

[GeorgieForPresident2216]

In a gun discussion recently, I mentioned that about 32000 people in America are killed by guns every year.  One guy, a hardcore gun advocate and Life Member of the NRA said "Yeah..and almost half are suicides."  Then I said "Gary, I've personally known three gun suicides; one about 25 yrs ago by a co-worker whose wife was having an affair, and one 5 yrs ago who lost his job at 55, and a one a couple years ago by a neighbor with cancer.  Two were serious shooters and all three NRA members."  Gary moved to a different table. True story.

I don't think suicides should be discounted in this argument.  The thing that concerns me most about handguns is that they are so easy to pick up and use in a moment of rage, panic, desperation, jealousy, etc.  Unless an individual has been in that situation I don't think they can know how those emotions can overcome all but the most disciplined and well-trained.  I spent a lot of years feeling suicidal and had those moments of absolute desperation.  If I had a handgun available, I really don't think I would be here today.

[Lt.Uhura]

http://www.vocativ.com/usa/guns/suicides-outnumber-homicides-comes-gun-violence/

"But ____ was such a happy guy...a wonderful person!"  "I don't know what happened, this came out of nowhere!"

Words I've actually heard in caring for gun suicide victims in the ER.  The problem of the ongoing issue of screening to keep guns out of the hands of the mentally ill is the assumption those suffering from mental illness are diagnosed and easily identified.

[albrecht]

And, oddly, some of the same people who seek the gun bans- and rightfully decry suicide and point about gun access making it easier- also support abortion, "right to die," and/or euthanasia initiatives- which often involve suicide (not always in some cases the doctors do the killing by commission or omission!) Usually for those with terminal conditions in great pain (but not always.) Usually with consent (but not always; Liverpool Care Path incentives and the scandal in Belgium.) But some countries even allow "right to die" by depressed people without doctors (Switzerland is the only one I know now- who, oddly, allows and encourages citizens to own guns.) A weird world.

[GeorgieForPresident2216]

And, oddly, some of the same people who seek the gun bans- and rightfully decry suicide and point about gun access making it easier- also support abortion, "right to die," and/or euthanasia initiatives- which often involve suicide (not always in some cases the doctors do the killing by commission or omission!) Usually for those with terminal conditions in great pain (but not always.) Usually with consent (but not always; Liverpool Care Path incentives and the scandal in Belgium.) But some countries even allow "right to die" by depressed people without doctors (Switzerland is the only one I know now- who, oddly, allows and encourages citizens to own guns.) A weird world.

Still, and I'm neither endorsing nor condemning those things, it is the difference between a contemplated decision and one that occurs in a momentary fit of absolute desperation which may only last a few seconds.  That is why I draw a distinction between handguns and rifles.  The rifles take a little time and effort to use properly.

[albrecht]

Still, and I'm neither endorsing nor condemning those things, it is the difference between a contemplated decision and one that occurs in a momentary fit of absolute desperation which may only last a few seconds.  That is why I draw a distinction between handguns and rifles.  The rifles take a little time and effort to use properly.

I agree with you, actually, on the issue between handguns and rifle/shotguns and with regard to desperation/momentary impulse vs contemplated suicide (though I find that just as tragic and don't think anyone should be encouraged to kill themselves.) I just find it interesting how opinions and perceived value of "life" can vary so much and in such convoluted fashion.

[GravitySucks]

And, oddly, some of the same people who seek the gun bans- and rightfully decry suicide and point about gun access making it easier- also support abortion, "right to die," and/or euthanasia initiatives- which often involve suicide (not always in some cases the doctors do the killing by commission or omission!) Usually for those with terminal conditions in great pain (but not always.) Usually with consent (but not always; Liverpool Care Path incentives and the scandal in Belgium.) But some countries even allow "right to die" by depressed people without doctors (Switzerland is the only one I know now- who, oddly, allows and encourages citizens to own guns.) A weird world.

In the 1st 6 months of this year in the US, there have been 19,000 traffic deaths and 2.4 million serious injuries from traffic accidents.
http://www.newsweek.com/us-traffic-deaths-injuries-and-related-costs-2015-363602

Where is the outrage against all of the car manufacturers?  Where is the outrage against AAA for encouraging use of these deadly weapons? Where is the call to ban these deadly devices?  There is no constitutional amendment that says you have a right to keep a car.

[RealCool Daddio]

The conservative mind at work:

Abortion?  Ban it.
Drugs? Ban them, too.
Gay marriage?  Whoa, nelly, gotta ban that.
Immigration? Get real, people. Banned, banned, banned.

Guns?  Well, you know, banning things never really works...

[Mind Flayer Monk]

We don't have a thread about guns? That seems odd.

There was one called "educate me on why you want all guns all the time" or something similar.

[Mind Flayer Monk]

In the 1st 6 months of this year in the US, there have been 19,000 traffic deaths and 2.4 million serious injuries from traffic accidents.
http://www.newsweek.com/us-traffic-deaths-injuries-and-related-costs-2015-363602

Where is the outrage against all of the car manufacturers?  Where is the outrage against AAA for encouraging use of these deadly weapons? Where is the call to ban these deadly devices?  There is no constitutional amendment that says you have a right to keep a car.

There is an incredible amount of regulation on cars/autos. You aren't paying $1200 a year in gun insurance (per gun).

[GravitySucks]

The conservative mind at work.
Liberal minds don't work.

FIFY

[GravitySucks]

There is an incredible amount of regulation on cars/autos. You aren't paying $1200 a year in gun insurance (per gun).

They don't run a background check when you buy a car legally.

Anything larger than a Smart Car should be classified as an assault vehicle.

[RealCool Daddio]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence

FIFY

[DanTSX]

Interesting that automatic weapons became illegal after the passage of the National Firearms act of 1934.  The violence stemming from prohibition and the fact that law enforcement was out armed by the use of the Tommy Gun, led to a coalition of conservative and liberal private interest groups that drove the passage of the bill.

It was that same coalition that passed prohibition in the first place!

They were not made illegal.

The National Firearms Act of 1934 created classifications of firearms (and silencers) that had to be registered via a tax.

Machine guns continued to be made for civilian sale through most of 1986, and continue to be actively traded on the open market.  I could grab $10k out of my savings right now and go buy a full-auto submachine gun.  I also own several types of firearms regulated by NFA34.

They are a shitload of fun, and in the case of the transferable machine-guns, a great investment.

[GravitySucks]

They were not made illegal.

The National Firearms Act of 1934 created classifications of firearms (and silencers) that had to be registered via a tax.

Machine guns continued to be made for civilian sale through most of 1986, and continue to be actively traded on the open market.  I could grab $10k out of my savings right now and go buy a full-auto submachine gun.  I also own several types of firearms regulated by NFA34.

They are a shitload of fun, and in the case of the transferable machine-guns, a great investment.

I never had the desire to spend the money, but I like the idea of knowing that I can if I ever choose to.

I go through enough ammo with the ARs, SKSs, Ruger minis, and 10/22s.  I would need a 3rd job if I had a full auto.

Dan, I had to borrow your quote last night... The one about "Show me on this doll..."  That is classic.

[DanTSX]

The conservative mind at work:

Abortion?  Ban it.
Drugs? Ban them, too.
Gay marriage?  Whoa, nelly, gotta ban that.
Immigration? Get real, people. Banned, banned, banned.

Guns?  Well, you know, banning things never really works...

Are you here to talk about guns or take potshots at what you think a "conservative" thinks?

[DanTSX]

I'd be curious to know the following of the liberal mind:

What use of guns are you comfortable with your fellow citizens exercising?  What makes you uncomfortable?

What guns do you want to ban?   How are they more or less dangerous than guns that you are "ok" with?

Who should arbitrate what guns, uses, and quantities are appropriate?  Would you be ok with other constitutionally enumerated rights having a similar arbiter of limitations apply to them?

What do you place a higher priority on?  Suburban and rural people with guns, or inner-city violence?

[DanTSX]

Hey guys.

Just wanted to toss this out there to expose some of those not into guns a little bit.

This is a Ruger 22 caliber pistol with a silencer cranked onto the front of it.  This particular silencer is one of the quietest on the market.  They essentially work like your car's muffler.  While it is very quiet, the sound is not quite like the assassin movies make it out to be. 

While I don't have to justify owning it, (as it is my right), I have no problem telling curious people that first and foremost, it is a lot of fun (because silencers are uncommon for the most part), it also allows me to instruct new shooters without wearing substantial (or even any) hearing protection, and is easier to teach them because of less flinching from the report.  It is also likely effective against pests and varmints in my rural, but still populated area, but I have not yet had any need or desire to dispatch any animals.  I also like it because I think it pisses liberals off.  But every time I take one shooting, they love the silencers and the AR-15's the best.  So I guess I failed there, but in a good way, so I really don't care.

Without someone projecting accusations of their hollywood movie fantasies at me, I'm really not sure how something like this could be a problem with any of you.  I shoot about 10,000 - 20,000 rounds a year out of this thing at local ranges, or safely in secluded back yards or private property.  The capacity is 10 rounds (I wish it held more, but whateva), and the trigger has been upgraded, and it benefits from a red dot sight suitable for any lighting condition.

The paperwork underneath the pistol has the ATF tax stamp clearly visible, so please don't waste an agent's time sending them to my residence to look for something I shouldn't have.  I gladly paid that $200 tax with a smile, so don't get hostile saying Conservatives want to cut all sorts of taxes.

Don't ban me bro

[GravitySucks]

That's pretty cool.  I use the Aquila Colibri rounds for pests around the house.  They have the sound and velocity of a pellet gun, but when coupled with NV optics can be very effective.

[DanTSX]

That's pretty cool.  I use the Aquila Colibri rounds for pests around the house.  They have the sound and velocity of a pellet gun, but when coupled with NV optics can be very effective.

Thanks!

NV is something I'd love to get into.

Agree, the Colibris do very well on my buddy's farm.

I have used those little .22LR Ratshot shotgun rounds to dispatch carpenter bees before.  Very useful!  Thats about the only "hunting" I do.  And they are quite effective within about 25ft.  But I use a .22LR rifle for that.  The rat shot would make a mess out of this silencer.

[RealCool Daddio]

Are you here to talk about guns or take potshots at what you think a "conservative" thinks?

Can't it be both?  Or would that be shooting fish in a barrel?

The notion that "guns" occupy some untouchable realm that precludes regulation is nonsense.  In fact, every western democracy - other than the USA - has struck an appropriate balance between individual rights to own firearms vs. the societal benefit of ensuring public safety.

[GuerrillaUnReal]

The conservative mind at work:

Abortion?  Ban it.
Drugs? Ban them, too.
Gay marriage?  Whoa, nelly, gotta ban that.
Immigration? Get real, people. Banned, banned, banned.

Guns?  Well, you know, banning things never really works...

For the record I'm for all five of those things, simultaneously if possible.

[DanTSX]

Can't it be both?  Or would that be shooting fish in a barrel?

The notion that "guns" occupy some untouchable realm that precludes regulation is nonsense.  In fact, every western democracy - other than the USA - has struck an appropriate balance between individual rights to own firearms vs. the societal benefit of ensuring public safety.

That depends if you want a pissing match specifically at your initiation, or a discussion?  Needless to say, you are not off to a very good start, so I hope that this the first in a series of thoughtful replies to you, rather than a slap back.

How would you define an "appropriate balance"?  It seems to me that there are plenty of other mass shootings in other nations.

And are we talking about rights or privileges?  Do you not recognize a difference?

[DanTSX]

For the record I'm for all five of those things, simultaneously if possible.

The only thing I'm against is abortion.   I'm not sure what this guy's issue is.  It's like he jumped off Jerry Falwell's lap and ran crying to the shower.

I do recall both Obama and Hillary being against gay marriage until deep into Obama's second term.  And, if I'm not mistaken, that little witch in Kentucky holding up all the marriages is a Democrat as well, so I'm not sure if Republicans have a monopoly on this unfortunate contradiction.  I, on the other hand, (and a fairly staunch "conservative") cannot remember ever being agains gay marriage.  I'm thrilled they can marry, speak freely, vote, own guns, and whatever.  Why be defined into a narrow shoebox a political party wants to stuff you in?  Was I ever supposed to be mad that they wanted to enjoy their rights?

But I digress, back to guns m'kay

[albrecht]

There is an incredible amount of regulation on cars/autos. You aren't paying $1200 a year in gun insurance (per gun).

I'm not paying that much for insurance on my truck either, but it depends on location, coverage, company, yearly mileage, personal history, etc.

But the Federal government doesn't mandate that your insure your vehicle (personal vehicle)- that is up to State law. And even then in most States you can self-insure if you submit a bond. And it you have your vehicle on your personal property (ranch, farm, or just sitting in your garage) you don't need to buy motor vehicle insurance.