Do You Believe In GOD

[Kelt]

Uh, dude.. if you would just READ the Bible you would see that the resurrection of Jesus is true because there were witnesses... hello?... do you even know what a witness is?

And it wouldn't be in the Bible if it weren't true, so it must be true.... hello?

What... ever.

[DigitalPigSnuggler]

Uh, dude.. if you would just READ the Bible you would see that the resurrection of Jesus is true because there were witnesses... hello?... do you even know what a witness is?

And it wouldn't be in the Bible if it weren't true, so it must be true.... hello?

What... ever.

Another thing I'm too dense to understand is this thing about Paul/Saul -- why would he lie?  The apostle Luke lied about him, and half of the works with his name on them were fabrications by others after his death, and even FTF lies about him.  All of those people lying, and we don't even need to ask why THEY would lie, because their lying isn't in dispute.

But Paul, who had much more to gain by lying than those who lied in support of him -- why would HE lie?

You know what would really be funny?  If Obama got on the TV tomorrow and said that Jesus appeared to him and told him what to do about, say, the economy.  After all, why would Obama lie?  Half of all of the religious retards in the country would swallow their tongues and drop dead on the spot, they would be so upset.  But a guy from 2000 years ago that we barely know, and what little we know is MOSTLY lies, THAT GUY WE CAN TRUST when we read that he said that Jesus appeared to him, and ONLY him.

I wish I was smarterer so that I could understand this stuff.  I should have studied in 2nd grade, rather than trying to cop a panty peek when Mrs. Mulvahill uncrossed her legs.  That's what I SHOULD have done.

[FightTheFuture]

But you knew that Bart Ehrman is agnostic, or you did in April... so ummm okay.

Well, actually, no. I thought I knew.  Yes, it turns out that Bart really is AN ATHEIST. And yes, I`ve RECENTLY heard it come right from his own lips. I`ve seen him speak a few times, read some of his books, and he always struck me as a classic atheist, but, none-the-less, it was widely understood that he was, in fact, an agnostic, so that`s what everybody went with.

Then he clarified what he meant all along. He absolutely does NOT -- repeat -- NOT believe in the God of the bible. Period. (SOUNDS LIKE A STONE COLD ATHEIST TO ME). So, Bart now says he is an atheist...when it is relevant to the Christian faith, bible, etc.

but...



Now, In typical, complicated Bart Ehrman fashion (He can be a bit confusing at times, ol` Burt), he attributes his agnosticism to the fact that he doesn`t know what he doesn`t know. Spaghetti monster -- maybe...whatever. BUT, NO GOD OF THE BIBLE!


Oh, and I believe you were attempting to make some issue of his evangelical past. We believers tend to compare former Christians to former smokers. Yeah, they`re the worst. Just ask Area51drone.

Good try, though.  I do Appreciate all the time you put into your research. I hope this now clears it up for you.

[FightTheFuture]

...and even FTF lies about him.  All of those people lying, and we don't even need to ask why THEY would lie, because their lying isn't in dispute...

I have tried to be nice to you, and answer all your objections in a nice, civil, friendly manner. Yet, you continue to hammer away. Why are you SO incredibly bitter?? It simply amazes me! How ANYONE could be so  virulent!

I hope you feel better someday soon. I can`t even IMAGINE living with that kind of hatred. Good luck, pig.


Si può un giorno sentirsi volontà di Dio amore per te. Ciao.

[DigitalPigSnuggler]

I have tried to be nice to you, and answer all your objections in a nice, civil, friendly manner. Yet, you continue to hammer away. Why are you SO incredibly bitter?? It simply amazes me! How ANYONE could be so  virulent!

I find deception to be distasteful, and when someone does it to my face, knowingly, gets called out on it, and then pretends it never happened, it bothers me all the more.  Stop with the aggrieved victim pose.  You're bullshitting us, and you got caught with your pants down, and this is the exit you're choosing to save face.  You should be ashamed, but then again, you have none.

[DigitalPigSnuggler]

He absolutely does NOT -- repeat -- NOT believe in the God of the bible. Period. (SOUNDS LIKE A STONE COLD ATHEIST TO ME).

Not believing in the "god of the bible" doesn't make you an atheist, as you fucking goddamn well know.  That is the second most absurd thing you have said in this thread.  It's beyond disrespectful for you to post this horseshit.  You've left the realm of religious nut and have descended into being a troll.  God help you.

[DigitalPigSnuggler]

The Childish pictures start popping up, and it just goes downhill from there.

You mean just like this post of yours?  http://bellgab.com/index.php/topic,6655.30.html

Like all religious conservatives, a hypocrite.

Ente, ca pure le pulece hanno la tosse!  Cristo santo!

[area51drone]

You know what would really be funny?  If Obama got on the TV tomorrow and said that Jesus appeared to him and told him what to do about, say, the economy.  After all, why would Obama lie?  Half of all of the religious retards in the country would swallow their tongues and drop dead on the spot, they would be so upset.  But a guy from 2000 years ago that we barely know, and what little we know is MOSTLY lies, THAT GUY WE CAN TRUST when we read that he said that Jesus appeared to him, and ONLY him.

this.

[area51drone]

You mean just like this post of yours?  http://bellgab.com/index.php/topic,6655.30.html

Hey now, that sorority girls FUCK MICHIGAN pic is pretty damned awesome, and I don't give a shit about fucking Michigan.   Of course, telling Michigan to fuck off is super christiany.

[Kelt]

Michigan is great.

Detroit on the other hand...

[Kelt]

Holy crap. Yeah, I think some experimenting was in order instead of just going for it. But, at least whoever brought the tape measure for the hole was thinking ahead.

In the context of our exchange, not to make a point or demand a response but rather just because it's downright interesting, regarding the human brain...

http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-29093700

[Catsmile]

Well, actually, no. I thought I knew.  Yes, it turns out that Bart really is AN ATHEIST. And yes, I`ve RECENTLY heard it come right from his own lips. I`ve seen him speak a few times, read some of his books, and he always struck me as a classic atheist, but, none-the-less, it was widely understood that he was, in fact, an agnostic, so that`s what everybody went with.

Then he clarified what he meant all along. He absolutely does NOT -- repeat -- NOT believe in the God of the bible. Period. (SOUNDS LIKE A STONE COLD ATHEIST TO ME). So, Bart now says he is an atheist...when it is relevant to the Christian faith, bible, etc.

but...



Now, In typical, complicated Bart Ehrman fashion (He can be a bit confusing at times, ol` Burt), he attributes his agnosticism to the fact that he doesn`t know what he doesn`t know. Spaghetti monster -- maybe...whatever. BUT, NO GOD OF THE BIBLE!


Oh, and I believe you were attempting to make some issue of his evangelical past. We believers tend to compare former Christians to former smokers. Yeah, they`re the worst. Just ask Area51drone.

Good try, though.  I do Appreciate all the time you put into your research. I hope this now clears it up for you.

There was no try. It hit home.
Now you twist it in an attempt at damage control to save face and faith.
Nice try at moving the goalpost though.

At this point I'll trust Wikipedia over you, and thats somewhat of a low bar.
Plus I'll trust my lifetime seeking the truth. I'm open to God existing, or not existing.
I want to believe, fact is believing would be easy to do.
Honest logical folk would have to conclude there's not enough facts or proof to know if god is or isn't. Agnosticism. Anything else leads you to BELIEVE there is a God, or BELIEVE there isn't a God.

What scholars know would make most Christians scream they are atheist, or heretics.
Even the bible beater scholars have to over look, discount, or twist many "facts."
And they won't dare say anything that would bring the wrath of Christians/church.

Imbibe more blood of Christ I'm sure you will find the answers there.
And I hope that clears it up for you.

[zeebo]

... it wouldn't be in the Bible if it weren't true, so it must be true ....

Yep .... and since by that logic we know everything in the bible is true, that means the bible as a whole must be true, which of course confirms our previous assumption that everything in the bible is true ....

(Tautologies are just so darn useful sometimes.)

[FightTheFuture]

There was no try. It hit home.
Now you twist it in an attempt at damage control to save face and faith.
Nice try at moving the goalpost though.

At this point I'll trust Wikipedia over you, and thats somewhat of a low bar.
Plus I'll trust my lifetime seeking the truth. I'm open to God existing, or not existing.
I want to believe, fact is believing would be easy to do.
Honest logical folk would have to conclude there's not enough facts or proof to know if god is or isn't. Agnosticism. Anything else leads you to BELIEVE there is a God, or BELIEVE there isn't a God.

What scholars know would make most Christians scream they are atheist, or heretics.
Even the bible beater scholars have to over look, discount, or twist many "facts."
And they won't dare say anything that would bring the wrath of Christians/church.

Imbibe more blood of Christ I'm sure you will find the answers there.
And I hope that clears it up for you.

yeah, I think you are a little confused. We're talking belief systems here.

Bart Ehrman  September 29, 2013


As to not being clear: I’ve repeatedly said I’m both an atheist (about what I believe) and an agnostic (about what I know). Is there some way to be clearer?




No Bart, that clears it up. You don't believe God. Where I come from, that is an atheist.

I believe in God,; I do not know there is a God. Am I too, an agnostic? Of course not.

And Cat, your condemnation of thousands of scholars who ascribe to the Christian faith is, not only extraordinarily arrogant, but just plain ignorant. You've no familiarity with the field, and the scholars who operate in it. Yet, you act as if you do, and further, you have the hubris to judge them!

[Catsmile]

yeah, I think you are a little confused. We're talking belief systems here.

Bart Ehrman  September 29, 2013


As to not being clear: I’ve repeatedly said I’m both an atheist (about what I believe) and an agnostic (about what I know). Is there some way to be clearer?




No Bart, that clears it up. You don't believe God. Where I come from, that is an atheist.

I believe in God,; I do not know there is a God. Am I too, an agnostic? Of course not.

And Cat, your condemnation of thousands of scholars who ascribe to the Christian faith is, not only extraordinarily arrogant, but just plain ignorant. You've no familiarity with the field, and the scholars who operate in it. Yet, you act as if you do, and further, you have the hubris to judge them!

Keep telling yourself that. You can think anything you wish, but that that doesn't make it correct.

Who did I condemn? You are assuming I'm judging. I could care less what people BELIEVE.
There is a difference between god and God. You believe there is a God, if you don't know there is a God, well thats a problem with your faith. Not believing there is a God, or god/gods you might be atheist. Questioning the existence of God, or any god/gods you might be agnostic.   

You know nothing of my knowledge, or how many scholars I've seen and talked to on both sides of many regions. You projecting that I'm condemning or judging scholars because you don't agree with what I say, shows how little you know of the field in question as a whole.

Condemnation, arrogant, judgment, and ignorant is a big part of your sects wheelhouse. They project those same qualities onto the unfaithful. Instead of turning the other cheek, they retaliate. Anything beyond their depth is seen as an attack. Their holy book is a weapon and a defense. Lost is the message of love. The hubris of a christian to judge.  FAIL!

[Catsmile]

Bottom line, best of the best scholars don't know what really happened. They weren't there, none of us were there. It's all best guessing and educated guesses. Little hard facts remain that can be proven or dis-proven today. Written accounts are left behind, some accounts aline with others, some don't, some are incomplete.

Most of the documents that survive today are hundreds of years after the crucifixion, even eyewitness accounts are second, third hand, or worse. Truisms, parables, eyewitness accounts from antiquity many times removed hardly make a solid foundation for facts. Much less proof of the existence of Gods son in mortal form.

God could settle all of this of course. But alas this God likes being mysterious, so here we are. You'll just have to take it all in faith, don't question it. True story.

Again, does God believe in us enough to set the record straight? Has God lost his belief in us? 

You can disbelieve in God, that does not make one an atheist.
Your definition is narrow and judgmental.
You can still believe in other god/gods.

[FightTheFuture]

Most of the documents that survive today are hundreds of years after the crucifixion, even eyewitness accounts are second, third hand, or worse. Truisms, parables, eyewitness accounts from antiquity many times removed hardly make a solid foundation for facts. Much less proof of the existence of Gods son in mortal form.

Yeah, again, that`s not exactly accurate.

And I`m not accusing you of lying or distorting or anything so vile. I`m just saying that there`s loads of same century, contemporary historical records that give testimony to the Resurrection of Jesus.

I came across an excellent lecture by Dr. Gary R. Habermas, perhaps the leading scholar in the world relating to the Resurrection of Jesus. I would urge anybody to watch it all the way to the end(excellent Q&A at the very end). He`s quite succinct and pretty engaging. I think anyone would enjoy it:


The Resurrection Argument That Changed a Generation of Scholars - Gary Habermas at UCSB

[Robert Ghostwolf's Ghost]

Hey now, that sorority girls FUCK MICHIGAN pic is pretty damned awesome, and I don't give a shit about fucking Michigan.   Of course, telling Michigan to fuck off is super christiany.

Approval Jesus makes me laugh every time I see him because he looks like The Rock.

[Tarbaby]

On the issue of the empty tomb proving resurrection, I don't think I would put all my eggs in that basket. I noticed one time that there were four books in the New Testament that talked about the angel that supposedly  rolledthe rock away from the cave. They didn't agree on whether it was an angel or a man that was sitting on the rock outside the cave when others came to see that the body of Christ was missing. This is critically flimsy evidence to base an entire belief in the resurrection on. It seems more likely to me that it was men who rolled the Rock away. (And took the body) not an angel. It seems to me that over and over again these little magical upgrades were added to the texts.

[FightTheFuture]

Hey now, that sorority girls FUCK MICHIGAN pic is pretty damned awesome, and I don't give a shit about fucking Michigan.   Of course, telling Michigan to fuck off is super christiany.

Funny as hell, isn't it?? Of course, you probably have to be from Ohio to appreciate it.


















pssst ...I think the Lord has a decent sense of humor. After all, there IS  University of Michigan

[FightTheFuture]

On the issue of the empty tomb proving resurrection, I don't think I would put all my eggs in that basket. I noticed one time that there were four books in the New Testament that talked about the angel that supposedly  rolledthe rock away from the cave. They didn't agree on whether it was an angel or a man that was sitting on the rock outside the cave when others came to see that the body of Christ was missing. This is critically flimsy evidence to base an entire belief in the resurrection on. It seems more likely to me that it was men who rolled the Rock away. (And took the body) not an angel. It seems to me that over and over again these little magical upgrades were added to the texts.

LOL Rest easy; "all our eggs" are not in any one basket.

[Tarbaby]

Oh, okay. I thought I read above a discussion about resurrection and the idea that people were seeing Jesus after he was supposedly resurrected.

I also read a discussion about whether Jesus was God or the son of God. Christ even said he wasn't God. The idea was that anyone who was born again recognizes the issue of self identification. The idea that we are all God or manifestations of God. Not God in its entirety. As the centuries went by mankind, as it is wont to do, took the figurative and symbolic literally.

[Robert Ghostwolf's Ghost]

Oh, okay. I thought I read above a discussion about resurrection and the idea that people were seeing Jesus after he was supposedly resurrected.

I also read a discussion about whether Jesus was God or the son of God. Christ even said he wasn't God. The idea was that anyone who was born again recognizes the issue of self identification. The idea that we are all God or manifestations of God. Not God in its entirety. As the centuries went by mankind, as it is wont to do, took the figurative and symbolic literally.

Tarbaby, have you ever heard of docetism?  If not, check it out because it's an interesting theory about the nature of Jesus.

[Tarbaby]

Tarbaby, have you ever heard of docetism?  If not, check it out because it's an interesting theory about the nature of Jesus.

yes, Robert, thanks. I had heard of it but knew little specifics. Seems awfully complicated, eludes Occam's razor.

What I thought he was clearly trying to say (The idea of being born again) was that one discovers the god(The I am, unconditional love) inside themselves and fully realize that is the core of there being. What, in the East, was called "enlightenment".

[Robert Ghostwolf's Ghost]

yes, Robert, thanks. I had heard of it but knew little specifics. Seems awfully complicated, eludes Occam's razor.

What I thought he was clearly trying to say (The idea of being born again) was that one discovers the god(The I am, unconditional love) inside themselves and fully realize that is the core of there being. What, in the East, was called "enlightenment".

I'm no theologian, but that's pretty much how I interpret the message.  God is inside each of us and a church isn't a gigantic, garish cathedral; it's wherever you hang your hat, which was a crazy radical idea for the time. Unfortunately, the charlatans who profit from religion as a business want you to believe the opposite, because otherwise there would be nothing in it for them.

[Catsmile]

Tarbaby, have you ever heard of docetism? ...

yes, Robert, thanks. I had heard of it but knew little specifics. Seems awfully complicated, eludes Occam's razor. ...

... God is inside each of us ... which was a crazy radical idea for the time. ...

This line of discussion is akin to heresy in some circles, even today. Talk of free unconditional love, and God within us makes most Evangelical and Born Again Christians skin crawl. Such a radical idea sounds like it comes from some long haired, unshaven, sandal wearing, dirty hippie, that roves the land... oh wait. Jesus the Jewish heretic would most likely approve.

Some Christians hinge their whole belief system on the resurrection myth because it means they follow the word of God, not a wandering heretic Jew. The word of mortal Jesus just doesn't seem to carry the same weight, or authority as the father, son, holy ghost. Even in our modern times it seems who brought the message is more important the the message itself. Most of humanity hasn't changed much over a few thousand years. Cult of personality and style over substance.

Childish image negating the substance of my post, for the sake of others sensibilities.

[SciFiAuthor]

In the context of our exchange, not to make a point or demand a response but rather just because it's downright interesting, regarding the human brain...

http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-29093700

Totally interesting. I guess if you can generate a flash of light in someone's head, then you're not too far off from sending Morse code.

[ksm32]

Totally interesting. I guess if you can generate a flash of light in someone's head, then you're not too far off from sending Morse code.

If it comes down to                                        ._..

..than nothing was ever worth anything. What a pisser that would be.

[zeebo]

Hypothetical question.  If the bible said there is God, but that he's no fan of humans, so he's skipped off to some other universe, and we're on our own to make the best of this disasterous world, and there's no heaven or hell but just a dilapidated bowling alley in the sky and all they have to drink up there is flat orange soda, and sure they've got a Ms. PacMan but it crashes after the second level, etc. ... Do you think there'd be many believers? 

Personally I think people just like the message they hear, and feel better believing it than not, so they choose to "have faith". This is why the slogan "Good News" is more successful than say "The Disaster Report". 

Now in a sense, this might not necessarily be a bad thing, at least in that it gives believers some strength to cope with this challenging life.  But I'm sorry, that doesn't make it true. 

I think it's Neil deGrasse Tyson who says "That's the nice thing about science - it's true whether or not you believe it." 

[pate]

I just want all you non-believing atheists to understand one thing:

You cannot join the Illuminati if you are an atheist!  Belief in a higher power is a requirement.  So you have to swallow your pride, you godless communists, and confess a belief in a higher power if you truly want to run the world.

This has been a public service announcement from pate.