Started by ArtBellFan, April 08, 2008, 08:39:26 PM
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Voting closed: September 19, 2013, 09:57:21 PM
Quote from: FightTheFuture on April 10, 2014, 03:36:15 AM ''It was not of this world... that much, I am sure of'' Maj. jesse Marcel, sr., regarding the debris he found near Roswell in 1947Major Marcel was a smart cookie, and the intel officer of the base. He was also a straight-shooter. You can't convince me that he could not recognize the wreckage of a balloon, no matter how top secret it was.
Quote from: Uncle Duke on April 10, 2014, 05:22:36 AMNor will I try to do so. I agree Marcel is far and away the most credible "witness" in the Roswell saga, and that he probably believed he was looking at alien technology. In fact, he is the only person in the whole story I take seriously. Smart cookie or not, he could still have been wrong, however. In over 30 years as an engineer with the DoD, I worked with, and had work for me, hundreds of USAF officers. Wearing a uniform and having a duty title is not a guarentee of infallabilty in all matters military.
Quote from: FightTheFuture on April 10, 2014, 05:51:17 AMWell, I certainly agree. And that's based on my many years of wearing the uniform. Trust me, I knew some real boneheads during my time. The problem I have with the Project Mogul scenario is, those things were dropping out of the skies all over the place. People would come across them, and suspect nothing of them knowing that they were basically weather balloons strapped together in a train, with some type of listening device. If I am not mistaken, they even offered a reward for people contacting the authorities after discovering the wreckage.I don't know, really, I just don't have a solid opinion on what happened in July of 1947 in Roswell. I did have the opportunity to speak briefly with Stan Friedman, and let me tell you, he is a true believer.
Quote from: Uncle Duke on April 10, 2014, 06:32:22 AMAnd just to be clear, I wasn't implying Marcel was a bonehead, just that he wasn't in the know on Mogul. I can put myself in that scenario. My expertise was energetic systems, but my title was aerospace engineer. If somebody had asked me to identify some gee-whiz piece of ECM or other electonic gear off an aircraft, the odds would have been far greater I'd incorrectly identify it than do so correctly. Still, that job title would give me credibility to the uninitiated.Did not know Moguls were "dropping out of the skies all over the place," but it certainly makes sense the military would want to have any that did go down returned to them. Better to pay Farmer Bob a couple hundred dollars, then debrief him, than to have him show up with a top secret whats-it at the local newspaper and have the classified item pictured on the front page. Wouldn't surprise me they started that reward program after the Roswell episode.I have never spoken to Freidman, but I did attend one of his lectures several years ago. No question, he's all-in with the "it was a crashed alien ship" theory in which he has much invested. The thing I found disappointing about Freidman when I heard him was he spent a great deal of his presentation criticizing others whose positions on Roswell didn't mirror his own. I'm not just talking skeptics like Phil Klass, but other ufologists who buy the "crashed alien ship" explanation.I think we can safely say he wasn't a Phil Corso fan.
Quote from: Uncle Duke on April 10, 2014, 06:32:22 AMThe thing I found disappointing about Freidman when I heard him was he spent a great deal of his presentation criticizing others whose positions on Roswell didn't mirror his own.
Quote from: Uncle Duke on April 10, 2014, 06:32:22 AMAnd just to be clear, I wasn't implying Marcel was a bonehead, just that he wasn't in the know on Mogul. I can put myself in that scenario. My expertise was energetic systems, but my title was aerospace engineer. If somebody had asked me to identify some gee-whiz piece of ECM or other electonic gear off an aircraft, the odds would have been far greater I'd incorrectly identify it than do so correctly. Still, that job title would give me credibility to the uninitiated.
Quote from: Uncle Duke on April 10, 2014, 02:31:21 PM4) No need to show me receipts for money paid for returning crashed weather and/or Mogul balloons. As I said earlier, it makes perfect sense to pay someone to return classified and/or expensive hardware. In that case, you get the property back, you can debrief the finder, and you keep the story off the front page of the newspaper. If the Mogul Brazzel found had been marked with the "return for reward" chit, this whole story would probably have died as soon as he was handed his $25. I bet all of them afterwards were so marked.
Quote from: Uncle Duke on April 10, 2014, 02:31:21 PM5) Research the story of the Republic of China pilot who had to force land his U-2 in some rural community in the western US (Arizona? Utah? Colorado?). This was before the U-2 was public knowledge, late 50s or very early 60s. A strange craft makes a forced landing, a little guy speaking some unknown language and wearing a very weird "space suit" is seen by the locals. They think it's an alien craft flown by a man from outer space, but almost immediately a USAF transport arrives and extracates both the alien and his craft. The locals are debriefed and told to be quiet. It was many years later before they learned what they had seen......a classified aircraft flown by a foreign pilot (also classified we were training RoC pilots to overfly the PRC) that made a forced landing at their small town airport. The final story was finally told back in the 80s in an article in the Air Force Association's magazine. Frankly, I'm surprised some naive UFO researcher has not latched onto this story and claimed it's another Roswell.
Quote from: b_dubb on April 10, 2014, 04:51:10 PMA record of payments made for returning debris/equipment would indicate familiarity with the same equipment used in Mogul and would contraindicate the hypothesis that weather balloon debris could be mistaken for a crashed saucerA Republic Of China pilot had to crash land a U-2? Is this a hypothetical? Or are you saying the Chinese were flying U-2s? I'm confused.
Quote from: Uncle Duke on April 10, 2014, 05:10:07 PM1) Don't follow your point, either a weather or Mogul balloon could have been chitted the same way totally independant of the other. The idea is to get them back.
Quote from: Uncle Duke on April 10, 2014, 05:10:07 PM2) Yes, the USAF was teaching RoC pilots to fly the U-2. I went ahead and looked it up for you, here's the story:http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/lang/archives/2010/02/27/2003466699
Quote from: b_dubb on April 10, 2014, 07:19:32 PMThere was no difference between a mogul balloon and a standard weather balloon. A paper trail indicating locals were familiar with weather balloons would undermine the mogul story in my opinion. InsaneHere's a thought: is there anything about the military's explanation of the Roswell incident that is demonstrably false? The idea that crash test dummies created in the 1950's were somehow mistaken for aliens on the ground in Roswell is definitely a reach that borders on an outright lie. Maybe I need to pick up a copy of Klass's book. I personally don't think Roswell is worth wasting time on. The story has been so polluted it's difficult to get a sense for what happened and what was invented by people trying to sell a book or people trying to cover up an event. It's a little like the JFK assassination. I don't know that we'll ever really know what happened at either place. Re: Roswell ... I just can't accept that someone like Marcell would look at neoprene, tin foil and balsa wood and announce that a flying saucer had crashed. UD I think you and might have to agree to disagree on this one. I think there are better stories out there with better evidence. And since I've had my own sightings I'm not looking to someone else to tell me UFO's might be real. Experience tells me it's a real phenomena and we aren't being told the truth.
Quote from: Uncle Duke on April 10, 2014, 02:31:21 PM2) Don't understand why ever piece would have to be unidentifiable. Sure, had he found a vacuum tube with an NSN or part number stamped on it, that would have been obvious to him. Your arguement assumes Marcel would have been able to identify every component he saw to know they was man made. This goes back to 1) above.
Quote4) If June Crain is the woman who worked at WP and claimed to have seen a piece of alien craft, she is not credible to me based on the transcripts I've read on her interviews with a UFO researcher. It's been a while since I read those transcripts, but some of the things she said would not make sense to anyone who's been in/around the military. First she showed no understanding of security practices, at least the "need to know" aspects. I remember her saying she was either shown a piece of or told about the crash by a personnel officer. Why would a personnel officer have a need to know about something as cosmically classified as a crashed alien craft? She also said she was told classified information without violating security regs because she was told these things "outside security" or something like that. That makes zero sense. I think she's also the woman who claimed to have had a "Q clearance." This was (is?) a security clearance granted not by the military, but by the DoE (probably the AEC in the late 40s/50s) While I can understand some military types, like SIOP or nuke armament specialists, might have a Q, it makes no sense for a secretary who wasn't working on a nuke program to have that clearance. On the other hand, "Q clearance" was a buzz word used frequently in spy books/movies/TV programs back in the day, so it would have been something she would have heard about. If she's been able to name a real military clearance, one of the really cosmic ones not known to the public, then I'd have been impressed.
Quote from: area51drone on April 11, 2014, 03:32:58 AMAll someone has to do is recognize 1 piece (ie a stick of balsa wood) of Mogul and you would assume it was from earth, not a flying saucer. I'm not saying all officers are bright, but they aren't dumb enough to say "hey, this thing is from outer space." The average person is going to assume it's of earthly origin just from the get go. There would have to be a lot of things unexplainable in order to make someone say "holy shit, this is from outer space." It's been a while sine I read the book that James Clarkson wrote detailing the interviews he did with her, but her testimony was very credible, and from my recollection, in the back of the book the author included her military documentation. I believe her and I believe Clarkson's research on her background. I have the book still and can dig it up if needed. If you want to argue specific points of her testimony or background, then let's do that. If you haven't read the book, I suggest you get it because it has a lot more in there than I have ever found on the web.When talking about security breaches, you wouldn't have guessed that the president's security detail was out banging local prostitutes in their hotel rooms recently, or that the USAF's officers would be breaking security protocols when it came to our nuclear aresenal, but this shit can and does happen. I'm sure in the 40's and 50's security was more lax than today even. The point about the Mogul dummies is addressed by her as well. And, if the dummies were never part of the story to begin with, then why would the USAF even bring them up at the press conference? I think you are so extremely skeptical you are missing the obvious. Should we call you Michael Shermer? As for the U2 pilot, I'm frankly surprised that the locals would be assuming this plane was from outer space, but hey, it DID have a funny looking asian guy as a pilot. I'm sure not everyone was as gullible as the article makes it out to be, and for those who were confused, if an english speaking white guy had gotten out, people would have assumed it was from earth.
Quote from: FightTheFuture on April 12, 2014, 12:37:59 AMDon't listen to the Ufologist with a book to sell. Listen to the reluctant witness and evaluate his credibility.
Quote from: area51drone on April 11, 2014, 11:47:15 PMShermer is a joke. When I first heard him on the radio, I thought, "wow, here's a guy I can agree with." So much so that I subscribed to the Skeptics magazine. It is a terrible product, and it is clear to me now that Shermer is just looking to use skepticisim as a tool to make money. It's easy to poke holes at a story. Shermer and his cronies take one stance - that whatever they're writing about is wrong, and they're going to tell you why. You could give me any honest testimony about your own life, and I promise you that I could find some way for someone to say it didn't happen. There is plenty of evidence against the government's version of Roswell, just the fact that they had to come out and dismiss Roswell in the 90's as Project Mogul was itself evidence enough. If it had truly just been a balloon event, this story would have never needed such attention and would have never been published as a story in the first place. Look, I don't give a shit if you worked for the military or the DOD or anyone else. It takes more than one person's approval to publish a story of a flying saucer in the media. Marcel did not work alone. He wasn't the only person to be "fooled" by a weather balloon, if that's what you believe. Obviously you are unwilling to look at the June Crain story further, just dismissing her story because other researchers have lied. Just because there are a handful of liars out there doesn't mean that her story isn't true. I'll get Klasses' book and read it, but my guess is that it has its own agenda and makes the same claims that have already heard, which are really unsubstantiated in themselves and would be no more believable than any other witness testimony or UFO researcher's research. If all I look at is the original article itself, and the government's dismissal of it as Mogul, I am left to say "something happened at Roswell, and it wasn't a fucking balloon."
Quote from: Uncle Duke on April 12, 2014, 09:02:54 AM:5) While I agree with FtF's point about reluctant witnesses, they problem is the more reluctant the witness, the greater the probability that witness is going to have to be facilitated by a researcher hoping to sell a book (or get on TV/radio, speak at a conference etc.) It's a Catch-22.
Quote from: West of the Rockies on April 12, 2014, 10:28:38 AMNow that's what I call an avatar, A51!
Quote from: FightTheFuture on April 12, 2014, 12:30:10 PMWell, I would tend to agree with the premise you laid out, though there might be an occasional exception (Col. Holt, comes to mind). With that said, I was referring particularly to a few cases that involved police officers, one or two involving career pilots and perhaps one or two other encounters involving career military folks. None of the witnesses in the cases I have in mind ever reaped a financial benefit from their experience. To the contrary, they risked being ostracized by their peers while endangering their very careers.Additionally, in each case, there was solid evidence to corroborate the witness accounts. Not conclusive evidence, but evidence none-the-less. One such case was JAL 1628 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Air_Lines_flight_1628_incident. With Captain Kenju Terauchi, a 30 year veteran, fulfilling the requisite witness in accordance with my criteria: knowledgeable and a lot to lose. His official statement is fascinating.
Quote from: FightTheFuture on April 13, 2014, 08:23:26 AMDuke, have you ever considered writing a book on the subject? I think there`s a good bit of material there, especially if you include the POV from the Axis powers, who also experienced the "foo fighter" phenomena. It certainly is interesting.
Quote from: Juan on April 13, 2014, 10:37:33 AMAccording to Annie Jacobsen, the Roswell crash was a Soviet craft designed by the German Horton brothers of HO229 fame. Stalin at the time had no nuke, so she says he wanted to land an alien-looking craft near the US nuclear base at Roswell, Los Alamos and White Sands to spread fear. Something went wrong and the craft crashed. The US covered up to see what they could reverse engineer from the craft.