President Donald J. Trump

[Dr. MD MD]

It's a monarchy in all but name. How American is inherited wealth? The American Dream is supposed to be all about making it with just your own effort and wits, not growing up like some pampered brat. Take the Trumplets, who have shackled themselves to daddy rather than going out and doing it on their own. Although you claim to hate a monarchy, it's obviously where you feel most at home. Everything you say betrays it.

No one's falling for your sophistry. Certainly not me. Freedom is paramount in our constitution specifically to avoid that kind of tyranny. Furthermore, you're confused. While most monarchs are rich men, rich men aren't necessarily monarchs and certainly not in America (unless they've obtained the proper visa, that is  ).

[21st Century Man]

It's a monarchy in all but name. How American is inherited wealth? The American Dream is supposed to be all about making it with just your own effort and wits, not growing up like some pampered brat. Take the Trumplets, who have shackled themselves to daddy rather than going out and doing it on their own. Although you claim to hate a monarchy, it's obviously where you feel most at home. Everything you say betrays it.

If my family earned the money, it should stay in the family.  The government does not have a right to it.

[SredniVashtar]

No one's falling for your sophistry. Certainly not me. Freedom is paramount in our constitution specifically to avoid that kind of tyranny. Furthermore, you're confused. While most monarchs are rich men, rich men aren't necessarily monarchs and certainly not in America (unless they've obtained the proper visa, that is  ).

Tell me how being for inherited wealth (in other words, the status quo ante) squares with being anti-establiishment/swamp.

I'll take my answer off the air.

[Dr. MD MD]

Tell me how being for inherited wealth (in other words, the status quo ante) squares with being anti-establiishment/swamp.

I'll take my answer off the air.

So, if a family attains a certain level of wealth their establishment membership card will be mailed to them? 

[SredniVashtar]

So, if a family attains a certain level of wealth their establishment membership card will be mailed to them? 

They have an interest in preserving the system, not overturning it.

[SredniVashtar]

If my family earned the money, it should stay in the family.  The government does not have a right to it.

Emphasis on 'earn'. An infant son hasn't earned anything.

[SredniVashtar]

And another thing. If you want inherited wealth then you can also have inherited debt. If the deceased's obligations can't be met out of their estate then the survivors have to foot the bill for what's left. It would be immoral for the creditors to lose their money.

[21st Century Man]

Emphasis on 'earn'. An infant son hasn't earned anything.

I said my family which would include my forebears and descendants.  I would never will my wealth to the government.  I'd rather my children waste it than let the government do so.

[136 or 142]

If my family earned the money, it should stay in the family.  The government does not have a right to it.

Why and why not?

[21st Century Man]

Why and why not?

I don't need to explain why.  The government just needs to butt out.  I pay my taxes and that is enough.

[136 or 142]

I don't need to explain why.  The government just needs to butt out.  I pay my taxes and that is enough.

You don't need to explain it to yourself, but you generally do if you want to convince anybody else.  You are engaging in the logical fallacy of mistaking an opinion as a fact.

Also:
“It’s a great talking point when you have an administration that’s Democrat-led. It’s a little different now that Republicans have both houses and the administration.”

â€" Rep. Mark Walker (R-NC), quoted by The Hill, on the urgency of the federal budget deficit and national debt.

So much for Republican concern about debt and deficits. Republicans are an evil bunch of liars and anybody who still supports them is completely mentally challenged.  And those are facts and not opinions.

It's kind of sad, I keep trying to like you and I keep forgetting what a dimwitted tool you are.

[21st Century Man]

You don't need to explain it to yourself, but you generally do if you want to convince anybody else.  You are engaging in the logical fallacy of mistaking an opinion as a fact.

Only if you're a socialist and I'm not.  I'm not here to explain why it isn't the government's business. If you don't understand why it is not the government's business then you are hopelessly lost.  There is nothing I'm going to say that will convince you otherwise.

[136 or 142]

Only if you're a socialist and I'm not.  I'm not here to explain why it isn't the government's business if you don't understand why it is not the government's business then you are hopelessly lost.  There is nothing I'm going to say that will convince you otherwise.

I'm far from a socialist as you should know.  (Except it's evident you don't know, because you're clearly just throwing out the term 'socialist' with no idea what it means, because you've been told to use that by the people who you are tooling on behalf of.)  It's almost certain the value of your estate is much closer to $0 than to $1 million, and yet you're fighting here to eliminate the estate tax so that the United States can have a class of permanently privileged citizens (or for at least 3 generations anyway.)  To put it the way a friend of mine would say it "Yet you're not a tool?"

The United States is supposed to be a 'meritocracy' (which is about as far away from socialism as can be.) The idea of a semi permanent privileged class is about as complete an anathema to that idea as possible.

You aren't arguing against socialism or for capitalism, your arguing for an oligarchy.

BTW, why aren't you concerned about deficits anymore? 

[Gd5150]

What happens when  I win the 50 million in the state lotto?   Why should my estate have to pay taxes on that?

Well 1st, when you put in 1$, .34 cents goes to the actual prize pool. Government takes 66%.

Then when you win, have to opt for the 20 year payment plan, or lump sum. If you do lump sum, you cut your winnings in half. Because the advertised jackpot is actually a 20 year annuity the government uses to make the jackpot sound bigger. So now your 50 mil is really 25 mil.

Then you pay your 1st set of taxes, income taxes, now your 25 mil is 12.5 mil.

Then you spend it, which is another 10% in sales tax so your 12.5 mil is really about 11 mil.

Then you die, leave it to your children, and...the govt takes 5 million.

So In the end, the players put in 150 million, and the government gets 144 million in taxes. And the left will complain it's not enough.

[21st Century Man]

I'm far from a socialist as you should know.  It's almost certain the value of your estate is much closer to $0 than to $1 million, and yet you're fighting here to eliminate the estate tax so that the United States can have a class of permanently privileged citizens (or for at least 3 generations anyway.)  To put it the way a friend of mine would say it "Yet you're not a tool?"

The United States is supposed to be a 'meritocracy' (which is about as far away from socialism as there can be.) The idea of a privileged class is about as complete an anathema to that idea as possible.

You aren't arguing against socialism or for capitalism, your arguing for an oligarchy.

Nope, my estate is closer to a million than it is to zero.  You say that you are not a socialist but you clearly are.  You believe in the redistribution of wealth. I don't.  That makes you at the very least a socialist.

[SredniVashtar]

I don't need to explain why.  The government just needs to butt out.  I pay my taxes and that is enough.

In that case, don't complain about powerful interests crowding out the little guys. You're all in favour of it.

[136 or 142]

Nope, my estate is closer to a million than it is to zero.  You say that you are not a socialist but you clearly are.  You believe in the redistribution of wealth. I don't.  That makes you at the very least a socialist.

Socialism isn't redistribution of wealth, liberalism is redistribution of wealth.  Although socialists also believe in the redistribution of wealth, their primary concern is nationalization of certain key industrial sectors of the economy.

Of course, at present, the estate tax kicks in at around $5 million in the U.S.  So, it still doesn't effect you.  It's noble that you're fighting for a group of people when you aren't in that group, but it's also kind of odd that you're fighting for a group of people who really don't need your help.

Of course, these genuine elites want as much support as possible from tools like you.

[21st Century Man]

Socialism isn't redistribution of wealth, liberalism is redistribution of wealth.  Although socialists also believe in the redistribution of wealth, their primary concern is nationalization of certain key industrial sectors of the economy.

Of course, at present, the estate tax kicks in at around $5 million in the U.S.  So, it still doesn't effect you.  It's noble that you're fighting for a group of people when you aren't in that group, but it's also kind of odd that you're fighting for a group of people who really don't need your help.

Of course, these genuine elites want as much support as possible from tools like you.

So that is what it is all about.  You resent other people who have more than you.  Class warfare bullshit.  Fine, you live your life and I'll live mine.  Don't be bitter you're whole life, dude.  Rise above it.

[136 or 142]

So that is what it is all about.  You resent other people who have more than you.  Class warfare bullshit.  Fine, you live your life and I'll live mine.

"Class warfare" another bullshit phrase the genuine elites like their tools to use.  Being concerned about the existence of a (semi) permanent elite class who form an oligarchy is not 'class warfare' it's a genuine concern for the loss of democracy, and through rent seeking, the ability of this class to entrench their power permanently not just at the expense of everybody but themselves, but at the expense of capitalism as well.

For some verification of this theory: https://www.vox.com/2014/4/11/5581272/doom-loop-oligarchy

Of course, one of the ironies of the 2016 election, is that it was Trump who succeeded in expressing this concern raised at the time of that article by Thomas Piketty.  I appreciate that you said you voted for Trump only due to the Supreme Court, but it's certainly more than odd to see others here who complained about 'the elites' and the 'deep state' now calling for the elimination of the estate tax.

[136 or 142]

Don't be bitter you're whole life, dude.  Rise above it.

I suggest you read what you wrote about the government and then ask yourself whether your bitter or not.

[TigerLily]

Even if it's only a few hundred grand Get your hands out of my parents grave, government! They already paid their share in life. 

Thanks for the margarita but I'm not quitting until you understand the truth, the facts, the real deal behind the "death tax". You have to make no less than  $5.49 million to pay estate tax or $10 million per couple the way the tax code is written now. Repealing the estate tax does not have any benefit on a couple of hundred thousand dollars.


The estate tax is only paid on assets greater than $5.3 million per individual ($10.6 million per couple). Even billionaires pay nothing on the first $5.3 million left to their heirs.

The estate tax raised $8.5 billion in 2012 â€" less than 1% of the $1.2 trillion inherited that year.

The Walton family â€" which owns half of Walmart â€" has exploited a loophole in the estate tax to avoid paying $3 billion in estate taxes. This could increase by tens of billions in the future.

Casino magnate Sheldon Adelson has exploited a loophole that allowed him to pass $8 billion to family members and avoid $2.8 billion in estate taxes.   - cbpp. org   americansfortaxfairness.org

Now please tell me for the love of Midas why you hard-working middle-class Americans fight so hard and cheer so loudly to protect the multi-multi millionaires when you receive no benefit from the repeal of the estate tax but will add billions to the deficit if it is repealed.

Seriously, doc. Please explain this to me

[21st Century Man]

"Class warfare" another bullshit phrase the genuine elites like their tools to use.  Being concerned about the existence of a (semi) permanent elite class who form an oligarchy is not 'class warfare' it's a genuine concern for the loss of democracy, and through rent seeking, the ability of this class to entrench their power permanently not just at the expense of everybody but themselves, but at the expense of capitalism as well.

If the glove fits.....

Why are you in such a pissy mood much of the time?  You seem to constantly have a chip on your shoulder. Anyway, I wish the best for you. I've got work to do so adieu.

[136 or 142]

If the glove fits.....

Why are you in such a pissy mood much of the time?  You seem to constantly have a chip on your shoulder. Anyway, I wish the best for you. I've got work to do so adieu.

I don't suffer fools (or tools) gladly.  I'm also as hard on myself as I am on others.

I get 'pissed' when I see people commenting on things when they clearly have no clue and you clearly have no clue.

I agree with President John Adams, who was about as blunt as a person can be (not that I come anywhere to being in his class of brilliance):

“Be not intimidated...nor suffer yourselves to be wheedled out of your liberties by any pretense of politeness, delicacy, or decency. These, as they are often used, are but three different names for hypocrisy, chicanery and cowardice.”

I interpret that as clearly President John Adams was saying that those who often argue in favor of civility are those who benefit from the status quo, because they benefit when people are nice and don't complain too much, or are nice and don't point out absurd arguments.

[SredniVashtar]

I didn't know the threshold was so high there anyway. It's £325,000 here, which includes the value of any property.

[GravitySucks]

Thanks for the margarita but I'm not quitting until you understand the truth, the facts, the real deal behind the "death tax". You have to make no less than  $5.49 million to pay estate tax or $10 million per couple the way the tax code is written now. Repealing the estate tax does not have any benefit on a couple of hundred thousand dollars.


The estate tax is only paid on assets greater than $5.3 million per individual ($10.6 million per couple). Even billionaires pay nothing on the first $5.3 million left to their heirs.

The estate tax raised $8.5 billion in 2012 â€" less than 1% of the $1.2 trillion inherited that year.

The Walton family â€" which owns half of Walmart â€" has exploited a loophole in the estate tax to avoid paying $3 billion in estate taxes. This could increase by tens of billions in the future.

Casino magnate Sheldon Adelson has exploited a loophole that allowed him to pass $8 billion to family members and avoid $2.8 billion in estate taxes.   - cbpp. org   americansfortaxfairness.org

Now please tell me for the love of Midas why you hard-working middle-class Americans fight so hard and cheer so loudly to protect the multi-multi millionaires when you receive no benefit from the repeal of the estate tax but will add billions to the deficit if it is repealed.

Seriously, doc. Please explain this to me

How can it add billions to the deficit?  This is a liberal argument, much like "How are we going to pay for tax cuts?" as if all money belongs to the government to begin with.

The uber rich, like you just demonstrated with the Waltons set up trusts to circumvent the death taxes. Most normal people cannot afford that.

If you take a family farm of a few hundred acres and the machinery needed to work it, the valuation of that estate may be over $10million but none of that is in liquid assets. The estate tax cause the sale of the family farm just to pay the taxes.

The same with mom and pop businesses that may own a building or three and maintain a sizeable inventory. Again, no liquid assets but unless they have the buildings highly leveraged, the valuation may be over $10 million.

I do not favor a death tax, but if you want to snag the uber rich, set the limit at $200 million. That should keep family farms and mom and pop businesses out of the sights for another generation until inflation catches up.

[PaulAtreides]

Two theories doing the rounds about the swearing in of the Trump pick new FBI director tomorrow and Trump not attending (First president ever not to be there)

1) He won't be the centre of attention and he can't cope with that. Possible

2) There might be the awkward moment when the former FBI director who usually attends comes within speaking distance of ole blue eyes. Likely! 

Or both. 

3)  He's just a dick.

[TigerLily]

So that is what it is all about.  You resent other people who have more than you.  Class warfare bullshit.  Fine, you live your life and I'll live mine.  Don't be bitter you're whole life, dude.  Rise above it.

I get pissy too when I see you fine people being manipulated and constantly fighting against your own best interests. It's the SJW in me. I see this happening over and over to you conservatives.  Especially the Trump supporters. Just one tiny example:  The lies you are being told about the "death tax". Please see what I just posted to doc and give me your thoughts

[Yorkshire pud]

What happens when  I win the 50 million in the state lotto?   Why should my estate have to pay taxes on that?

***Once that is repealed it will never come back- too many multimillionaires in government on both sides.

When you win, you'll remember I'm you're most favourite Bellgabber, that's what.

[Yorkshire pud]

How can it add billions to the deficit?  This is a liberal argument, much like "How are we going to pay for tax cuts?" as if all money belongs to the government to begin with.

The uber rich, like you just demonstrated with the Waltons set up trusts to circumvent the death taxes. Most normal people cannot afford that.

If you take a family farm of a few hundred acres and the machinery needed to work it, the valuation of that estate may be over $10million but none of that is in liquid assets. The estate tax cause the sale of the family farm just to pay the taxes.

The same with mom and pop businesses that may own a building or three and maintain a sizeable inventory. Again, no liquid assets but unless they have the buildings highly leveraged, the valuation may be over $10 million.

I do not favor a death tax, but if you want to snag the uber rich, set the limit at $200 million. That should keep family farms and mom and pop businesses out of the sights for another generation until inflation catches up.

I agree in principle on raising the level to keep the 'family farm' scenario intact. But maybe not as high as 200, maybe 20-25 million. The uber rich WILL circumvent paying tax of any discription, so maybe they should have a family member permanently imprisoned in a dungeon to ensure the family pays their taxes? Discussion point?

[GravitySucks]

And another thing about the death tax. If you set any level, the government should not count on that money.

1. Will they send out death squads to knock off a billionIrre or two when they need money?
2. Will they keep them from donating to charity in their advanced years to keep that money from escaping the government quaffers?
3. Will Obamacare eliminate life extension measures if the government is running a deficit?
4. I thought all the uber rich made a pledge with people like Bill Gates and Warren Buffett to give away most of their wealth before they die. The government won't get their money through the estate tax if they go through with that.  Is that still a thing?