President Donald J. Trump

[GravitySucks]

I agree in principle on raising the level to keep the 'family farm' scenario intact. But maybe not as high as 200, maybe 20-25 million. The uber rich WILL circumvent paying tax of any discription, so maybe they should have a family member permanently imprisoned in a dungeon to ensure the family pays their taxes? Discussion point?

I am all for designating a child as a potential organ donor as long as it is done at birth, but not as bond towards an estate tax.

[21st Century Man]

I get pissy too when I see you fine people being manipulated and constantly fighting against your own best interests. It's the SJW in me. I see this happening over and over to you conservatives.  Especially the Trump supporters. Just one tiny example:  The lies you are being told about the "death tax". Please see what I just posted to doc and give me your thoughts

I'm not even listening to any talking heads.  I've always been against the estate tax on principle.  A million or even 5 million is not much for a small businessman who is trying to succeed.  Cost add up fast.  I can go along with GS regarding taxing estates over 200 million dollars.  Seems like a reasonable figure but even then the tax rates should not be confiscatory.


You know where I come from, TL.  I don't like a large federal government.  Much of the governing should come from local and state governments where the government is closest to the people that are being governed.   If I have to pay more taxes, let it be to the state rather than the feds.

Now I really have to go but I didn't want to leave you hanging.

[SredniVashtar]

The uber rich, like you just demonstrated with the Waltons set up trusts to circumvent the death taxes. Most normal people cannot afford that.

There are lots of different trusts. People commonly used to hold half their property in a discretionary trust here before they changed the value of the tax threshold.

It's interesting that we have two parallel ideas running at the moment:on the one hand it's your duty to pay as little money to the government as possible (because they are all sucky criminals) while it's perfectly permissible to hound people for not genuflecting in front of an abstraction called 'America'.

[TigerLily]

How can it add billions to the deficit?  This is a liberal argument, much like "How are we going to pay for tax cuts?" as if all money belongs to the government to begin with.

The uber rich, like you just demonstrated with the Waltons set up trusts to circumvent the death taxes. Most normal people cannot afford that.

If you take a family farm of a few hundred acres and the machinery needed to work it, the valuation of that estate may be over $10million but none of that is in liquid assets. The estate tax cause the sale of the family farm just to pay the taxes.

The same with mom and pop businesses that may own a building or three and maintain a sizeable inventory. Again, no liquid assets but unless they have the buildings highly leveraged, the valuation may be over $10 million.

I do not favor a death tax, but if you want to snag the uber rich, set the limit at $200 million. That should keep family farms and mom and pop businesses out of the sights for another generation until inflation catches up.

The estate tax raised $8.5 billion in 2012 â€" less than 1% of the $1.2 trillion inherited that year.

Your farm family has $10 million gross not net. Just deprecation alone will wipe out most of that asset

"Note that you can give a $14,000 gift every year to as many people as you'd like. If you have three children, their three spouses, and 10 grandchildren, you can give each person $14,000, for a total of $224,000 per year that doesn't count toward your lifetime exclusion. Plus, if you're married, you can give $28,000 per person â€" a gift from yourself and another from your spouse. If you plan ahead and start distributing your estate for years before you pass away, you can literally give millions to your heirs, 100% tax-free." - Motley Fool

And it is the estate tax. It taxes a multimillionaire's estate not death.  Calling it something else misrepresents it

[136 or 142]

How can it add billions to the deficit?  This is a liberal argument, much like "How are we going to pay for tax cuts?" as if all money belongs to the government to begin with.

The uber rich, like you just demonstrated with the Waltons set up trusts to circumvent the death taxes. Most normal people cannot afford that.

If you take a family farm of a few hundred acres and the machinery needed to work it, the valuation of that estate may be over $10million but none of that is in liquid assets. The estate tax cause the sale of the family farm just to pay the taxes.

The same with mom and pop businesses that may own a building or three and maintain a sizeable inventory. Again, no liquid assets but unless they have the buildings highly leveraged, the valuation may be over $10 million.

I do not favor a death tax, but if you want to snag the uber rich, set the limit at $200 million. That should keep family farms and mom and pop businesses out of the sights for another generation until inflation catches up.

Do they have estate taxes in Russia?  I would expect an FSB disinformation officer like you to be able to answer that.

[Yorkshire pud]

I am all for designating a child as a potential organ donor as long as it is done at birth, but not as bond towards an estate tax.

There might be some ethical issue with designating a new born baby (however obscenely wealthy the family) as the family organ donar. But a bond idea might actually work if the threat is harvesting organs before death of the offspring?

[GravitySucks]

The estate tax raised $8.5 billion in 2012 â€" less than 1% of the $1.2 trillion inherited that year.

Your farm family has $10 million gross not net. Just deprecation alone will wipe out most of that asset

"Note that you can give a $14,000 gift every year to as many people as you'd like. If you have three children, their three spouses, and 10 grandchildren, you can give each person $14,000, for a total of $224,000 per year that doesn't count toward your lifetime exclusion. Plus, if you're married, you can give $28,000 per person â€" a gift from yourself and another from your spouse. If you plan ahead and start distributing your estate for years before you pass away, you can literally give millions to your heirs, 100% tax-free." - Motley Fool

And it is the estate tax. It taxes a multimillionaire's estate not death.  Calling it something else misrepresents it

You didn't explain how it added to the deficit. You showed two things.

1. There are too many loopholes to get around it.
2. It might not have helped reduce the deficit but it had nothing to do with increasing the deficit. That part is called spending. Spending increase the deficit.

In the eyes of the government, they don't worry about your estate until you die, so it is an death tax. You pay the tax after death, not while building your estate.

You can't gift money ahead of time to avoid the death tax unless you have the liquid assets to do so. In the examples I provided, there are no liquid assets to divert wealth from the family farm or business.

[136 or 142]

I agree in principle on raising the level to keep the 'family farm' scenario intact. But maybe not as high as 200, maybe 20-25 million. The uber rich WILL circumvent paying tax of any discription, so maybe they should have a family member permanently imprisoned in a dungeon to ensure the family pays their taxes? Discussion point?

Another way to do that would be to allow the inheriting 'family farmer' (which is actually on the endangered species list in the U.S) to pay off the estate tax over a number of years.  I'm surprised the U.S doesn't allow this, as Canada, and I believe most other nations do.

[TigerLily]

I'm not even listening to any talking heads.  I've always been against the estate tax on principle.  A million or even 5 million is not much for a small businessman who is trying to succeed.  Cost add up fast.  I can go along with GS regarding taxing estates over 200 million dollars.  Seems like a reasonable figure but even then the tax rates should not be confiscatory.


You know where I come from, TL.  I don't like a large federal government.  Much of the governing should come from local and state governments where the government is closest to the people that are being governed.   If I have to pay more taxes, let it be to the state rather than the feds.

Now I really have to go but I didn't want to leave you hanging.

It can help pay down the deficit. Or offset the costs of Harvey, Irma and Maria. Or pay for sorely needed infrastructure improvements including levees and seawall. Fifty-four percent of it goes for military spending. Or maybe even the Stupid Wall. All federal expenditures

[136 or 142]

You didn't explain how it added to the deficit. You showed two things.

1. There are too many loopholes to get around it.
2. It might not have helped reduce the deficit but it had nothing to do with increasing the deficit. That part is called spending. Spending increase the deficit.

In the eyes of the government, they don't worry about your estate until you die, so it is an death tax. You pay the tax after death, not while building your estate.

You can't gift miney ahead of time to avoid the death tax unless you have the liquid assets to do so. In the examples I provided, there are no liquid assets to divert wealth from the family farm or business.

No, the estate or the inheritors pay the tax, you liar.

As to the deficit, it's simple math.  If you have two numbers that you are subtracting, and you reduce one of them, the resultant answer will be bigger.  If you want to eliminate the estate tax, tell me what spending or other tax deductions you'd cut.  Certainly the Republican Party hasn't done so.

I guess in Russia you're not up on the Congressional debates.

[136 or 142]

It can help pay down the deficit. Or offset the costs of Harvey, Irma and Maria. Or pay for sorely needed infrastructure improvements including levees and seawall. Fifty-four percent of it goes for military spending. Or maybe even the Stupid Wall. All federal expenditures

54%?  It's at most 1/4.

[GravitySucks]

It can help pay down the deficit. Or offset the costs of Harvey, Irma and Maria. Or pay for sorely needed infrastructure improvements including levees and seawall. Fifty-four percent of it goes for military spending. Or maybe even the Stupid Wall. All federal expenditures

So set it at $200 million and eliminate the loopholes.

And hope the uber rich dont give it all away to charity before they die.

[GravitySucks]

54%?  It's at most 1/4.

Some people get confused over the budget for discretionary spending and the total federal budget which includes any payments towards the debt.

Or 8 should say interest on the debt.

[136 or 142]

So set it at $200 million and eliminate the loopholes.

And hope the uber rich dont give it all away to charity before they die.

The oligarchy or the genuine elites, the people you work for at the FSB, aren't about to give their money to charity.

[GravitySucks]

The oligarchy or the genuine elites, the people you work for at the FSB, aren't about to give their money to charity.

I haven't looked at it recently, but this is what I was talking about.

https://givingpledge.org/

[TigerLily]

You didn't explain how it added to the deficit. You showed two things.

1. There are too many loopholes to get around it.
2. It might not have helped reduce the deficit but it had nothing to do with increasing the deficit. That part is called spending. Spending increase the deficit.

In the eyes of the government, they don't worry about your estate until you die, so it is an death tax. You pay the tax after death, not while building your estate.

You can't gift money ahead of time to avoid the death tax unless you have the liquid assets to do so. In the examples I provided, there are no liquid assets to divert wealth from the family farm or business.

All things being equal If $8.5 billion isn't raised it adds to the deficit. Or you can take $8.5 billion out of healthcare so the poor billionaires can have it instead

You can gift ahead through trusts not paid out until your death

Your inheritors pay off estate tax on your estate at your death. You do not pay a death tax on your death

Edit. Don't you know an accountant who can explain this to you?

[Yorkshire pud]

Another way to do that would be to allow the inheriting 'family farmer' (which is actually on the endangered species list in the U.S) to pay off the estate tax over a number of years.  I'm surprised the U.S doesn't allow this, as Canada, and I believe most other nations do.

Slightly off topic but all parties both in the UK and the US preach about small businesses are the backbone of the country. Yet in the US the huge corporates run the joint. Four airlines, THREE major car hire companies and many 'small' companies that all come under the umbrella of a massive group. And of course (airlines for example) they dictate what you'll get for your $, because they know you have very little alternative. They trounce competition. And we pay.

[136 or 142]

I haven't looked at it recently, but this is what I was talking about.

https://givingpledge.org/

I'm aware. Paul Singer, The Koch Brothers, Sheldon Adelson... aren't going to give 99% of their estates to charity.

[GravitySucks]

All things being equal If $8.5 billion isn't raised it adds to the deficit. Or you can take $8.5 billion out of healthcare so the poor billionaires can have it instead

You can gift ahead through trusts not paid out until your death

You pay off estate tax on your estate at your death. You do not pay a death tax on your death

Edit. Don't you know an accountant who can explain this to you?

A deficit is based on more expenditures than projected income. You cannot budget for when someone is going to die and what their estate will be worth on that date. The death tax is a windfall to the government. It can not create a deficit. Only deficit spending can create a deficit.

As a windfall, it should be earmarked for paying down the national debt. NOT factored into a FY budget.

[GravitySucks]

Slightly off topic but all parties both in the UK and the US preach about small businesses are the backbone of the country. Yet in the US the huge corporates run the joint. Four airlines, THREE major car hire companies and many 'small' companies that all come under the umbrella of a massive group. And of course (airlines for example) they dictate what you'll get for your $, because they know you have very little alternative. They trounce competition. And we pay.

AsTom Price just proved, the big guys can still do it cheaper.

And if the big guys didn't have to worry about a 35% income tax and 40% fuel taxes, maybe even cheaper.

[136 or 142]

Slightly off topic but all parties both in the UK and the US preach about small businesses are the backbone of the country. Yet in the US the huge corporates run the joint. Four airlines, THREE major car hire companies and many 'small' companies that all come under the umbrella of a massive group. And of course (airlines for example) they dictate what you'll get for your $, because they know you have very little alternative. They trounce competition. And we pay.

This is certainly the case.  There was a big load of nonsense in both Canada and the United States from the small business lobby about 'when big business was cutting jobs small business was adding jobs.'

What they never mentioned is that was a result of big business 'outsourcing' which means that things that big businesses used to do in-house, they now contracted out to smaller businesses who specialized in that one thing (accounting, human resource staffing...)  So, it was the same jobs, but with new bosses (and generally with lower pay.)  This had nothing to do with 'small business innovation.' 

I have nothing against small businesses, I just don't care for dishonest puffery.

[136 or 142]

A deficit is based on more expenditures than projected income. You cannot budget for when someone is going to die and what their estate will be worth on that date. The death tax is a windfall to the government. It can not create a deficit. Only deficit spending can create a deficit.

As a windfall, it should be earmarked for paying down the national debt. NOT factored into a FY budget.

I guess in Russia they don't have actuarial tables. 
Of course, when Al Gore suggested earmarking the surpluses (what he referred to as a 'lock box') the Republicans said was terrible because the surpluses were 'over-taxation.'

Nobody is going to earmark the income from the estate tax, and that sort of thing is all just a shell game anyway.

[136 or 142]

AsTom Price just proved, the big guys can still do it cheaper.

And if the big guys didn't have to worry about a 35% income tax and 40% fuel taxes, maybe even cheaper.

The effective corporate income tax rate is between 21-27%

[Yorkshire pud]

AsTom Price just proved, the big guys can still do it cheaper.

And if the big guys didn't have to worry about a 35% income tax and 40% fuel taxes, maybe even cheaper.

Airline profits are through the roof and the service is worse. Airlines pay no duty on fuel. And with only four in the US, if say UA is the only carrier to where you want to go you pay what they say, you can't shop around. Internal short haul airfares in the US are nearly on a par with flying across from SFO to Heathrow.

[136 or 142]

Airline profits are through the roof and the service is worse. Airlines pay no duty on fuel. And with only four in the US, if say UA is the only carrier to where you want to go you pay what they say, you can't shop around. Internal short haul airfares in the US are nearly on a par with flying across from SFO to Heathrow.

Of course, I don't know what additional specific industries this would happen to with a cementing of a permanent genuine elite class in the United States with the elimination of the estate tax and the inability to limit campaign funding or lobbying, but this is what can be expected to happen a great deal more if the estate tax is eliminated.

I haven't flown in about 40 years, so I don't know if that's what the airline industry is like in the U.S, though.  Also, if Trump succeeds with bringing back tariffs to any great extent, with the addition of almost certainly bringing on a Trumpcession, you can also forget about the ability of foreign companies to compete with this permanent genuine elite ownership class.

[GravitySucks]

Edit. Don't you know an accountant who can explain this to you?

I have found myself explain math to accountants my whole life.

You can use the death tax to reduce a deficit, but if someone doesn't die or if someone uses a loophole, that did not create the deficit. Deficit spending created the deficit.

[TigerLily]

A deficit is based on more expenditures than projected income. You cannot budget for when someone is going to die and what their estate will be worth on that date. The death tax is a windfall to the government. It can not create a deficit. Only deficit spending can create a deficit.

As a windfall, it should be earmarked for paying down the national debt. NOT factored into a FY budget.

My original point was to make sure people like Doc know they are not paying any tax - death or estate - on a measly couple hundred thousand dollars. That it only affects multimillionaires like you not middle class shlubs like Doc and me

[136 or 142]

I have found myself explain math to accountants my whole life.

You can use the death tax to reduce a deficit, but if someone doesn't die or if someone uses a loophole, that did not create the deficit. Deficit spending created the deficit.

Yes, Russia must really not be aware of actuarial tables.

[GravitySucks]

The effective corporate income tax rate is between 21-27%

Ok. Factor in the army of accounts and the overhead involved with the tax avoidance schemes. I have consulted with many companies that spent a hell of a lot more money avoiding tax than if they had just paid it.

This is the need for the tax code overhaul.

[136 or 142]

Ok. Factor in the army of accounts and the overhead involved with the tax avoidance schemes. I have consulted with many companies that spent a hell of a lot more money avoiding tax than if they had just paid it.

This is the need for the tax code overhaul.

Or maybe these companies just need smarter executives.

Of course, I don't know if what you say is true or not.

I don't support corporate income taxes anyway.  Just tax all dividends and capital gains at the 'normal rate.' 

However, corporate income taxes and the estate tax are two completely separate taxes.