Guns

[Ben Shockley]

I called you a coward because..well.. you are a coward [presumably based on FTF's contention that I] resort to the most base, Ad hominem rhetoric without the slightest notion of what you`re saying.

Why doesn't it make me a "compulsive gambler" or "serial philanderer" instead?  Those are "character flaws," too.  What's the diff?

it`s just a natural instinct with you.

You on the other hand, do not resort to "ad hominem" attack.

I remind you -- you didn`t say "some" TEA partiers, you said "TEA partiers" in general... Go back and read what you said in the quote with which I took umbrage.

No, asswipe, you go back and read, and try it with "comprehension" turned ON and "special defensive discernment" turned OFF.
I specifically referenced an ad appearing at that moment in the site, which proudly proclaimed that it was placed by a Tea Party organization, and which push-polled to "Impeach Obama?"  I rhetorically asked "on what charges?" then very logically suggested that his being (half-)Black wouldn't cut it, BUT / ALTHOUGH that is 1) apparently (to me) all they have, and 2) apparently (to me) all they think they need.  That was my observation.  That was and is my opinion.  You are free to offer facts to refute it.  You did not-- because I frankly think you cannot and know you cannot.  Regardless, you went directly to weak-ass personal attacks.

In response to those, I did in fact indicate that I thought that "Tea Partiers" in general are racists, though I also clearly noted with well-deserved sarcasm that I had NOT suggested that broad characterization in my initial reaction to the push-poll ad.   You were also free to refute that broader characterization with facts, which you did not and still have not done-- which I maintain is because you cannot and know you cannot.

As for any "requirement of proof" on my part: I was offering my opinion of Tea Partiers.  I have seen sufficient evidence and applied sufficient logic to be 100% convinced, to my satisfaction, that the Tea Party is collectively nothing more than a bunch of stupid, angry racists.  I was not attempting to convince you or anyone else, only offering my opinion.  I am not required to offer proof.   Nor, frankly, are you: however, if you felt that my opinion was factually misinformed and factually falsifiable you might have offered contradictory evidence in an attempt to change my opinion.  I am amenable to change.  But you demonstrated no interest in factually changing my opinion; only in shouting me down.
Mister, do you think that this country is NOT HIP to what the "Tea Party" is?  Do you think that you are going to change the mind of someone who shared my opinion, and make them think
  "Wow, that FTF sure throws a mean insult!  I guess them TPers are full of love after all!  FTF's fact-free anger has sure upped my opinion of that group he presumes to speak for!"

Ain't gonna happen that way, Mister.  And I am not going to 1) change my opinion, nor 2) stop voicing my opinions, on the basis of YOUR ad hominem attacks (whether or not you think you make them).

[Foodlion]

Sorry, but I'm resurrecting this thread because this video that I've come across was too good to pass up.
A good lesson can be learned from Australia.
Gun Control - Watch What Happens When Guns Are Banned.

[Foodlion]

I scoured the web trying to find a valid debate on the side of anti-gun rights. I came up empty.

Maybe some one like Yorkshire can post something that would show the opposing sides view backed with raw data?

[albrecht]

I don't want guns "all the time" but first reason I would say is idiots who let their abused pitbull dogs out loose to savage other dogs, attack children, and kill livestock. (I blame the owners, not the dog by the way.) If I lived in a more urban environment I would certainly want a gun in my home to deal with other types of animals.

More philosophically, because we can. Just like why climb a mountain? Because it is there. And guns are pretty fun to shoot.

I don't delude myself that we could ever hold off, or defeat militarily, a "guvmint" gone rouge going after us (even the local police are better armed than most countries), or the UN, or the Russkies or the Chinese if they invaded-- but we could at least pick off a few of the leaders and make it interesting for them.

[onan]

There is a rational argument against guns. But to me, it seems that it would only be valid in a "perfect" world. The number of gun deaths in this country is troublesome. And not acknowledging gun deaths helps to keep the anti-gun rights side motivated.

I do think too many gun owners are overly fearful of the boogey man. The stats on having your home burglarized are small. But tell that to the family that has been burgled. I also think many gun manufacturers and allied sales pander to gun buyers. I have crimson trace laser sights, the ad I was shown shows a man of my age being robbed by a violent attacker while at an outside automated bank teller. It does happen, but again the odds are small. I think those kind of ads help to give the impression a gun will even the fight... more often than not in those circumstances it won't.

All that being said, I like owning guns. I have had firearms almost all of my life. I have never had anyone harmed, I have never been in a situation to fire at any assailant. And as much training as I do, I am still not sure I would be effective in a situation that required me to fire on another.

[wr250]

There is a rational argument against guns. But to me, it seems that it would only be valid in a "perfect" world. The number of gun deaths in this country is troublesome. And not acknowledging gun deaths helps to keep the anti-gun rights side motivated.

I do think too many gun owners are overly fearful of the boogey man. The stats on having your home burglarized are small. But tell that to the family that has been burgled. I also think many gun manufacturers and allied sales pander to gun buyers. I have crimson trace laser sights, the ad I was shown shows a man of my age being robbed by a violent attacker while at an outside automated bank teller. It does happen, but again the odds are small. I think those kind of ads help to give the impression a gun will even the fight... more often than not in those circumstances it won't.

which is why i advocate training upon purchase. so you can handle the weapon comfortably. if you lack the will/training to use it in a situation where you need to defend yourself, then dont bother, you will only be killed with it.

All that being said, I like owning guns. I have had firearms almost all of my life. I have never had anyone harmed, I have never been in a situation to fire at any assailant. And as much training as I do, I am still not sure I would be effective in a situation that required me to fire on another.

i feel the same.

[PB the Deplorable]

I scoured the web trying to find a valid debate on the side of anti-gun rights. I came up empty...

They look scary

[SciFiAuthor]

There is a rational argument against guns. But to me, it seems that it would only be valid in a "perfect" world. The number of gun deaths in this country is troublesome. And not acknowledging gun deaths helps to keep the anti-gun rights side motivated.

I do think too many gun owners are overly fearful of the boogey man. The stats on having your home burglarized are small. But tell that to the family that has been burgled. I also think many gun manufacturers and allied sales pander to gun buyers. I have crimson trace laser sights, the ad I was shown shows a man of my age being robbed by a violent attacker while at an outside automated bank teller. It does happen, but again the odds are small. I think those kind of ads help to give the impression a gun will even the fight... more often than not in those circumstances it won't.

All that being said, I like owning guns. I have had firearms almost all of my life. I have never had anyone harmed, I have never been in a situation to fire at any assailant. And as much training as I do, I am still not sure I would be effective in a situation that required me to fire on another.

You said it succinctly, and I agree that guns provide peace of mind rather than real protection. But I think people forget that the police can't beam in on a second's notice and never will. If you get robbed at gunpoint, you're likely fucked. Your gun probably won't do you any good, but there's a chance that it might so you might as well have one around.

The anti-gun movement is based on changing that. You will be safer if guns are illegal or controlled more than they are. You won't be in the US. There are a shitload of guns in this society that have no real records that trace them anywhere. We're talking over 100 million weapons. Those were not numbers that the UK, EU or Australia had to deal with. Legislating new controls, or even confiscating, has to deal with an arms proliferation unlike any other western country.

Gun laws won't do anything but create pains for law-abiding citizens and decrease their peace of mind. The logical thing would be to focus on are cultural problems creating gun crime. The gang bangers, the redneck shooting his wife for cheating and so on. We should be asking why these people do what they do in a truthful rather than political manner, instead of bickering about esoteric ideas about gun rights that have no real bearing on the problem at hand. Guns exist in society, that's a fact and it's not going to change. Our approach is like trying to treat cancer patients with a law that makes cancer illegal. It makes no sense.

[wr250]

Educate Me on Why You (or Others) Want All Guns All the Time

because people like this exist:

[Ben Shockley]

because people like this exist:

Onan, I will never "get" why you play soft and easy with these scum when I know that you know who they are.   That flag which they (pretend they) don't understand but love so much, posted by wr250, says it all.

[West of the Rockies]

Man, does that tool have any idea whatsoever how much of a cliche he is?  A mullet and a Confederate flag (no doubt draped over his secret club house/weapons vault)?  A tee-shirt tucked into early-90's running shorts? Punctuation/capitalization problems on his sign?  A huge bag of empty beer cans? 

Oh, someone will say the whole thing is a scam perpetrated by a liberal to make gunowners look foolish; I guess it's possible, but I doubt it.

[Ben Shockley]

Of course, he's the same "tool" that waved the Marine Flag along with the 1863 Battle Flag outside the WHITE House, right?

Same guy, right?  Hired by the same firm that put those hired nig... I mean, those Blacks hired from Seattle and Vancouver and Tokyo who were forced by DemocRAT goons to sit on top of those otherwise 2000-year-abandoned houses in New Orleans and make the government look bad, right?


GodDAMN, won't ruling become easy once that George Soros dies??  He's the fount of all evil, right?

[The Neverender]

Man, does that tool have any idea whatsoever how much of a cliche he is?  A mullet and a Confederate flag (no doubt draped over his secret club house/weapons vault)?  A tee-shirt tucked into early-90's running shorts? Punctuation/capitalization problems on his sign?  A huge bag of empty beer cans? 

Oh, someone will say the whole thing is a scam perpetrated by a liberal to make gunowners look foolish; I guess it's possible, but I doubt it.

Not a scam... But likely a posed picture... I'm pretty sure he's wearing a wig... He's checked almost all the cliches with a Halloween costume level of effort... It's someone having a laugh... Or trying to win a photo contest... Not originally a conspiracy by anyone left or right

[West of the Rockies]

Wait, you think I am some sort of Yoda of Misdirection?  I'll admit, I have reached out across the aisle repeatedly here, and I have been willing (without necessarily being prompted) to identify liberals I think are causing more harm than good, but such efforts are a result of a candid effort to find common ground.  I believe the nation works better when we work together.

  It all seems pretty pointless though, really.  There is no convincing "the other side" that their ideas are perhaps based on misinformation.  No matter what evidence is offered in support of something I believe in, it's no good.  The whole damn thing is very disheartening.  There are some notions that simply will not be proven to conservatives, such as that large swathes of the media are actually pretty conservative, that environmentalism is not just a whacky effort to trip the world towards communism, that the U.S. is NOT God's chosen land....

[West of the Rockies]

HEY WestOf ---- I was pretty mean with that term "misdirection."
I won't explain for the rightie proles here.  But from me to you:  wrong word.
For those who can follow: I just think W.O.T.R goes soft on the righties sometimes.....  I used a word that BADLY suggested that he did that as a matter of course....

Thanks for the clarification.  I have gotten the feeling for a while though that some of the progressive posters here do regard me as a bit of a hand-wringing concern troll urging everyone to just get along.  There is probably a bit of truth in that.

[Ben Shockley]

Wait, you think I am some sort of Yoda of Misdirection?

I am the Yoda of Mis-Statement.
Calm down.

[West of the Rockies]

I am the JarJar Binks of Over Reaction...  No worries, Ben--we're good.

[West of the Rockies]

I recall some ESPN sports reporter who would freqently say (when reporting on some athlete who'd committed a terrible error) that Player X would "drool the drool of regret on the pillow of remorse". 

[Ben Shockley]

offending post deleted.

W.O.T.R. -- sorry for the very bad wording.

[West of the Rockies]

Oh, it is on!

[b_dubb]

Man, does that tool have any idea whatsoever how much of a cliche he is?  A mullet and a Confederate flag (no doubt draped over his secret club house/weapons vault)?  A tee-shirt tucked into early-90's running shorts? Punctuation/capitalization problems on his sign?  A huge bag of empty beer cans? 

Oh, someone will say the whole thing is a scam perpetrated by a liberal to make gunowners look foolish; I guess it's possible, but I doubt it.

When I see shit like this I assume that it's meant to be ironic

[NowhereInTime]

When I see shit like this I assume that it's meant to be ironic

Yeah, doesn't this seem like some smart-ass kid thing to do?

[Ben Shockley]

Yeah, doesn't this seem like some smart-ass kid thing to do?

No, Nowhere and b_dubb.... I swear that y'all are giving too much credit to the rednecks.  That is REALLY how they look!

[NowhereInTime]

No, Nowhere and b_dubb.... I swear that y'all are giving too much credit to the rednecks.  That is REALLY how they look!

I admit I've run into people like this when I was in Ohio (they were all from across the river in Covington and points south) and even here in CT in New Milford, but this picture is so asinine as to defy acceptance. 
Worse, I'll bet Hilljack Sam is on various forms of public assistance complaining about people on public assistance.

[Ben Shockley]

...I'll bet Hilljack Sam is on various forms of public assistance complaining about people on public assistance.

Right.
Everthang about GUMMINT is wrong and a damn fraud, goddamnit!!  'Cept THEIR checks!!

[Ben Shockley]

Excuse me, folks.  Let me quote myself, to describe the American "Tea Party" --

Everthang about GUMMINT is wrong and a damn fraud, goddamnit!!  'Cept THEIR checks!!

Got that?

[onan]

Onan, I will never "get" why you play soft and easy with these scum when I know that you know who they are.   That flag which they (pretend they) don't understand but love so much, posted by wr250, says it all.

Great question. The answer is best given in person while watching the sun set.

First, I don't hang with low brows. But they are always around. I am not going to change that. There is a convenience store a few miles from my house that has a confederate flag in the window with the words "heritage not hatred" written on the window below it.

The people I normally visit a range with are doctors, a few other nurses, my son and his friends. Some of them are conservative... a few in the PB range. But they are all respectful and there is more to them than who they voted for. I remember when that didn't matter.

I concede, when I visit a gun shop or store, there are many that are quick to blame everything on liberal-commie-homo agendas planted by Muslims. Again, I can't change that.

I believe WR was suggesting he needed to defend himself against that type.

And yes I know some people on government assistance that think everyone else is cheating the system.

[The Neverender]

A hand written cardboard sign that shows no signs of aging, weathering, or water damage is in perfect condition, duct taped to a shed (because that tape would never peel off during or immediately after the first rain storm) becomes the back ground to the subject of this photograph: a quintessential modern "redneck" stereotype. This man was caught in his natural condition, carrying around two firearms in his back yard. The photographer must have been well camouflaged to take this photograph of an unobserved "redneck" going about his day.

I'm sure there is absolutely no chance that this man created a cardboard sign, then got his guns out of the house, and had his buddy take a picture (if you are aware of the photo being taken, and you are actively posing for it... which he is because he's pointing at the sign with his rifle... then it is a staged photo)

if you think that is a snap shot of a redneck just going about his day and not posing for the camera.... i've got a dead bigfoot in a cooler for sale

       

[Foodlion]

because people like this exist:

If that wasn't done in satire, I'd say you could also use this argument to a reason for opposing transgendered people (which I'm not) if it were because they didn't fit the "normal" profile.
I don't care if the guy was sporting a full out drag covered in mud, It wouldn't bring reason to make me think he was doing anything wrong other than being an oddball.

Regardless, I'm much more worried about our country abusing it's power against its unarmed nation (much like Nazi Germany did) than a bunch of southern boys showing how well they can fire their weapons at beer cans.

Maybe you think that using Nazi German as an example is too far fetched? I don't.
Take a look at Venezuela. Hugo Chavez was voted as President in 1999, much the same as Hitler was.
He became a dictator much the same as Hitler. Though the Venezuelan gun ban was implemented AFTER Chavez died, that was only because he wasn't living long enough to see it through. Hitler disarmed, then took full control over Germany.
Hugo started slightly different. He was voted into power then started confiscating companies and wealth. After Venezuela implemented the ban of civilian arms the murder rate skyrocketed as well as other violent crimes.

Who else also made private gun ownership illegal? Stalin, Mao Zedong, Fidel Castro, and Kim Jong IL.
It's a trend of taking away the civilians power in reinstate more government power.
Mexico and South Korea are both also worth mentioning.
I saw a document on Mexico's gun policy. Though it's not illegal for civilians to own firearms. It's so hard to get licensed that most believe the system is broken if not corrupt. Look at Mexico's crime today... actually, don't... It's full of blood, guts, and death.

South Korea on the other hand doesn't have a large crime rate. Gun ownership in South Korea is not illegal, however you must register the gun and yourself, and once completed you will have to keep your firearm locked up in the local police station.

I lived in South Korea for a little over a year. The people there are very peaceful, and I think it's well exempt of violence only because it's a country rich in tradition and respect for each other. Something very uncommon around the world.

[Ben Shockley]

...if you think that is a snap shot of a redneck just going about his day and not posing for the camera.... i've got a dead bigfoot in a cooler for sale

WOW, sweetie, you sure shut me down!!  I guess I don't know WTF I grew up around.  I guess I don't know WTF I live around.
Because your photo may be of a fake person, I have no idea who TF I live around.  NICE!!
I still invite you to come on down to south Alabama or Florida panhandle.

Nothing bugs me more in an online forum than people telling me that I don't know what I know.