Guns

[analog kid]

From a scientific point-of-view, and without reiterating the myriad of symptoms that do not address the problem but only stand to make people feel like they're acting intellectual and well-reasoned (but do absolutely nothing positive or remedial), what it is that changed in America in the last 50-years or so, that we've become a country infected by Jerry Springer civility, worse racism than ever before, abject disrespect for life and/or other people, and the mind-boggling increase in the rate of murder and other crimes such as "the knock out game", and the exponential growth of fatherless-single-parent-families - and that is just tip of the iceberg.

It surely isn't the teachings of Jesus or Christianity that is the catalyst for all of these atrocities. Has to be something else that has taken place in America. Now, if we can have an honest discussion about what the cause for the problems are, I'll be polite, if you have the balls to be honest...

Crime has been steadily dropping for decades and hit the lowest point in 20 years in 2011. People are arguably more tolerant than ever before in recorded history. As far as religion is concerned, the world is full of examples that the more secular a nation is, the more peaceful and prosperous it is, while the reverse is true the more religious a nation is. The animal kingdom is full of examples of morality being innate and sometimes beneficial to the survival of a species. Bigots like the old guy in Duck Dynasty aren't offering anything positive or constructive to anyone. He and his ilk accomplish nothing but kindling bronze age superstition and ignorance. The teachings of Jesus are a good moral guideline, but boil them down, remove the superfluous stuff, and you're left with simply the golden rule. Which is all that's really necessary and which Confucius offered much more eloquently 300 years before Christianity existed. If Christianity were the answer for crime rates or general immorality, there would currently be a far less percentage of Christians in prison, but the highest percentage of the prison population belongs to Protestants, followed by Catholics.

[Quick Karl]

You completely missed the point.

[analog kid]

Christianity isn't the catalyst for the "mind-boggling increase in the rate of murder and other crimes."

Since I know of no one making the claim that Christianity causes an increase in crime, I'm presuming your point is the lack of it does. It's also basically what Billy-Bob Caldwell in your avatar is preaching. Which there is no increase, so, that you're starting from in incorrect premise, it doesn't really matter what point you have to make. It's going to be faulty.

[Yorkshire pud]

Christianity isn't the catalyst for the "mind-boggling increase in the rate of murder and other crimes."

Since I know of no one making the claim that Christianity causes an increase in crime, I'm presuming your point is the lack of it does. It's also basically what Billy-Bob Caldwell in your avatar is preaching. Which there is no increase, so, that you're starting from in incorrect premise, it doesn't really matter what point you have to make. It's going to be faulty.

You know don't you that Karl will make up and attribute statements to those who disagree with him, and use them to try and make his point? That no-one has blamed Jesus for life's ills doesn't mean he won't say they have. The closest that I've come is saying that religion has been used perversely over generations. In other words any crime, any bigotry, any genocide has and will continue to be 'justified' by saying it's 'gods will'.

It's especially ludicrous when anyone states the bible (or whichever work of fiction they live by) should be followed verbatim. However they don't really mean that, because some of it decrees quite unpleasant mores to live by.

I asked Karl to quote Jesus, and he hasn't.

[Quick Karl]

You can't possibly be this stupid, can you Pud?

Do people have to spell out every fucking nuance to you on everything, or do you just pretend to be stupid here to avoid the topic in my question of cause?

For you idiots that failed basic reading comprehension my reference to Christianity was not a promotion of it, it was merely a statement of the FACT that you cannot blame the social toilet of today on Christianity, even though I knew many would try, with some quantum leap in kindergarten-logic.

I think you and others are chicken shit to admit that most of the social policies you support are precisely the cause for the breakdown in civility, and so your only retort is to avoid it.

[Yorkshire pud]

You can't possibly be this stupid, can you Pud?

Do people have to spell out every fucking nuance to you on everything, or do you just pretend to be stupid here to avoid the topic in my question of cause?

For you idiots that failed basic reading comprehension my reference to Christianity was not a promotion of it, it was merely a statement of the FACT that you cannot blame the social toilet of today on Christianity, even though I knew many would try, with some quantum leap in kindergarten-logic.

"Stupid, stupid, you idiots, kindergarten" ...And your qualifications for making those observations, are?

No-one has blamed the 'social toilet of today' on Christianity. However, certain Christians (and not just Christians) have blamed the worlds ills on not subscribing to their particular version of religion. If that wasn't the case, the US TV network wouldn't have 24/7 evangelists telling anyone who doesn't make them richer repent their 'sins', that they'll be subject to eternal damnation.

In other words, using the language or projecting their own guilt on others for their own nefarious goals. Show me an evangelist, and I'll show you a hypocrite.

[Quick Karl]

"Stupid, stupid, you idiots, kindergarten" ...And your qualifications for making those observations, are?

No-one has blamed the 'social toilet of today' on Christianity. However, certain Christians (and not just Christians) have blamed the worlds ills on not subscribing to their particular version of religion. If that wasn't the case, the US TV network wouldn't have 24/7 evangelists telling anyone who doesn't make them richer repent their 'sins', they'll be subject to eternal damnation.

In other words, using the language or projecting their own guilt on others for their own nefarious goals. Show me an evangelist, and I'll show you a hypocrite.

Dumb ass - I'll make is easy for you:

What the fuck do you, in your Einstein-like wit, believe are the causes for the breakdowns in civility in the shit hole of England, and on the streets of America?

See if you can stay focused on this one, just this one time...

[Yorkshire pud]

Dumb ass - I'll make is easy for you:

What the fuck do you, in your Einstein-like wit, believe are the causes for the breakdowns in civility in the shit hole of England, and on the streets od America?

Are you completely unable in arguing a point without resorting to abusive pronouns? It says a lot about you. (Although I have several PM's from others who have pretty firm views about you, and haven't held back in their descriptions!)

But anyway: Einstein was a mathematician, not a comedian, but I digress.

Breakdowns in civility; Discuss.


In my opinion the reasons are many. Lack of education (at base level); parents far too keen to offload their base teaching of their children onto teachers. Teachers shouldn't have to teach children how to use a knife and fork, or have to clear up their (literal) shit. Teachers shouldn't have to face irate parents because they disciplined their offspring. Discipline.. It isn't kids born now, or even in the last twenty years that are the cause; It's the parents born before that.

Why? Well the reasons again are complex. For too long children were disregarded on every level when it came to decision making. My own parents were both born before WW2, and neither had any real say in what happened in their lives until they left school after the war. Then from having virtually no say they went to having to make choices that they'd had no real world preparation for. Sure, my father took up an apprenticeship, my mother a seamstress; But my father's engineering career was cut short by him being called up into national Service and he joined the RAF, and became an electrician. Again, he didn't really have to make decisions. He was told when, how, what his day would entail for five years whilst in the RAF. He wasn't alone.

Post that my parents met and got married. Then they faced the big wide world as a couple without outsiders, although my mother was very close to her mother. So they'd gone from birth to mid 20's pretty naive and inexperienced about things.

Compare that to today. Some children don't (and haven't done for decades) have the benefit of an extended family close to them (I did). Uncles, Aunts, cousins, siblings, grand parents, all of whom have helped me long the way and still do. I had school teachers who I wouldn't dream of calling anything other than 'Mr/Mrs/Miss/Sir, today in some schools pupils (Or as they're now called-students) call the teachers (maybe they're not called teachers now? Mate perhaps?) by their first names. That in my view breaks the necessary divide twixt authority and child. In my school I remember one (in five years) incident of a pupil threatening a teacher. Once. He was expelled.

These days teachers in the UK expel kids far more regularly because if they don't, it brings down their standing in the 'league tables' if they have disruptive pupils and non attendance. If the expelled aren't there, they can't fail to be there can they? Oh, this league table policy was introduced by the Conservative party to (this is the funny part) boost parents' 'choice' in which schools their kids attend.

The reality of course is that the housing near to good schools is considerably more expensive to not so well regarded schools. So the league table crap doesn't give choice, because the catchment area of a school will not allow for any child who lives outside the area whose parents' wish them to attend! Schools can only take so many children per year of course, so it's patently impossible for 2000 kids to go en masse (because of 'choice') if the intake that year can only be 300.

Children are bombarded with stuff that gives them the impression they're invincible. That they're more grown up than they really are. It's how some end up getting into really big trouble, because they find out that actually the dream is very different to the dreadful reality they find themselves faced with. Sure, at 14 we've all thought we knew everything we needed to know to face the world, it's only when we reach our thirties we don't know anywhere near what we thought we knew back then.

If it were possible, in my opinion Facebook et al would be un-invented. It isn't possible of course, and so we have to live with it; but sadly so do our children.

The so called 'celebrity culture' is also a big gripe of mine..People with no discernible talent being famous for well, being famous! The ones who should be revered are engineers, scientists, poets, tutors, great wordsmiths, philosophers, medical pioneers. The professor who pioneered the first test tube baby in the UK died and there was hardly a mention; yet some twat who kicks a fucking ball around and gets paid millions to do so is headline news, in my view, it's obscene. Yet some kids these days when asked what they want to become say 'famous'. It's enough to make me weep.

Social engineering has been brought up; and it's been suggested it's a 'Marxist' Stalinist' blah blah conspiracy. Is it? I'd say not. That social engineering happens and continues in places isn't in doubt, but if a town is closed down effectively because a multi national open up five miles outside and can undercut everything in the town, the town will die. Small shops and commercial industries are fighting a losing battle. These multi nationals aren't Stalin in a pre-fabricated metal and concrete shed; They're multi million pound and dollar concerns whose board of directors sprinkle Dom Perignon on their fries for fun.

I have no idea what the answer is to the above; and won't even begin to guess. But I'm also aware there are very many good things in the world. There are very many good people, some of whom I'll never meet, but they will make a positive difference to their community and wider world.
You want to insist on breaking things down to right/left; if only life were that simple, and people could be defined as such. How can anyone be defined by who they may or may not have voted for? But some really think that. Rutger on here thinks (if we take what he says as his real thoughts) that all liberals have a mental disorder.. In that case then half of the US electorate by his assessment are mentally ill; is that really the case? Yet if that is the case, why are they allowed firearms if that is one restriction to having one?

You did ask. I told you.

[Quick Karl]

You sure are good at listing SYMPTOMS of the problem, but you are ignoring the CAUSES.

[West of the Rockies]

Brilliant post, Yorkie... You touch on just a few of the reasons why the world is troubled.  It has much more to do with a load of complex issues, not just guns or gun control or so-called Marxism.  It is a Dune-like mix of politics, culture, corporate malfeasance and greed, environment, and such.  Black and white vision leads only to hatred and blame; it offers no feasible solutions.

[Yorkshire pud]

You sure are good at listing SYMPTOMS of the problem, but you are ignoring the CAUSES.

Oh if you're being deliberately obtuse so be it.. Read it again. I can't explain to the willfully dim.

[Yorkshire pud]

Brilliant post, Yorkie... You touch on just a few of the reasons why the world is troubled.  It has much more to do with a load of complex issues, not just guns or gun control or so-called Marxism.  It is a Dune-like mix of politics, culture, corporate malfeasance and greed, environment, and such.  Black and white vision leads only to hatred and blame; it offers no feasible solutions.

On the nail W o t R. It is very complex. But it'll be broken down to yes/ no, black/white, right/wrong, left/right,  by the usual suspects. 

[Quick Karl]

You are both rah-rah'ing each other because you know it is the very social policies you support that are more responsible for the breakdown in civility than anything else out there.

Use the 'scientific method' you use to justify your insults to Christianity, while you ignore the atrocities committed in the name of Islam - try to be objective and look at what has changed in the last 50-years and what the results are.

If, you have the guts...

[Yorkshire pud]

You are both rah-rah'ing each other because you know it is the very social policies you support that are more responsible for the breakdown in civility than anything else out there.

Use the 'scientific method' you use to justify your insults to Christianity, while you ignore the atrocities committed in the name of Islam - try to be objective and look at what has changed in the last 50-years and what the results are.

If, you have the guts...

Okay it's my turn to be vituperative. (no I won't give you the definition, ask a grown up to look it up for you.)

1) No-one has insulted Christianity; that you're so fucking idiotic and blinkered to accept that basic fact proves you only read what your limited understanding of English and comprehension in the round is capable of. In short, you're fucking stupid.

2) What has been said is that certain people use Christianity for their own perverse means and corrupt it (or cherry pick the bits that suit them) as they do with all religions.. I don't give a flying fuck which religion anyone follows, just don't use it as a guide to decree others' moral compass or use it to judge them by.

3) I'm an athiest. Now what that might mean? Oh yeah... I don't subscribe to ANY religion.  That includes Islam, Judiasm, Christianity, Jedi, or fucking Greek and Norse Gods.

That you can't get those basic parameters digested into your excuse for a fucking brain isn't my problem. That you're so fucking incapable of digesting those basic facts should show anyone you're incapable of rational thought, and shouldn't be allowed outside without supervision.

[Quick Karl]

Okay it's my turn to be vituperative. (no I won't give you the definition, ask a grown up to look it up for you.)

1) No-one has insulted Christianity; that you're so fucking idiotic and blinkered to accept that basic fact proves you only read what your limited understanding of English and comprehension in the round is capable of. In short, you're fucking stupid.

2) What has been said is that certain people use Christianity for their own perverse means and corrupt it (or cherry pick the bits that suit them) as they do with all religions.. I don't give a flying fuck which religion anyone follows, just don't use it as a guide to decree others' moral compass or use it to judge them by.

3) I'm an athiest. Now what that might mean? Oh yeah... I don't subscribe to ANY religion.  That includes Islam, Judiasm, Christianity, Jedi, or fucking Greek and Norse Gods.

That you can't get those basic parameters digested into your excuse for a fucking brain isn't my problem. That you're so fucking incapable of digesting those basic facts should show anyone you're incapable of rational thought, and shouldn't be allowed outside without supervision.

Awwww did I touch a raw nerve, Puddy? You can't face up to the fact that the socialism that started infecting our societies 50-years ago can be directly correlated to the break down in civility.

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

[Unquenchable Angst]

Sounds very nice, sir! May you have much enjoyment!  May I ask what neck-o-the-woods do you reside?

Upstate SC, 1/2 hour to NC, 15 from GA. Anderson----
Mauser; The bolt action just about all BA's have copied .
My Dad and I used to collect guns. Had several Lugers, Had an Enfield jungle carbine(loved the action on that one) Dad got real heavy on Colt commemoratives.
I would like to acquire a late Enfield after they went to 7.65 NATO. I had hoped to aquire an M1 from that lot coming back from Korea till BO shit on that. There are some that had been converted to 7.65 NATO  also. I would also love to find one of the Enfields that Gibb's Machinery  converted to .45-70.
I guess in time, I will settle to buy  the barrels I need for the 500 and then settle for one of the new bolt guns Mossberg is offering in 5.56 and 7.65 Nato that uses AR or M-14 magazines (respectively).
I would also like a 1911, perhaps 2 and convert one with that MECI kit into a carbine.
I wish Ruger could work out the problem they had with producing the 10-22 in 22WMR or Kel-Tec would get their new 22WMR carbine out that uses the magazine from their 30 round 22WMR pistol.
Then I also have some fascination for blackpowder guns also. and in a 'if I won lotto' moment I would love to have a nice Sharpes built by one of those two Montana outfits that build really good ones.
Then I would go to collect any J.M. Browning  design that is still in production.
I also rather fond of single action revolvers, blackpowder and smokeless.
Also collecting means and equipment needed to make my own blackpowders and gun cotton .

[Ben Shockley]

...We desire semiautomatic rifles because we are sexually frustrated ?  Do I have that right?  That's freshman level psychology class.  C'mon man.

In other words, because it's been suggested by psychologists including and since Freud, it can't be true?  The more widely accepted a notion, the less true it is?  C'mon man.

This is a standard right-wing defense, often seen in these political threads, rooted in anti-intellectualism and pure anti-empiricism.  Happens in regard to other stuff.  Like, some of these righties will sometimes pre-emptively cry "Yeah, next you'll accuse me of racism!"  Of course, if that's how you seem!  The fact that people call you something, or make a certain argument about you or your motivations, is not negated by the fact that you predict it or have heard it before.  No, those things tend to suggest that the observation is true.

In scientific research, repeatedly measuring the same value for a variable is known as reliability, and suggests that the research instrument (which here, is simply people's ability to form impressions of others) is measuring something real.
In other words, when you keep getting the same reaction from people, there may be something to it.  It's true of the "guns = substitute penis" argument.

[RealCool Daddio]

Awwww did I touch a raw nerve, Puddy? You can't face up to the fact that the socialism that started infecting our societies 50-years ago can be directly correlated to the break down in civility.

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Interesting you think society began to break down fifty years ago - right dab smack in the middle of the civil rights movement.  Or maybe you agree with the bigot in your avatar, who thought them colored folks were happier in the Jim Crow days.

[Sambo]

Men are the problem, not guns

[onan]

It is an extremely complicated issue (no really). On one hand, we have individual rights the the constitution guarantees. The other the guarantee of personal safety.

The statement, it isn't my fault another guy killed someone while using a gun, seems to be disregarded. But it is the truest of statements I read about gun violence. It is no less true however, that we have a very high (comparatively speaking) death rate by gun in this country. And personal values are all over the place. Because I want to have guns, in no way takes away my empathy for those that have suffered grief and loss. I do feel some of that grief as well. I am not sure how not owning my firearms would change that.

I get it though, there is a legitimate concern and dismissing that concern only causes more conflict between two groups. And that is a shame because in reality there are many more than two groups. I do think there could be a realistic consensus where everyone feels more comfortable and society feels safer. And that can be accomplished by more education and discussion, rather than continuing to see the other side as deluded.

[Quick Karl]

In Medicine, a symptom is the body’s way of letting us know something is wrong, and has to change, if we want to be healthy.

Same is true in society.

[Yorkshire pud]

In Medicine, a symptom is the body’s way of letting us know something is wrong, and has to change, if we want to be healthy.

Same is true in society.

Oh I get it now!; You're not brave enough to come out with it, so I will:

Put one parent families to death, blacks you don't like, Homosexuals, women who don't fancy you (That will be a lot of women I feel), anyone who has lost their job and doesn't have their own company within a week. Anyone who voted Democrat in the last twenty or so years,; Anyone essentially who doesn't fit your microcosm of the world and who you think are to blame for everything that is wrong.

[Sambo]

Men are the problem, not guns

[Sambo]

Watch professional sledge/sled hockey some day, and take notice of the tight situations when players are checking, or pushing and shoving takes place.  In a strange way you bear witness to the near uselessness of physical aggression. These men, with no use of their legs, strapped down to a sled, trying to fight with each other.  It becomes pretty clear that what you're witnessing is emotion borne of inhibitive frustration, to say the least. 

[Quick Karl]

Oh I get it now!; You're not brave enough to come out with it, so I will:

Put one parent families to death, blacks you don't like, Homosexuals, women who don't fancy you (That will be a lot of women I feel), anyone who has lost their job and doesn't have their own company within a week. Anyone who voted Democrat in the last twenty or so years,; Anyone essentially who doesn't fit your microcosm of the world and who you think are to blame for everything that is wrong.

You have serious emotional problems.

[aldousburbank]

You have serious emotional problems.

You have emotional serious problems.

[Quick Karl]

You have emotional serious problems.

You have Dyslexic-Tourette-Syndrome! 

[Yorkshire pud]

You have serious emotional problems.

And you have problems with your honesty, or rather lack of.

[Quick Karl]

Talking about the SYMPTOMS of a problem, might fill in some of your un-used time and make you feel good, but it does NOTHING to address the CAUSE of the problems, or discuss corrective actions.

You can get as girly as you like (I kinda think its funny), but all it shows is that you lack the courage to face the flaws that are inherent in your religion of social-engineering.

Reminds me of the guys that insisted Columbus was wrong, and the world was flat, in spite of the glaring evidence to the contrary...

[Yorkshire pud]

Talking about the SYMPTOMS of a problem, might fill in some of your un-used time and make you feel good, but it does NOTHING to address the CAUSE of the problems, or discuss corrective actions.

You can get as girly as you like (I kinda think its funny), but all it shows is that you lack the courage to face the flaws that are inherent in your religion of social-engineering.

Reminds me of the guys that insisted Columbus was wrong, and the world was flat, in spite of the glaring evidence to the contrary...

Oh fuck are you still here? Go on then Qunt, tell the class what the causes are and we can go for tea.