President Donald J. Trump

[Yorkshire pud]

Henry Ford knew the score.  You pay employees well so they can buy your product.  We have a lot of CEO's that want to put salary caps on lower-wage workers but have no problem raking in millions for themselves.

Exactly.

[Swishypants]

RE: Box Fan. The only solution is to find one of those old 70's metal ones. The big heavy ones that chopped the fingers off children, and lovingly restore the steel--paint it a lovely cornflower blue or harvest gold or avacado green--and rebuild the simple electrical motor. That TANK IS FIGHT! Do eeet! Goodwill and estate sales my-dude!

[Swishypants]

Exactly.

You are so fucking BRITISH! I want to slap you with a fish!

[Gd5150]

Henry Ford knew the score.  You pay employees well so they can buy your product.  We have a lot of CEO's that want to put salary caps on lower-wage workers but have no problem raking in millions for themselves.

Unfortunately neither party even discusses this. Raising taxes only slows the economy. Costs jobs, and thus lowers tax revenues. It has zero to do with raising wages. Unions create a huge lack of productivity, extort millions from employees, and are lockstep with the DNC.

A serious strategy to raise wages would be done via regulations that tied all levels of employmee pay via ratio to the top levels. In the 1950s the average CEO made 50-100x as much as their entry level employees. Today the ratio is 10,000:1. We have CEOs like Zuckerberg, Gates, Bezos, all Demokkkrats, all worth 50-100 billion, whos wealth is built on the backs of 10,000s of employers and customers. Because many at the top take no income, regulations would have to target wealth as well.

The political establishment will never address this issue through regulation because that wouldn’t empower them. Plus it would take money away from their friends and family. This is why more outsiders need to be elected to office.

The Republican answer is lower taxes across the board, which basically means the less taxes you pay, the less you benefit. The DNC answer is raise taxes which costs everyone, and blame the wealthy which helps no one but the DNC establishment.

These are only hypothetical ideas, that 30 years ago I’d never have thought necessary. But I’ve seen personally the insane disparity in pay with college graduates being paid $10.50hr while upper management is making 6,7,8 figures to sit in their office. The idea people work hard and deserve to make 10,000x as much as their bottom level employees is absurd. No one on the planet is worth more than a few million, and that’s real.

[PB the Deplorable]

No: that's what results from massive tax breaks for corporations and so called 'trickle down economics'...

You do know the US corporate income tax rate of 35% is the highest in the western world, right?

[PB the Deplorable]

... Which planet do you live on? Shareholders are the first consideration for a big company. That is business law. Shareholders (and the private equity firms therein) decide what path the firm will take and if they decide the board is going to shed jobs, then jobs they're going to shed...

How does that contradict anything I said about employees being the most valuable assets of a corporation?

[Lord Grantham]

Oh my. We're about to arrive at a consensus.  In the Trump thread. Its a page 2000 miracle.

[PB the Deplorable]

... Were? This isn't history, it goes on today. Ask why Trump and his daughter have their shit made in South East Asia and the the far east...It isn't because they love America...

The Trump family businesses need to compete just like any other businesses.

Between payroll taxes, income taxes, various other business taxes, often unreasonable union demands, EPA overreach, and any number of other costs and bureaucracy, many businesses have no real choice but to relocate factories and other low level work offshore.  When this happens, and the costs of doing business those companies incur drop dramatically, other companies almost have to follow suit or their products will not be cost competitive.

Most factory work is low level unskilled work, and having to pay a livable wage in the US for some of it, the minimum wage for some of it, and a union wage for some of it prices out our products when competitors are paying much lower elsewhere.  It's why we need America First policies when it comes to trade agrements and imports.

The Trumps are not immune to any of this.  As with most people running businesses, they see what's going on and why.  That they follow suit doesn't mean they think this is the right course for the US - it's about competing on a level playing field.

Instead of being the hypocrite you want to paint him to be, he's trying to get this fixed.  So your conclusion about their motives is invalid. 

[PB the Deplorable]

Were? This isn't history, it goes on today...

Again, you use the past sense...

What are you talking about here?

[albrecht]

The Trump family businesses need to compete just like any other businesses.

Between payroll taxes, income taxes, various other business taxes, often unreasonable union demands, EPA overreach, and any number of other costs and bureaucracy, many businesses have no real choice but to relocate factories and other low level work offshore.  When this happens, and the costs of doing business those companies incur drop dramatically, other companies almost have to follow suit or their products will not be cost competitive.

Most factory work is low level unskilled work, and having to pay a livable wage in the US for some of it, the minimum wage for some of it, and a union wage for some of it prices out our products when competitors are paying much lower elsewhere.  It's why we need America First policies when it comes to trade agrements and imports.

The Trumps are not immune to any of this.  As with most people running businesses, they see what's going on and why.  That they follow suit doesn't mean they think this is the right course for the US - it's about competing on a level playing field.

Instead of being the hypocrite you want to paint him to be, he's trying to get this fixed.  So your conclusion about their motives is invalid.

One way of saying this is to quote various urban "musicians:" "don't hate tha playa, hate tha game."

[PB the Deplorable]

... Actually no. Most shareholders are Private pension companies and private equity/hedge fund firms (Many many foreign ones) ...

This is simply factually incorrect

[albrecht]

This is simply factually incorrect

Teacher retirement funds, State worker retirement funds, University investment funds, people's 401Ks etc, State Employee Pension funds, etc.

[PB the Deplorable]

...  Why? Because the firms they work for make it so (Small businesses excepted). You make it so over simplistic it isn't really worth trying to explain...

You do realize people are free to leave their jobs and find better jobs elsewhere, right? 

...  You know don't you that in the last thirty or so years the gap between the very highest paid and the lowest has widened exponentially?...

I thought I went over that.  Re-read the part about the world being much more complex and the executives and skilled positions need to deal with it, while the minimum wage jobs don't.  Dealing with specific complexities in the business world are valuable job skills, and people get paid for doing so.

And again, please, please tell me why someone would still be in a minmum wage or low wage position 20 years later. 


The Fake Statistics - or more accurately, Fake Analysis - don't tell you the economy and job market is dynamic and not static.  Most (nearly all) people start out in entry level positions, then move up during their careers.  It's not really valid to compare a low level job and pay 20 years ago to today because the person doing that job 20 years ago has developed job skills and has moved on to a typically much higher paying job.  Even though the statistics show a person doing that job then and now, it's a different person.  That we still have entry level and low level jobs is a GOOD THING because people starting out with no job skills need them to get started.

...  In the 70's one half of a couple went to work, bought their home, ran a car, and had holidays...These days both HAVE to work, the percentage of their combined salaries is far higher to going to keep the roof over their heads, and many are living week to week.

Do you think rip off level taxation has anything to do with that?  When half a person's income is taxes away, a wife has to go to work to make up for it.

[Lord Grantham]

Teacher retirement funds, State worker retirement funds, University investment funds, people's 401Ks etc, State Employee Pension funds, etc.

Mutual funds, index funds, Sovereign government funds ( http://money.cnn.com/2017/09/19/investing/norway-pension-fund-trillion-dollars/index.html ), banks, other corporations

[PB the Deplorable]

No: that's what results from massive tax breaks for corporations and so called 'trickle down economics'.

Which planet do you live on? Shareholders are the first consideration for a big company. That is business law. Shareholders (and the private equity firms therein) decide what path the firm will take and if they decide the board is going to shed jobs, then jobs they're going to shed.

Were? This isn't history, it goes on today. Ask why Trump and his daughter have their shit made in South East Asia and the the far east...It isn't because they love America.

Again, you use the past sense.

Actually no. Most shareholders are Private pension companies and private equity/hedge fund firms (Many many foreign ones) . They're not evil, but neither do they have any love for the staff of the firms they hold shares in.

Why? Because the firms they work for make it so (Small businesses excepted). You make it so over simplistic it isn't really worth trying to explain. You know don't you that in the last thirty or so years the gap between the very highest paid and the lowest has widened exponentially? In the 70's one half of a couple went to work, bought their home, ran a car, and had holidays...These days both HAVE to work, the percentage of their combined salaries is far higher to going to keep the roof over their heads, and many are living week to week.

Jesus fucking christ. Stop watching Fox. Grow up.

You sound like a 95 year old fuddy duddy English socialist, sitting in a mahogany paneled mens club, wearing a tweed jacket with elbow patches, smoking a weird pipe, whose mindset is still stuck in the preindustrial age.  You don't have any idea what you're talking about, and pick and choose out-of-context threads of facts that mostly fit your preconcieved ideas.

I really don't undertand how anyone can have lived through the past 50 years, seen the amazing revolutionary changes, and still be muttering about the Left's ignorant ''trickle down economics'' red herring.

[Lord Grantham]

Do you think rip off level taxation has anything to do with that?  When half a person's income is taxes away, a wife has to go to work to make up for it.

https://bradfordtaxinstitute.com/Free_Resources/Federal-Income-Tax-Rates.aspx

The 1950s, 1960s, and 1970s
Over the next three decades, the top federal income tax rate remained high, never dipping below 70 percent.

go take a look at 1977's taxes as an example
https://files.taxfoundation.org/legacy/docs/fed_individual_rate_history_nominal.pdf

Taxes were nuts back when.

[PB the Deplorable]

https://bradfordtaxinstitute.com/Free_Resources/Federal-Income-Tax-Rates.aspxgo take a look at 1977's taxes as an example
https://files.taxfoundation.org/legacy/docs/fed_individual_rate_history_nominal.pdf

Taxes were nuts back when.

Yes, the ripoff taxation has been going on much longer than just from the 1970s.  As far as a top rate of 70%, very few actually paid anything near that.

One reason housing and other expenses have risen, and pay has not kept pace with inflation is massive immigration.  Bidding up home prices, increased supply of workers competing for jobs

[Yorkshire pud]

You do know the US corporate income tax rate of 35% is the highest in the western world, right?

You know it isn't 35% don't you?

[albrecht]

Mutual funds, index funds, Sovereign government funds ( http://money.cnn.com/2017/09/19/investing/norway-pension-fund-trillion-dollars/index.html ), banks, other corporations

Cities, Water Districts, Non-Profits/Foundations, Vatican, etc etc.

By the way anyone remember some dude Walter Burien? He had some theory about how various entities were hiding the actual amount of money/assets they had and so trick voters into thinking cities/etc needed to raise taxes, issue more bonds, etc. Something to do with the difference between the budget (that they show us) and the Comprehensive Annual Financial Report (which shows the actual amount of assets held.) But I see, at least here in TX, you can get access to the State's CAFR and they passed a law some years ago to make it even more accessible. I also heard, in keeping with good "alternative radio" guests, that Walter got sent to prison?

[Lord Grantham]

One reason housing and other expenses have risen, and pay has not kept pace with inflation is massive immigration.  Bidding up home prices, increased supply of workers competing for jobs

When all else fails, break out the immigration boogeyman.

[PB the Deplorable]

You know it isn't 35% don't you?

https://taxfoundation.org/corporate-income-tax-rates-around-the-world-2017/ 

I know certain favored industries get massive tax breaks - some paying nothing at all, but 35% is the federal corporate tax rate. 

[PB the Deplorable]

When all else fails, break out the immigration boogeyman.

More people doesn't mean more of everything, good and bad?

[Yorkshire pud]

You do realize people are free to leave their jobs and find better jobs elsewhere, right? 

Again, you're simplistic. You condone the bad treatment by firms and then blame the worker for not doing something about it. Not everyone can just get another job, just like that...But its okay, because you're now saying "Well they shouldn't complain and just get on with it"

I thought I went over that.  Re-read the part about the world being much more complex and the executives and skilled positions need to deal with it, while the minimum wage jobs don't.  Dealing with specific complexities in the business world are valuable job skills, and people get paid for doing so.

And again, please, please tell me why someone would still be in a minmum wage or low wage position 20 years later. 

Why? Because unless you've been living in a cave on the Moon for the last thirty years, the jobs market is shrinking, and many are exported to low wage countries. Therefore those that are left are at a premium, and the firms know this and so can basically say take it or leave it.

The Fake Statistics - or more accurately, Fake Analysis - don't tell you the economy and job market is dynamic and not static.  Most (nearly all) people start out in entry level positions, then move up during their careers.

In the REALWORLDâ,,¢, Many jobs that used to be well paid no longer are. Automation negates high skills and therefore employers don't need to pay for them. Zero hour contracts are also far more prevalent than they ever were.

It's not really valid to compare a low level job and pay 20 years ago to today because the person doing that job 20 years ago has developed job skills and has moved on to a typically much higher paying job.  Even though the statistics show a person doing that job then and now, it's a different person.  That we still have entry level and low level jobs is a GOOD THING because people starting out with no job skills need them to get started.

Which skills are you referring to? Manufacturing? The manufacturing industries in the west have almost collapsed because its cheaper to get things made in the far east. Ask Apple. Loads of jobs in things you need a good degree in and things such as selling.

Do you think rip off level taxation has anything to do with that?  When half a person's income is taxes away, a wife has to go to work to make up for it.

I'm all for low taxation; Just make it equitable. In other words stop throwing crumbs to the majority of us, and throwing money at those who dump their assets offshore anyway.

[Yorkshire pud]

https://taxfoundation.org/corporate-income-tax-rates-around-the-world-2017/ 

I know certain favored industries get massive tax breaks - some paying nothing at all, but 35% is the federal corporate tax rate.

They don't pay 35%. Because the firms that would, employ accountants to ensure they don't.

[Yorkshire pud]

Yes, the ripoff taxation has been going on much longer than just from the 1970s.  As far as a top rate of 70%, very few actually paid anything near that.

One reason housing and other expenses have risen, and pay has not kept pace with inflation is massive immigration.  Bidding up home prices, increased supply of workers competing for jobs

Massive immigration? You mean Mexicans doing the jobs the indigenous population won't do?

[albrecht]

When all else fails, break out the immigration boogeyman.

Tell Kate Steinle's dad and family that illegals are just "boogeyman." Or to Courtney Hacking whose husband and two children were killed by an illegal who got only 2 years. Or the almost countless rape and child abuse victims. One of the many:
http://wgno.com/2015/04/20/illegal-immigrant-accused-of-raping-10-year-old-girl-in-kenner/
How people, especially on the Left-but not solely-, accept this stuff just for some cheaper labor, some more votes, or to be seen as "progressive" by their friends is beyond me.

[Lord Grantham]

Tell Kate Steinle's dad and family that illegals are just "boogeyman." Or to Courtney Hacking whose husband and two children were killed by an illegal who got only 2 years. Or the almost countless rape and child abuse victims. One of the many:
http://wgno.com/2015/04/20/illegal-immigrant-accused-of-raping-10-year-old-girl-in-kenner/
How people, especially on the Left-but not solely-, accept this stuff just for some cheaper labor, some more votes, or to be seen as "progressive" by their friends is beyond me.

Not what we're talking about here and now, but nice try.

Also, this: http://www.sfchronicle.com/opinion/diaz/article/Leave-Kate-Steinle-out-of-the-immigration-debate-11273945.php

Her family members do not want her name to be in the center of a political controversy. They want room to grieve, and to reflect on and honor her life in their own ways.

“I don’t know who coined ‘Kate’s Law,’” Jim Steinle, her father, told me Friday. “It certainly wasn’t us.”

[albrecht]

Not what we're talking about here and now, but nice try.

Also, this: http://www.sfchronicle.com/opinion/diaz/article/Leave-Kate-Steinle-out-of-the-immigration-debate-11273945.php

Yet they filed a lawsuit so clearly they at least wonder why the illegal was allowed to murder their daughter. Unless you are accusing them of just trying to cash in on the tragic event.
http://www.cnn.com/2016/05/27/us/kate-steinle-wrongful-death-suit/index.html
"On Friday, her family filed a federal lawsuit against U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement, San Francisco County's former sheriff, the federal Bureau of Land Management and the man who allegedly fired the deadly shot.
"Kate's death was both foreseeable and preventable had the law enforcement agencies, officials and/or officers involved simply followed the laws, regulations and/or procedures which they swore to uphold," the lawsuit said. "

It is not just kids.
http://valleycentral.com/news/local/police-arrest-donna-man-accused-of-sexually-assaulting-an-elderly-woman
http://www.keyt.com/news/murder-torture-rape-charges-filed-in-death-of-santa-maria-woman/34609634

But you get a cheaper nanny, some more voters, and lawn maintenance is so much cheaper so it is all worth it!

[Lord Grantham]

Yet they filed a lawsuit so clearly they at least wonder why the illegal was allowed to murder their daughter. Unless you are accusing them of just trying to cash in on the tragic event.
http://www.cnn.com/2016/05/27/us/kate-steinle-wrongful-death-suit/index.html
"On Friday, her family filed a federal lawsuit against U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement, San Francisco County's former sheriff, the federal Bureau of Land Management and the man who allegedly fired the deadly shot.
"Kate's death was both foreseeable and preventable had the law enforcement agencies, officials and/or officers involved simply followed the laws, regulations and/or procedures which they swore to uphold," the lawsuit said. "

In fact, the Steinles’ views on immigration policy are far more nuanced than the debates that dominate the screamfests on cable news. As they explained in an interview with me in September 2015, the Steinles are not opposed to sanctuary cities. They recognize the value of allowing otherwise law-abiding immigrants to report crimes or go to a hospital without fear of deportation.

Their issue was with then-Sheriff Ross Mirkarimi’s recklessly absolutist interpretation of the policy that effectively prohibited any communication with federal immigration officials.

[PaulAtreides]

You do know the US corporate income tax rate of 35% is the highest in the western world, right?

You do know that because of all the loopholes, the EFFECTIVE tax rate for most is significantly lower, even 0 for the likes of GE, right?