President Donald J. Trump

[Teh PeNgu1n oF dOOm]

brb, getting some air jordans for my wife's son.

Fuck, this site doesn't support signature's.

Would have been a helluva sig.

[Lt.Uhura]

MV, they are all idiots. For some reason, Trump is on top. He's your man. You guys won. Celebrate while you can.

I'm with you, coaster.  But they haven't "won" yet.  It was no great feat to come out on top of that pathetic Republican heap of candidates. 

I get that voters are fed up with the usual suspects in Washington, but Trump is no panacea.  When I watch Trump I see chaos.  He's making it up as he goes along.  He might have a majority here at BellGab (lovers of chaos), but personally I don't know one person who's voting for him.

For the most part, America has done well because we've had leaders who are respected worldwide.  The spectacle of Trump as America's potential leader has made us a laughingstock.

[Yorkshire pud]

forget about it.

That isn't the BG way!! How very dare you.

Reported.

[Teh PeNgu1n oF dOOm]

I'm with you, coaster.  But they haven't "won" yet.  It was no great feat to come out on top of that pathetic Republican heap of candidates. 

I get that voters are fed up with the usual suspects in Washington, but Trump is no panacea.  When I watch Trump I see chaos.  He's making it up as he goes along.  He might have a majority here at BellGab (lovers of chaos), but personally I don't know one person who's voting for him.

For the most part, America has done well because we've had leaders who are respected worldwide.  The spectacle of Trump as America's potential leader has made us a laughingstock.

According to the statistics, Trump has received the most votes of any previous Republican candidate, and we have still have many states to go.

[Lt.Uhura]

According to the statistics, Trump has received the most votes of any previous Republican candidate, and we have still have many states to go.

Beating his fellow Republicans is one thing, but he can't catch the Democrats.

I noticed Bush I & II have also rejected him.  The old guard Republicans might still have a trick up their sleeves for the RNC.  A last gasp, it won't help.

[Value Of Pi]

I'm with you, coaster.  But they haven't "won" yet.  It was no great feat to come out on top of that pathetic Republican heap of candidates. 

I get that voters are fed up with the usual suspects in Washington, but Trump is no panacea.  When I watch Trump I see chaos.  He's making it up as he goes along.  He might have a majority here at BellGab (lovers of chaos), but personally I don't know one person who's voting for him.

For the most part, America has done well because we've had leaders who are respected worldwide.  The spectacle of Trump as America's potential leader has made us a laughingstock.

"Lovers of chaos" is a pretty apt phrase to describe many of Trump's supporters. I think for them the whole idea of watching one powerful man create a huge amount of chaos is a vicarious thrill, sort of like observing an earthquake zone from the safety of a private jet. The suffering wouldn't be quite real to them, and to the extent it was, it would be okay as long as the right people were doing the suffering.

Basically, it's a club for miserable, disappointed losers bound and determined to get as many of the people they think have caused their misery to share it. As for everyone else, the attitude is "screw 'em, they're not me." Ugly Americans never came any uglier. White working-class voters deserved a better champion but too many of them have made the wrong choice for themselves and everyone else. Their anger is not breeding sympathy, just contempt.

[Lt.Uhura]

"Lovers of chaos" is a pretty apt phrase to describe many of Trump's supporters. I think for them the whole idea of watching one powerful man create a huge amount of chaos is a vicarious thrill, sort of like observing an earthquake zone from the safety of a private jet. The suffering wouldn't be quite real to them, and to the extent it was, it would be okay as long as the right people were doing the suffering.

Basically, it's a club for miserable, disappointed losers bound and determined to get as many of the people they think have caused their misery to share it. As for everyone else, the attitude is "screw 'em, they're not me." Ugly Americans never came any uglier. White working-class voters deserved a better champion but too many of them have made the wrong choice for themselves and everyone else. Their anger is not breeding sympathy, just contempt.

Indeed!  And it's not surprising they identify with Trump--a celebrity from reality TV ffs!  And hey--why bother choosing Donald's running mate from the political arena when Rush Limbaugh could better articulate their grievances!  In fact we could save ourselves a shitload of money by firing everyone in DC, cancelling the general election and selecting all our leaders strictly via reality TV.

[Value Of Pi]

Indeed!  And it's not surprising they identify with Trump--a celebrity from reality TV ffs!  And hey--why bother choosing Donald's running mate from the political arena when Rush Limbaugh could better articulate their grievances!  In fact we could save ourselves a shitload of money by firing everyone in DC, cancelling the general election and selecting all our leaders strictly via reality TV.

Back in the late 1970s and early 1980s, the broadcast networks made a conscious, calculated decision, motivated entirely by profit, to eliminate the dividing line between news and entertainment. That was the beginning of the end of journalism's ability to separate fact from fiction and hype -- and to do it with enough credibility to prevent an election like this one from happening.

Since 1960, it's been TV that has elected presidents and you could argue that with over a billion dolllars in free air time, it's the likes of Trump that owns the TV networks in 2016. Likewise with Rush on radio. The whole thing has been a sickening, corrupt mess -- a slow-motion train wreck courtesy of the very same media moguls who are ever-happy to replay it for us frame by frame as it unfolds.

But hey, you know, they're only doing it for the shareholders, because without our 401ks, how would anyone be able to retire? And what a way to end our days, watching the country sink into a sea of shite on an HDTV, with a gold-plated White House to decorate the scene.

[coaster]

I think for them the whole idea of watching one powerful man create a huge amount of chaos is a vicarious thrill, sort of like observing an earthquake zone from the safety of a private jet. The suffering wouldn't be quite real to them, and to the extent it was, it would be okay as long as the right people were doing the suffering.

schadenfreude. i'm aware. good post.

[coaster]

According to the statistics, Trump has received the most votes of any previous Republican candidate, and we have still have many states to go.

Pretty wild, I'll admit. I'm turning 35 soon, and this is the craziest campaign I've ever seen. May the less evil jerk win..
I know I was an asshole last night in this thread. But I reflect the average voter. I'll admit that too.
all you brilliant minds. The braintrust of bellgab...
I just don't get it.

[RealCool Daddio]

That ol' messican prez is wholly corrupt. Top to bottom the messicans are corrupt.

Hey MV, who let the dime store version of Quick Karl into the place?

[RealCool Daddio]

if the last 10 months have taught us anything, it's that there's no point in trying to predict anything in this cycle.  we'll see what happens...

True enough.  Trump has proven many, many people wrong by getting this far.  I sure as shit didn't think he would make it to a general.   I do believe, though, that a lot of the disbelief came from the notion that the GOP was more unified, stronger, better organized, whatever, and would prevent Trump from winning somehow.  Instead, Trump has conclusively proven that it is a shitshow.  The campaign for the Dems, Hillary I assume, should be pretty easy.  "Hey guys, you can't seriously want to elect a party that is a complete shambles.  Don't believe they are? Ask Donald, he proved it." 

or the reverse:

"Vote for me, I am presiding over a giant dumpster fire - and I lit the match!"

I dunno, it just seems like a really tough position to build from.  The only positive for the Donald I can see at the moment is that Bernie will continue to chip away at Hillary for a couple of months, attacking her form the left while Trump attacks from the right.  I'll be curious to see if Dem unity will start to show some cracks over the next few weeks, because demographically, I don't believe the R's can win.  The D's have to lose for Donald to be President.

[SredniVashtar]

trump became the republican nominee after overcoming 17 or 18 qualified candidates, opposition from his own party's establishment, opposition from talk radio, tens of thousands of negative advertisements, anti-trump "firewall" after "firewall"... all while spending the least amount of money and with no direct political experience.  yeah, what a moron.

“No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public.” HL Mencken.

You are living in a weird era over there where all that traditional attributes that were considered virtues in the public sphere are being disregarded by Trump supporters. If you point out Trump's lies, they giggle and say "oh, that's just Trump being Trump". If you show that he goes back on his word then they tell you that it just goes to show you what a badass businessman he is, who has the balls to make America great again. Experience? Fuck that! (go, Heather!). Almost any valid criticism gets batted back as coming from the elitist establishment and ignored. There is no possibility for rational discussion, because Trump 2016 is essentially a religious movement that can't be treated in a rational way.

Too many people get sucked into the talk radio/24 news culture, where everything becomes polarised into liberal or conservative. They've lost the ability to have a nuanced view and don't realise that you can't have one without the other. Without (broadly speaking) liberals we'd still be living in feudalism, while conservatives manage to apply the brakes when necessary and stop things travelling too far, too fast. The big problem now is that people are motivated almost exclusively with what they don't like instead of what they do. That's the big appeal of Trump, whose supporters seem to be galvanised by all the things they dislike without sparing a thought for he probably landscape of four/eight years of Trump.

All of those items you quoted work for Trump right now. You don't need to be all that smart to ride this wave, you just need to be sufficiently cunning and cynical. Trump even admitted himself that his support is so deeply rooted that there was almost nothing he could do, including murder, that would dissuade them from their support.

[whoozit]

The D's have to lose for Donald to be President.

I think a lot of conventional wisdom has to be tossed out the window this election cycle.  A relative of mine is a professional pollster.  He did one of the first polls that showed Trump would lose to any democrat that ran while other republicans would fare better.  Donald attacked the poll and the relative wore it like a badge of honor.  He also said polling showed Bernie had no chance at an earlier get together.  I asked him if a lot of the polling about Trump could be wrong because people would not publicly admit to favoring Trump but would vote for him.  He looked at me like I had three heads and said no way.  I then asked him why aTrump was doing better than polling said he should be.  I think I saw the dawning of recognition in his eyes.  I think this is the moped effect.  Moped's are fun to ride but you don't want to get caught by your friends riding one.  For better or worse, Trump is a moped.

[RealCool Daddio]

I think a lot of conventional wisdom has to be tossed out the window this election cycle.  A relative of mine is a professional pollster.  He did one of the first polls that showed Trump would lose to any democrat that ran while other republicans would fare better.  Donald attacked the poll and the relative wore it like a badge of honor.  He also said polling showed Bernie had no chance at an earlier get together.  I asked him if a lot of the polling about Trump could be wrong because people would not publicly admit to favoring Trump but would vote for him.  He looked at me like I had three heads and said no way.  I then asked him why aTrump was doing better than polling said he should be.  I think I saw the dawning of recognition in his eyes.  I think this is the moped effect.  Moped's are fun to ride but you don't want to get caught by your friends riding one.  For better or worse, Trump is a moped.

Good points.  Question, though.  Do people take their mopeds to the prom? 

[whoozit]

Good points.  Question, though.  Do people take their mopeds to the prom?

No, because you would be seen with your date.  With the president you can always say "Don't blame me, I voted for the other one".

[chefist]

It's all about the money, and always has been. Corporations buy influence with politicians to maximize their profits. Republicans run on "free markets" to deflect the attention from jobs leaving the country, and the Democrats use "civil rights" to do the same. Many establishment Republicans are for open borders because the Chamber of Commerce has bought them off and wants cheap, immigrant labor for their businesses. Democrats want open boarders because they know these groups will use the welfare system and more than likely vote for them.  Trump was the only candidate bringing these facts out into the open, because he self funded this campaign.

We as a nation need to make a clear choice...pay more for goods and services that are from the USA and employ our neighbor, or pay more into the welfare system for all those that cannot find good paying jobs. Two countries that understand this concept and promote it are Germany and Japan...

The guy is flawed, clearly...but he is bringing up very important issues.

[SredniVashtar]

We as a nation need to make a clear choice...pay more for goods and services that are from the USA and employ our neighbor, or pay more into the welfare system for all those that cannot find good paying jobs. Two countries that understand this concept and promote it are Germany and Japan...

The guy is flawed, clearly...but he is bringing up very important issues.

What you are describing would only be possible if the government actively took steps to rig the free market in the form of tariff restrictions. The stuff that Trump comes out with amounts to no more than buzz words, in the same way that people used to be obsessed with 'sound money'. Right-wingers are starting to sound like those nasty leftists.

People don't want to pay more than they have to for goods and services, just as Trump doesn't want to pay more tax than he has to. That's life, which is basically 'fuck thy neighbour'. This idea that you will all pull together to make America great again doesn't work in practice, and only has any use at political rallies, where rhetoric like that gets a big pop from the audience.

Germany spends a lot of money on welfare programs, although I think they are trying to roll some of that back with Hartz IV these days. Nevertheless, they are much more 'liberal' than the US where that's concerned. I don't know about Japan, but I don't think they are all that thriving any more.

[VtaGeezer]

“No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence taste of the American public.” HL Mencken.

Corrected. 
It's quite something to see the expansion of the Trump-as-boogie-man stuff.  Reminds me of boys on a sleep-outs in the yard hearing a noise in the bushes. It's much more fun to imagine the monster than to actually peek out and see the neighbor's cat.  Trump has a 40 year open history. But the terrified avoid looking there.

[SredniVashtar]

Corrected. 
It's quite something to see the expansion of the Trump-as-boogie-man stuff.  Reminds me of boys on a sleep-outs in the yard hearing a noise in the bushes. It's much more fun to imagine the monster than to actually peek out and see the neighbor's cat.  Trump has a 40 year open history. But the terrified avoid looking there.

Trump isn't the problem, it's people like you who think they're smart but can't see beyond their own prejudices. Trump is a typical chancer, he's not evil; but he could do a lot of damage, just as anyone else could who is manifestly not fit to hold an important post. You might see yourself as a tough-talking iconoclast, whereas you're really just an impractical dreamer.

[Richard Groyper]

The president of the United States has a limited amount of policy power. So, all the hand wringing, and "butthurt" regarding a potential Trump presidency is a bit absurd. No matter whom the winner is, they will probably won't come close to fulfilling most of their campaign promises. We all know this. The best we can hope for is a president that doesn't make matters worse.

Like him or not, Trump is a successful businessman. (80% of businesses fail.) I believe him when he says he wants to keep jobs here in the states. I see that as a positive quality,..if he wins the general election. I hope 'President Trump' runs the country like a business. Yes, eaiser said than done, but it can be done. Trump can do this.

[Little Hater]

Corrected. 
It's quite something to see the expansion of the Trump-as-boogie-man stuff.  Reminds me of boys on a sleep-outs in the yard hearing a noise in the bushes. It's much more fun to imagine the monster than to actually peek out and see the neighbor's cat.  Trump has a 40 year open history. But the terrified avoid looking there.

More correct, and more to the Trump point (but please note he didn't say, 'American people').

"No one in this world, so far as I know -- and I have researched the records for years, and employed agents to help me -- has ever lost money by underestimating the intelligence of the great masses of the plain people. Nor has anyone ever lost public office thereby."

-- H L Mencken

[SredniVashtar]

Like him or not, Trump is a successful businessman. (80% of businesses fail.) I believe him when he says he wants to keep jobs here in the states. I see that as a positive quality,..if he wins the general election. I hope 'President Trump' runs the country like a business. Yes, eaiser said than done, but it can be done. Trump can do this.

You can't run a country like a business. You can't fire Americans who aren't doing a good job, for one thing. If you screw up you can't just start again without bringing the whole roof down on your head and everyone else. Businessmen are there to make money for themselves, their employees and, if they are large enough, their shareholders. That's what they are good at, and they should stick to it. Being  a good businessman doesn't mean you can be a good politician, just as being a good politician doesn't mean you will be good at business. Different disciplines, different skills.

[GuerrillaUnReal]

I think the thing that amuses me the most about Trump is he's made all his detractors infallible political and economic experts.

[paladin1991]

“No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public.” HL Mencken.

You are living in a weird era over there where all that traditional attributes that were considered virtues in the public sphere are being disregarded by Trump supporters. If you point out Trump's lies, they giggle and say "oh, that's just Trump being Trump". If you show that he goes back on his word then they tell you that it just goes to show you what a badass businessman he is, who has the balls to make America great again. Experience? Fuck that! (go, Heather!). Almost any valid criticism gets batted back as coming from the elitist establishment and ignored. There is no possibility for rational discussion, because Trump 2016 is essentially a religious movement that can't be treated in a rational way.

Too many people get sucked into the talk radio/24 news culture, where everything becomes polarised into liberal or conservative. They've lost the ability to have a nuanced view and don't realise that you can't have one without the other. Without (broadly speaking) liberals we'd still be living in feudalism, while conservatives manage to apply the brakes when necessary and stop things travelling too far, too fast. The big problem now is that people are motivated almost exclusively with what they don't like instead of what they do. That's the big appeal of Trump, whose supporters seem to be galvanised by all the things they dislike without sparing a thought for he probably landscape of four/eight years of Trump.

All of those items you quoted work for Trump right now. You don't need to be all that smart to ride this wave, you just need to be sufficiently cunning and cynical. Trump even admitted himself that his support is so deeply rooted that there was almost nothing he could do, including murder, that would dissuade them from their support.

Ah!  The Pontification fm across the pond.  Thanks for that. Here, take this two bux, run down to starbux and get me a cuppa, will ya?  Thaaaaanks.

[GuerrillaUnReal]

No one is being paid to shill for Hillary. It's a Republican-funded lie and a pathetic attempt at smearing her campaign.

[paladin1991]

Good points.  Question, though.  Do people take their mopeds to the prom?

Only a Mod would take a scooter to the prom.  Rockers roll in Dodge Chargers.

[chefist]

What you are describing would only be possible if the government actively took steps to rig the free market in the form of tariff restrictions. The stuff that Trump comes out with amounts to no more than buzz words, in the same way that people used to be obsessed with 'sound money'. Right-wingers are starting to sound like those nasty leftists.

It is rigged and there is no "free trade". China, Japan, Mexico and Germany have many more trade restrictions and tariffs than the US...they prefer to buy internally and limit imports...it's a fact...

Also, those nations rely on the US to pay for a significant part of their national defense...they use that money on their social welfare systems...

[Richard Groyper]

You can't run a country like a business. You can't fire Americans who aren't doing a good job, for one thing. If you screw up you can't just start again without bringing the whole roof down on your head and everyone else. Businessmen are there to make money for themselves, their employees and, if they are large enough, their shareholders. That's what they are good at, and they should stick to it. Being  a good businessman doesn't mean you can be a good politician, just as being a good politician doesn't mean you will be good at business. Different disciplines, different skills.

I believe you can, to a certain extent. Obviously Trump can't fire anyone he wants to on whim, but that wasn't my point. The spirit of my post was essentially--I hope Trump's business background and good instincts help the country. That's it. Nothing profound.

I'm not questioning you, but...Trump the 'politician' is doing well, quite well.

[TigerLily]

I tend to agree with you on these points.  Unfortunately Republicans in general don't seem to have the balls to play dirty against the Democrats. The Democrats have no such compunction.

lol. 21. I am so glad I hang out here. Such an education for me. All my evil progressive liberal democrat friends, including me, have been saying the exact opposite forever.
But I have to say the cognitive dissonance between the "factions" depresses me.