Critical Omissions with Douglas Dietrich

[Gunner65]

Damn right they are -

4 June 1942
04:30 First Japanese takeoff against Midway Islands
04:30 10 planes (Yorktown) begin to search for the Japanese ships
05:34 Japanese ships detected by a PBY from Midway I.
07:10 6 TBF Avengers and 4 USAAF B-26 (from Midway I.) attack
07:50 67 dive bombers, 29 torpedo bombers, 20 Wildcats take off (Spruance)
07:55 16 dive bombers of the US Navy (from Midway I.) attack
08:10 17 B-17s (from Midway Islands) attack
08:20 11 bombers of the US Navy (from Midway I.) attack
09:06 12 torpedo bombers, 17 dive bombers, 6 Wildcats take off (Yorktown)
09:18 Nagumo to Northeast
09:25 15 torpedo bombers (Hornet) attack
09:30 14 torpedo bombers (Enterprise) attack
10:00 12 torpedo bombers (Yorktown) attack
10:25 30 dive bombers (Enterprise) attack Akagi and Kaga
10:25 17 dive bombers (Yorktown) attack Soryū
11:00 18 Vals and 6 Zekes take off from Hiryū
11:30 10 planes (Yorktown) take off to search for remaining Japanese ships
12:05 First attack on Yorktown
13:30 Hiryū detected by a Yorktown plane; 24 dive bombers take off against Hiryū (Spruance)
13:31 10 Kates and 6 Zekes take off from Hiryū
13:40 Yorktown again in service, making 18 knots
14:30 Second attack on Yorktown
15:00 Yorktown abandoned
16:10 Soryū sunk
17:00 Dive bombers attack on Hiryū
19:25 Kaga sunk
5 June
05:00 Akagi sunk
09:00 Hiryū sunk

By the time the battle ended, 3,057 Japanese had died. Casualties aboard the four carriers were: Akagi: 267; Kaga: 811; Hiryū: 392; Soryū: 711 (including Captain Yanagimoto, who chose to remain on board); a total of 2,181.[148] The heavy cruisers Mikuma (sunk; 700 casualties) and Mogami (badly damaged; 92) accounted for another 792 deaths.[149]

In addition, the destroyers Arashio (bombed; 35) and Asashio (strafed by aircraft; 21) were both damaged during the air attacks which sank Mikuma and caused further damage to Mogami. Floatplanes were lost from the cruisers Chikuma (3) and Tone (2). Dead aboard the destroyers Tanikaze (11), Arashi (1), Kazagumo (1) and the fleet oiler Akebono Maru (10) made up the remaining 23 casualties.[nb 5]

At the end of the battle, the U.S. lost the carrier Yorktown and a destroyer, Hammann. 307 Americans had been killed, including Major General Clarence L. Tinker, Commander, 7th Air Force, who personally led a bomber strike from Hawaii against the retreating Japanese forces on 7 June. He was killed when his aircraft crashed near Midway Island.

On 10 June, the Imperial Japanese Navy conveyed to the military liaison conference an incomplete picture of the results of the battle. Chūichi Nagumo's detailed battle report was submitted to the high command on 15 June. It was intended only for the highest echelons in the Japanese Navy and government, and was guarded closely throughout the war. In it, one of the more striking revelations is the comment on the Mobile Force Commander's (Nagumo's) estimates: "The enemy is not aware of our plans (we were not discovered until early in the morning of the 5th at the earliest)."[156] In reality, the whole operation had been compromised from the beginning by American code-breaking efforts.[157]

The Japanese public and much of the military command structure were kept in the dark about the extent of the defeat: Japanese news announced a great victory. Only Emperor Hirohito and the highest Navy command personnel were accurately informed of the carrier and pilot losses. Consequently, even the Imperial Japanese Army (IJA) continued to believe, for at least a short time, that the fleet was in good condition.

The plan was handicapped by faulty Japanese assumptions of the American reaction and poor initial dispositions. Most significantly, American cryptographers were able to determine the date and location of the planned attack, enabling the forewarned U.S. Navy to prepare its own ambush. Four Japanese and three American aircraft carriers participated in the battle. The four Japanese fleet carriersâ€"Akagi, Kaga, Sōryū and Hiryū, part of the six-carrier force that had attacked Pearl Harbor six months earlierâ€"were sunk, as was the heavy cruiser Mikuma. The U.S. lost the carrier Yorktown and the destroyer Hammann.

After Midway and the exhausting attrition of the Solomon Islands campaign, Japan's capacity to replace its losses in materiel (particularly aircraft carriers) and men (especially well-trained pilots and maintenance crewmen) rapidly became insufficient to cope with mounting casualties, while the United States' massive industrial and training capabilities made losses far easier to replace. The Battle of Midway, along with the Guadalcanal campaign, is widely considered a turning point in the Pacific War.

[Walks_At_Night]

USS Yorktown was indeed lost but she damn near made it.  Mauled during the Battle of the Coral Sea in May, she was hastily repaired at Pearl Harbor and joined the Enterprise and Hornet at Midway.  Struck in two separate air strikes during the battle she was abandoned yet stubbornly did not sink.  Still afloat the next day a tug was dispatched and began towing her back to Pearl.  It was only by chance that a Japanese sub happened to sight this and finally dispatched her.

An amazing ship with one hell of a damage control crew. 

[Gunner65]

Another factor which contributed to the length of battle and possibly the loss of the Yorktown, was the ineffectiveness of USA and USN bomber aircraft based on Midway.  The initial Japanese attacks had left only minimal damage to the run-ways. The B-17s lacked accuracy bombing from 20,000 feet and the B-26 crews failed also.  The Japanese were able to execute tight evasive maneuvers as well, narrowly escaping entire sticks of bombs.

[Walks_At_Night]

Another factor which contributed to the length of battle and possibly the loss of the Yorktown, was the ineffectiveness of USA and USN bomber aircraft based on Midway.  The B-17s lacked accuracy bombing from 20,000 feet and the B-26 crews failed also.  The Japanese were able to execute tight evasive maneuvers as well, narrowly escaping entire sticks of bombs.

Trying to hit an alerted, moving ship from 4 miles up with a non-smart weapon would be more luck than anything.

[Gunner65]

"Invasion America Day"  :


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dy6Yg00qPxU

[Pelayo]

IJN Akagi


IJN Kaga


AFAIK IJN Soryu and IJN Hiryu have not yet been located.  They are down there though.

" Uhhhhh, yeah, the japs meant to lose 4 carriers. Yeah, that's the ticket, they planned on losing 4 carriers the whole time." -ddd

[Gunner65]

And they "invaded the USA" - bombed Dutch Harbor.  They were over 600 miles from the Alaskan Peninsula, and then were forced to endure an especially harsh winter. They finally retreated a few months later after suffering heavy casualties.  The Islands are considered "North American soil" but certainly not a successful invasion of US soil.

Japanese casualties:
4,350 killed
28 captured
7 warships sunk
9 cargo transport ships sunk

US casualties:
1,481 killed
225 aircraft destroyed
640 missing
3,416 wounded
8 captured

US Navy vessels heavily damaged
USS Salt Lake City (CA-25)
USS Abner Read (DD-526)

US Navy vessels lost
USS Worden (DD-352)
USS S-27 (SS-132)
USS Grunion (SS-216

[Pelayo]

And they "invaded the USA" - bombed Dutch Harbor.  They were over 600 miles from the Alaskan Peninsula, and then were forced to endure an especially harsh winter. They finally retreated a few months later after suffering heavy casualties.  The Islands are considered "North American soil" but certainly not a successful invasion of US soil.

Japanese casualties:
4,350 killed
28 captured
7 warships sunk
9 cargo transport ships sunk

US casualties:
1,481 killed
225 aircraft destroyed
640 missing
3,416 wounded
8 captured

US Navy vessels heavily damaged
USS Salt Lake City (CA-25)
USS Abner Read (DD-526)

US Navy vessels lost
USS Worden (DD-352)
USS S-27 (SS-132)
USS Grunion (SS-216

It wasn't even a state yet.

[Gunner65]

Correct.  It was a territory (1912) All U.S. territories are part of the United States (because they are under U.S. sovereignty), but the unincorporated territories are not considered to be integral parts of the United States, and the Constitution of the United States applies only partially in those territories



Although the Japanese troops had gone, Allied casualties on Kiska numbered 313. They were the result of friendly fire, booby traps, disease, mines, timed bombs set by the Japanese, vehicle accidents or frostbite. Like Attu, Kiska offered an extremely hostile environment. https://military.wikia.org/wiki/Aleutian_Islands_Campaign

[Pelayo]

Let's see if ddd brings up the "fact" that black men were conscripted to build the Al-Can highway. Oh the horror, actually performing hard work. ddd would rather die before doing that.

[Pelayo]

Ha! Death trap for the jap rat! EXCELLENT!

[Walks_At_Night]

" Uhhhhh, yeah, the japs meant to lose 4 carriers. Yeah, that's the ticket, they planned on losing 4 carriers the whole time." -ddd

Just not the carriers but the cream of Japanese naval aviation. The pilots were all extensively trained, highly skilled and most had long combat experience in China.  Throw in the battle staff, plane handlers, mechanics. Absolutely crushing............

[Gunner65]

For all his fucking "bloviating", Dietrich can never offer a convincing argument for the Japanese invasion of the Aleutians or a "victory" at Midway.  And neither can Peter Moon, who is likely to vomit what Dietrich has already presented.  It is the most bizarre impersonation of "historian" I have ever witnessed.

[Gunner65]

Just not the carriers but the cream of Japanese naval aviation. The pilots were all extensively trained, highly skilled and most had long combat experience in China.  Throw in the battle staff, plane handlers, mechanics. Absolutely crushing............

Yes. They also lost at least two Carrier commanders who went down with their ships, and a total loss of any hope of air superiority for the rest of the war.

The loss of all of their most experienced pilots, many of whom had participated in the attack on Pearl Harbor, would be the end for them.

[Pelayo]

For all his fucking "bloviating", Dietrich can never offer a convincing argument for the Japanese invasion of the Aleutians or a "victory" at Midway.  And neither can Peter Moon, who is likely to vomit what Dietrich has already presented.  It is the most bizarre impersonation of "historian" I have ever witnessed.

The main stream media is fake news, and ddd is fake history.

[Gunner65]

Can anyone imagine this retarded bitch as your mother?  Holy shit she is stupid.

[Pelayo]

Yes. They also lost at least two Carrier commanders who went down with their ships, and a total loss of any hope of air superiority for the rest of the war.

The loss of all of their most experienced pilots, many of whom had participated in the attack on Pearl Harbor, would be the end for them.

Yeah, that day the crabs had an all you can eat jap feed.

[Gunner65]

Japanese prisoners of war on board USS Ballard (AVD-10) after being rescued from a lifeboat two weeks after the Battle of Midway. They were members of the aircraft carrier Hiryu´s engineering force, left behind when she was abandoned on 5 June 1942, and had escaped in one of her boats just as she sank.

US Navy photo:

[Pelayo]

Oh yeah Lena, America is such a bad racist place everybody is trying to sneak into it so they can get their share of racism.

[Gunner65]

After unsuccessfully attacking the carrier Hiryu, enemy fire holed the plane 219 times. It was one of only eight SBD-2s of VMSB-241 to return from the attack against the Japanese fleet. Returned to the US, it was repaired and eventually assigned to the Carrier Qualification Training Unit (CQTU) at NAS Glenview, Illinois. On the morning of 11 June 1943 Marine 2nd Lt Donald A. Douglas Jr. ditched the aircraft in the waters of Lake Michigan during an errant approach to the training carrier USS Sable (IX-81). Recovered in 1994, the aircraft underwent extensive restoration at the museum before being placed on public display in 2001. Elements of its original paint scheme when delivered to the fleet are still visible on its wings and tail surfaces."

Our Navy pilots may have lacked experience, but they had fucking balls! So great they were able to recover the aircraft.

[Pelayo]

I went to an air-show at joint base Lewis-McChord a few years ago and on the program stated there was supposed to be a jap zero on static display but it couldn't make it. I was bummed because I really wanted to see it.

[Gunner65]

First airshow I went to was near Leesburg, VA  (Godfrey Field) in about 1980.  They had a yellow SNJ (T-6 Texan) a TBF Avenger and a Jap Zero.  They sold rides in the Texan but we couldn't afford it.  But I got to sit in the Zero cockpit!  I was hooked!  And started saving all my money working on a nearby truck farm to buy 1:48 scale models of WW2 Navy planes!

[Pelayo]

 I went to an airshow at Boeing Field last year and they were selling rides in a B=17 for something like $400 for a half hour ride. Would have loved to do it, but I haven't won the lottery yet.

[Pelayo]

Here is a totally cool attack aircraft (A-1 Skyraider) that if I remember right could carry the same weight ordnance as a B-17. You probably could find missions that it could carry out today.

[Gunner65]

The best was when an Air Guard Navigator visited our little rural church.  The family was like a traveling group.  The guy had been a B-52 navigator in Vietnam and was stationed at a nearby Air Guard Base in Martinsburg, WV.  He took me to the base to show me a C-130 because I told him I loved seeing them fly low over our valley.  That was great and I never forgot it.  The planes were painted in woodland camo then.  This is one flying over Harpers Ferry. They are flying C-17's now.

[Pelayo]

The best was when an Air Guard Navigator visited our little rural church.  The family was like a traveling group.  The guy had been a B-52 navigator in Vietnam and was stationed at a nearby Air Guard Base in Martinsburg, WV.  He took me to the base to show me a C-130 because I told him I loved seeing them fly low over our valley.  That was great and I never forgot it.  The planes were painted in woodland camo then.  This is one flying over Harpers Ferry. They are flying C-17's now.

Good old C-130. After all these years they still haven't come up with anything better. The C-17 replaced the venerable C-141.

[Pelayo]

Celina Kahn goes on about how white people are so racist and she can't understand it. Hey Celina, what do you think you and the rest of ddd's cult followers are? You're a racist hate group.

[Gunner65]

I spent a lot of money later on after I got out of the Marines learning to fly. I soloed in a Cessna 152 and had about 20 hours training.  I just couldn't afford it after a while.  But it was a lot of fun.  I once flew over a girlfriends farm at tree top level.  (Very impressive). And one day I flew back to the field in Cortland, NY after practicing slow flights to a heavy cross-wind - and no one there to help talk me down.

So I ended up making three attempts and "going round" in the pattern.  It scared the shit out of me at first, but I was able to finally slip the plane into the crosswind and land on the 4th attempt.  I remember shaking so bad as I taxied back to the ramp.  I even forgot to turn off the radio and ran the battery dead!

But I tied it down and turned in the keys along with my logbook!

[Pelayo]

Hey moon, ddd is a pariah in the UFO world too. Come to think of it, ddd is a pariah everywhere.

[Pelayo]

Back  in the 90's I worked in management for the biggest part 135 cargo airline in America. We had contracts for feeder flights for UPS next day air. I got to jumpseat a bunch of times in the right seat in Beech 99s and Piper Navajos. Almost every time, the pilot would ask, do you want to take the stick? He would say something like "Aim it towards that mountain and keep it at 12,000 feet." He would fill out his log and paperwork while I flew the plane.