Art Bell

[dan7800]

I thought the big player might have been Live365, but here's a rough breakdown of music costs:

Check the listener hours maximum (5000) and then add the cost per additional hour at .05 per hour/listener. 10,000 listeners x 3 hours x 22 days = 660,000 listener hours - 5000 = 655,000 x .05 = $32,750 + $199 = $32,949 per MONTH.

And wait until it goes to 20,000 listeners?

http://www.live365.com/pro/royalties.live
http://www.live365.com/pro/pricing.live

Bateman has it right, now you see what we are fighting, those are the prices for playing bumper music I think it's insane, unless we can wrap what we want to do into a existing deal we are truly in trouble. People simply don't believe it can cost that much and it should not!

Art

How much money would come in from allowing 5 minutes of advertising every hour? I totally I agree that it would be an uphill fight, and that is quite a bit of $$$, but would advertising make much of a dent in things?

[nooryisawesome]

I read before that KYNE is not a viable option. I believe that was discussed many many pages ago.

That is one of the things about Bellgab that can be annoying some joe blow poster, post his opinion and then it is the gospel.

[DesertFox]

Art Bell's last message:



He's NOT saying his deal fell through?  Am I right or not?  It seems some are taking like Art's deal fell through.  And therefore giving alternatives.  But at least right now we need no alternatives...THAT THE DEAL MIGHT STILL WORK OUT.  Is that so?

[wr250]

Art Bell's last message:



He's NOT saying his deal fell through?  Am I right or not?  It seems some are taking like Art's deal fell through.  And therefore giving alternatives.  But at least right now we need no alternatives...THAT THE DEAL MIGHT STILL WORK OUT.  Is that so?

yes he said the deal still may work out. in the meantime, he could explore other options.

[cweb]

I thought the big player might have been Live365, but here's a rough breakdown of music costs:

Check the listener hours maximum (5000) and then add the cost per additional hour at .05 per hour/listener. 10,000 listeners x 3 hours x 22 days = 660,000 listener hours - 5000 = 655,000 x .05 = $32,750 + $199 = $32,949 per MONTH.

And wait until it goes to 20,000 listeners?

http://www.live365.com/pro/royalties.live
http://www.live365.com/pro/pricing.live

That's like a new studio each month?

Or part of a new mist tunnel, if you're a certain radio exec...

Here's a longshot:  You've got 5 months until July, have you considered getting permission from as many artists as possible during that time?  Might reduce costs, at the very least there would be a few artists (maybe more, you never know) that you wouldn't have to pay monthly copyright for.  Perhaps ask them if you can pay a flat, one-time fee for lifetime permission for use as bumper music?

ZZ Top, Crystal Gayle, and the (remaining) Highwaymen would give you permission.  Would be cool to offer the artist an optional on-air interview in exchange for permission to play their music on your show.  I'm not an expert on Jack, just brainstorming.

Another difficulty here is that there's two sets of rights needed. Publishing rights would be the "sheet music" which is intellectually the guts of the song. Then there are the recording rights, which are the actual recordings. Some artists might have one or the other, but not both. Or worse, a portion of either. Or even worse, nothing at all.

[dan7800]

That's like a new studio each month?

Or part of a new mist tunnel, if you're a certain radio exec...
Another difficulty here is that there's two sets of rights needed. Publishing rights would be the "sheet music" which is intellectually the guts of the song. Then there are the recording rights, which are the actual recordings. Some artists might have one or the other, but not both. Or worse, a portion of either. Or even worse, nothing at all.

Music companies generally own the rights, not the artists. What the artists want is a moot point.

[ks3484]

I thought the big player might have been Live365, but here's a rough breakdown of music costs:

Check the listener hours maximum (5000) and then add the cost per additional hour at .05 per hour/listener. 10,000 listeners x 3 hours x 22 days = 660,000 listener hours - 5000 = 655,000 x .05 = $32,750 + $199 = $32,949 per MONTH.

And wait until it goes to 20,000 listeners?

http://www.live365.com/pro/royalties.live
http://www.live365.com/pro/pricing.live

Bateman has it right, now you see what we are fighting, those are the prices for playing bumper music I think it's insane, unless we can wrap what we want to do into a existing deal we are truly in trouble. People simply don't believe it can cost that much and it should not!

Art

It's just not feasible. Identifying and then hunting down the copyright holders to ask them for permission individually would be a nightmare.

No, it wouldn't be feasible nor justifiable. What Art needs to do is to begin talks/negotiations with ASCAP or/and BMI. They are the licensing agents for just about every music artist there is. Of course Universal and Sony have an incredible number artists too, past and present ones. I remember when Prince decided that Sony was gouging him he wanted to get out of his contract with Sony, but that darn non-compete clause meant that he couldn't even use the name "Prince" until his contract expired so he called himself "The Artist" because his name (Prince) was also a part of his contract.

And don't forget Michael Jackson's run in with Sony also. Because Sony had advanced him something like $200,000,000.00 and he wasn't able to pay the note. So Sony was eventually amenable during negotiations with Michael and his people to extend the amount of time Michael had to pay the note. To insure or to cover themselves Michael also had to let Sony hold his Beatle's Catalogue which also included the rights to all of the Beatle's songs. This was done essentially because Sony and Michael had become 50/50 partners when Michael merged his licensing company (ATV) with Sony's. It's was quite a business move back then for Sony and for Michael. Michael's share of the partnership is estimated at more than $1 billion dollars.

-------------------------

• Contact BMI

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         i.  Gross Revenue License Fee Calculations:
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         Or
         ii. Music Revenue License Fee Calculation
         License Fee = the greater of
            a) (Music Revenue) x (2.5%) and
            b) (Music Page Impressions/1000 x ($0.12)

   B. License fees are due when YOU file YOUR Financial Report Forms (see Paragraph 6 below).   
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[Northern Nights]

I read before that KYNE is not a viable option. I believe that was discussed many many pages ago.

I recalled that too and found the post on page 707 where somebody quoted a FB post Art made, he seemed to rule out KYNE because the record keeping of artists played was too complicated.  I wish he would clarify what he meant.

Here was the post:

Followup 3:

AB: "I could live with no music in the Podcast for download BUT I at least want it for the stream. Even that seems to be a nightmare, as we look into it. Does anybody know a Talk Host doing a stream who is using bumpers legally?

Radio stations are covered by a blanket agreement, I know because I paid it for KNYE when I owned it. It is not even clear who you must pay to use music in a stream, the record keeping is also a nightmare. Those who say just put it on a station and your covered are wrong.

Anyway we continue to try and figure it out."

[Little Hater]

I can't comprehend how one can consider the bumper music Art Bell has always played in his shows as "old tired tunes".

Art Bell's bumper music was never about exposure, and if you actually listen to the lyrics and themes of the songs he played before and after breaks you would notice how intrinsic a part of the interviews they were.

If anyone wants emerging artists they're quite welcome turn on Snorey's aberration... He's got whole shows built around that nonsense-- so as to take the focus off of himself and his failings as a host.

No need to be snotty about it - I was just asking. I have actually listened to the lyrics, and the first thousand or so times I heard that Crystal Gayle song, the meaning was deep, man. After that, not so much.

I'm only four years younger than Art, but I'm not so stuck in the past that I won't consider listening to music other than the stuff I grew up with.

Just seems to me that Art could start a new show with new music, which could easily be just as meaningful as the old stuff, but not as expensive. No one said anything about using Noory's 'emerging artists' which Tommy obviously tosses in a box and pulls several out at random each month.

[wr250]

all i have to say is "thank you big corps for paying politicians to extend copyright to life of author +70 years" and being greedy bastards. (look at legal action of the RIAA and MPIAA , nice work morons).

[AZZERAE]

No need to be snotty about it - I was just asking. I have actually listened to the lyrics, and the first thousand or so times I heard that Crystal Gayle song, the meaning was deep, man. After that, not so much.

I'm only four years younger than Art, but I'm not so stuck in the past that I won't consider listening to music other than the stuff I grew up with.

Just seems to me that Art could start a new show with new music, which could easily be just as meaningful as the old stuff, but not as expensive. No one said anything about using Noory's 'emerging artists' which Tommy obviously tosses in a box and pulls several out at random each month.

My sincere apologies for coming across as snotty.

I enjoy repetition a great deal, but my initial point was that Art's repository of music is incredibly important... In the past he has said he does add songs to that fixed collection, but some of them will always work well!

Please forgive my earlier comments, as you know it is a very uncertain time as to whether or not Art will make a comeback - so this has fueled my anxieties of late. :-(

[ks3484]

Congratulations! You qualify for one of the low-cost ASCAP form licenses. (Whether you answer yes or no to the questions above)

•
RATE SCHEDULES: "A" – "B" – "C"

Correction to the Rate Schedules Link-

• RATE SCHEDULES: "A" – "B" – "C"

Just scanning the info it seems to me that the Blanket Rates for a music license would offer the better deal. Using their formula which is the same for ASCAP and BMI - the Gross Revenue License Fee Calculation would be $24,000.00 x 1.75% = $420.00 the first year of the Blanket License for just the music. There also Administrative Fees to be paid, and the highest amount that I gleaned as I scanned the info was around $280.00.


License Fee:
In consideration of the license granted in this Agreement and subject to all terms and conditions set forth in this Agreement, LICENSEE shall calculate and pay license fees ("License Fees") to BMI  using either of the following License Fee Calculations at YOUR option:

         i.  Gross Revenue License Fee Calculations:
         License Fee= (Gross Revenue) x (1.75%)
         Or
         ii. Music Revenue License Fee Calculation
         License Fee = the greater of
            a) (Music Revenue) x (2.5%) and
            b) (Music Page Impressions/1000 x ($0.12)

__________________________

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[cweb]

Music companies generally own the rights, not the artists. What the artists want is a moot point.

Sorry if I was a little muddled there, that was generally my point. Only rarely do artists own their rights-- and they may only own one of the two sets of rights you'd need. Which makes the whole "ask the artists" thing not worth it, unfortunately.

Funny how the content originators (artists) get the biggest shaft. The majority of these ridiculous fees actually go to the publishers and the labels! It sucks how popular music in this country is essentially controlled by a duopoly.

[Chaim]

This is getting ridiculous.
Forget about streaming over one of these companies like 365 that you mentioned. You'll be at their mercy for everything, including their music prices, unless you get a personal miracle deal, which is totally unlikely.
Your best solutions are one of these:

1. get an AM Station again, do what you did when you started, maybe find a Lackey or partner for the hard work, like climbing up the towers etc. Or maybe even an FM station. You just broadcast like always, possibly you can license your show to other stations for some money.

2. just start streaming on Youtube or Twich. If you don't like to be on camera just point it at your cat or show some pictures. You can't use any music that isn't license free then of course, but there's a ton of free music out there and your listeners might help you out finding it.
Honestly, you shouldn't even want to play that old music - just give the record companies the finger and be innovative, use free music. You might even like it.

3. do what Latulipe told you.

[dan7800]

Art,

From the time when you ran your own pirate station, you've been both innovative and gone rogue. Do the same here. If a problem (the music costs) seem insurmountable, do what you've always done and find a way around the issue. I am sure there is one.

[wr250]

Art,

From the time when you ran your own pirate station, you've been both innovative and gone rogue. Do the same here. If a problem (the music costs) seem insurmountable, do what you've always done and find a way around the issue. I am sure there is one.

[ks3484]

Art, become a Live365 member because of the following cost for BMI Licensing. Have you gone over the following in your discussions? Wouldn't your operation qualify as a Minicaster? If not, the regular Website License is still low enough to cover with a few commercials. 

Live365 Members Only

BMI and Live365 are pleased to provide webcasters with a licensing solution that will make it easier to use the world’s leading music on your web site. For additional information please visit Live365.

Microcasters

Maximum of 25 simultaneous listeners
Maximum of $500.00 in revenue per month
Main offices, majority of employees, in United States

BMI Microcaster Performance Agreement

IMPORTANT NOTICE: Please be advised that BMI’s Internet licenses may not include the right to publicly perform all BMI-licensed musical works for certain types of Internet transmissions.  Please contact BMI’s Internet licensing team at weblicensing@bmi.com if you have questions about which works, or which types of transmissions, may be impacted.

Minicasters

Maximum of 500 simultaneous listeners
Maximum of $1,200.00 in revenue per month
Main offices, majority of employees, in United States
BMI Minicaster Performance Agreement

IMPORTANT NOTICE: Please be advised that BMI’s Internet licenses may not include the right to publicly perform all BMI-licensed musical works for certain types of Internet transmissions.  Please contact BMI’s Internet licensing team at weblicensing@bmi.com if you have questions about which works, or which types of transmissions, may be impacted.

[Chaim]

Art, become a Live365 member because of the following cost for BMI Licensing. Have you gone over the following in your discussions? Wouldn't your operation qualify as a Minicaster?

that's all bullshit. signing this contract is just begging for unpleasant surprises. They'll just say you made too much money, or you had too many listeners and then flood you with demands and letters from their lawyers.
Do it the old way (radio station) and hire a Mexican immigrant to climb up the towers (or a young fanatic), or find a partner who has the music fees already covered, or do it on youtube/twich with free music. seriously, people want to hear you talk anyway, the music is secondary and isn't HQ anyway over a stream. And most of your fans have your favorite music anyway in HQ mp3 at home.

[DesertFox]

This is getting ridiculous.
Forget about streaming over one of these companies like 365 that you mentioned. You'll be at their mercy for everything, including their music prices, unless you get a personal miracle deal, which is totally unlikely.
Your best solutions are one of these:

1. get an AM Station again, do what you did when you started, maybe find a Lackey or partner for the hard work, like climbing up the towers etc. Or maybe even an FM station. You just broadcast like always, possibly you can license your show to other stations for some money.

2. just start streaming on Youtube or Twich. If you don't like to be on camera just point it at your cat or show some pictures. You can't use any music that isn't license free then of course, but there's a ton of free music out there and your listeners might help you out finding it.
Honestly, you shouldn't even want to play that old music - just give the record companies the finger and be innovative, use free music. You might even like it.

3. do what Latulipe told you.

You are assuming Art won't work out this deal he has been working on--if he does then your points would be irrelevant. 

[WhiteCrow]

Using Batemans' posted numbers:

If Art had 100,000 paid subscribers that paid $10 per month.
Per subscriber about $6.00 would go for steaming/music fee and gross cash flow $4.00 to Art.

Per month gross income at with 100,000 subscribers $1,000,000.00 (5,000 listen for free)
100,000 x $10.00 = $1,000,000 - $600,000 music/streaming fees = $400,000 gross cash flow per month to Art

Annual gross income to Art and company after streaming/music fees $4,800,000.00

I'm on the next plane to Pahrump... Thar gold in them thar streams!

[pyewacket]

Art,

I really get the attachment many of us have to our favorite music. Songs can evoke memories and transport us to special times in our lives. I sincerely hope you can work out an acceptable deal for your music choices, but I also hope that you will seriously consider some alternatives.

I think of you as an innovator, one who brought something new and mind bending to radio. Obviously a lot of people wanted to listen to what you brought to the table and would like to experience it again. What happened to your show after you left was really tragic. It would be like someone painting graffiti over a classic masterpiece.



I believe this is yet another chance for you to be the great innovator that you are. Music comes and goes, but the host and content are what we really tune in to hear. Frankly, having these songs associated with C2C for the last 10-12 years has pretty much wrecked them for me.

Just one more point- my husband and I were listening to an infomercial that was selling 70s music.  We both had 8 track players back then and must have been listening to something worthwhile, but spent a half hour not really digging what we were hearing. Needless to say we didn't buy the product. 

Whatever you choose to do, I wish you well.

[Wintermute]

There is already a way around this and one I use to quite an effect. All music is iterative. Popular stuff especially which is why this type of music is licenced the way it is. It is implied intellectual property. At the end of the day it means that as long as you don't make too much money doing something similar, no one will bother you.

The work-around: re-mixing, instrumental covers that are slightly changed but still are alike enough for use. The majority of free musical content falls under this. I / we have produced a ton of it originally through Sony's AcidPlanet music workshop. Now it is distributed in every free-bee locale. I / we are hardly alone. A glut of this stuff is produced every hour. If you google something like "Cohen - everybody knows rip remix" you will come across some of these as you drill down in the search engine.

That is how DIYers and non-music AM stations get away with station break bumper music. Play a few seconds of a familiar tune that has been changed slightly. It's "fair use" and free.

[Chocolate coated jackboot]

how is BMI a non-profit company? what a joke

[Richard Groyper]

I don't understand some poster's on here. Art is going to do this on his terms only! I think he's made that crystal clear. He is at a point in his life where he doesn't think he should settle. I want him back. I want him back really bad. Unnaturally bad! It sickens me to even think about not having Art on the air again.

Keep calm & trust Art!

p.s. Plan b, I dress up like a cat. Art adopts me, and names me Picasso. In the mean time, I convince Art to come back by whispering in his ear at night. Fool proof.

[WildCard]

p.s. Plan b, I dress up like a cat. Art adopts me, and names me Picasso. In the mean time, I convince Art to come back by whispering in his ear at night. Fool proof.

If Art's cats could type - georgenoorysucks.com

[WhiteCrow]

I don't understand some poster's on here. Art is going to do this on his terms only! I think he's made that crystal clear. He is at a point in his life where he doesn't think he should settle. I want him back. I want him back really bad. Unnaturally bad! It sickens me to even think about not having Art on the air again.

Keep calm & trust Art!

p.s. Plan b, I dress up like a cat. Art adopts me, and names me Picasso. In the mean time, I convince Art to come back by whispering in his ear at night. Fool proof.

^^^^ yep, I got faith in Art, that he'll back.... Then I start reading all these posts and my little brain starts spinning and melting down with fears that he won't be back.
I'll take your advice "Keep calm & trust Art" and go back and do what I do best; hassle'in MV and troll'in on Falkie's musing thread. (smiley face crap)

[Morgus]

Just seems to me that Art could start a new show with new music, which could easily be just as meaningful as the old stuff, but not as expensive. No one said anything about using Noory's 'emerging artists' which Tommy obviously tosses in a box and pulls several out at random each month.

I recall in the early days (mid 90s) all of Art's bumper music was instrumental,  mostly Cusco which was like an emerging artist back then.
He gradually started adding his other bumper music selections in later years.
But early on (the classic shows) it was all instumental Cusco and a few others like Classical Gas, I liked that time the best...

[elbee]

MR BELL!

BATEMAN DOESN'T PAY $36,000 A MONTH AND HE PLAYS MUSIC ON HIS SHOW,

ASK HIM HOW TO DO IT!?

[IcicleTrepan]

I bet we could get JC enraged just by insisting that he's only a 9 star general and not a 10 star one.

Does he ever post here?

[bateman]

MR BELL!

BATEMAN DOESN'T PAY $36,000 A MONTH AND HE PLAYS MUSIC ON HIS SHOW,

ASK HIM HOW TO DO IT!?

I use mostly indie stuff now, or I've actually contacted the artists/labels themselves. It's really not worth the hassle (at least for me) to chase down copyright holders.