Scottish Independence

[DigitalPigSnuggler]

Some anonymous internet clown basing an opinion upon his ignorant assumption that he has more insight into the national economics of Scotland than the actual government of Scotland has.

Let me guess, you're a conservative, right?

Dint they learn ya no manners while you was in prison?

[SciFiAuthor]

Some anonymous internet clown basing an opinion upon his ignorant assumption that he has more insight into the national economics of Scotland than the actual government of Scotland has.

Let me guess, you're a conservative, right?

Well, no, actually I asked if they could support their NHS independent from the UK and since you didn't give an answer but rather a personal attack, I'd say that highlights the core problem with Scottish independence. It's based in emotion and slogan rather than reality.

I think you're little confused. There's nothing liberal or conservative about an independent Scotland. It's the creation of another border in the world. That's not liberalism, that's nationalism.

[Yorkshire pud]

Some anonymous internet clown basing an opinion upon his ignorant assumption that he has more insight into the national economics of Scotland than the actual government of Scotland has.

Let me guess, you're a conservative, right?

'The actual government of Scotland' hasn't even said what currency it's going to use. That will fundamentally decide how economically viable it will be. That being the case, no-one has any certainty of how it will be. That won't stop the financial markets shitting their pants and pulling out of Scottish based companies though. But you knew that.

[Yorkshire pud]

"That" plutocrat? As in singular? You don't understand the difference between plutocracy and dictatorship. A plutocracy is the control of Nation by a class (i.e. the wealthy) while a dictatorship is the rule of an individual. pretty simple. try to keep up.

Keep up? You thought there is still an Empire. Lol. As for a plutocracy, money owns the world, not just ths UK. In fact an estimated 85 people own 95% of the world's wealth.

Now that we know each other a little better, I can offer you the advice that when you have a question about something, just assume you're too stupid to understand it and move on.

Oh I'm not stupid, I'm just not able to follow incomprehensible ramblings, and frankly can't be arsed to expend the energy in trying.

For now. Wait until Scotland gets out and then we'll see what happens to the independence movements in those nations.

Yeah? Just for fun fill us in on just how Wales and NI would finance independence. I'll let you have tourism and slate mining for Wales to get you started.

Who said anything about their "constitutional position"?

Fuck England. In twenty years you'll be Europe's Mexico, except that the England is, of course, lacking any natural resources. . .and also none of you rat toothed limey runts can make a taco worth a fuck.

Wow! You really do have your finger on the pulse. No doubt about it. Did the rest of your sociology course cover 'make it up as you go along'?

[WOTR]

This reminds me of the adage: Be careful what you wish for.

Funny how nobody has tied this into the Quebec vote for independence.  So many unanswered questions.  People are generally told by the side pushing for independence to "not worry" about it.  Everything will work out...

There is a part of me that kind of wants to see what happens when a "yes" vote wins.  It may be upon our country again faster than I care to consider.

[FightTheFuture]

I just thought of something. If Scotland becomes independent, will they pull the lease on our submarine base??

Perhaps the forum Limeys can enlighten us.

[nooryisawesome]

[Yorkshire pud]

I just thought of something. If Scotland becomes independent, will they pull the lease on our submarine base??

Perhaps the forum Limeys can enlighten us.

One of the remits for independence has been the removal of Faslane submarine base. Together with the missile storage facility in Glenn Douglas. Rosyth navel base and many many secure places that support the infrastructure.

The MoD have mooted that the whole lot could be moved south to Portsmouth or Plymouth, but thus far there have been no plans presented exactly how, where and when that would happen. It's a colossal undertaking; the LF communication to subs uses the ground of Scotland to generate the signals-although I'm sure these days the modern subs have wild and wonderful ways of keeping in touch whilst underwater.

This is quite apart from the membership of NATO, or even if Scotland will have it's own military infrastructure. It simply couldn't afford it. I seriously fear the future of Scotland if they vote yes. It really doesn't look good, and it's being led by a bloke who is saying 'I say so' as his clarion call.

[Yorkshire pud]

I've been to Scotland many times, I've yet to be treated in any way other than friendly and welcoming-yes, even in Glasgow!

[aldousburbank]

No country is an island.
Quiet Jaz

[albrecht]

One of the remits for independence has been the removal of Faslane submarine base. Together with the missile storage facility in Glenn Douglas. Rosyth navel base and many many secure places that support the infrastructure.

The MoD have mooted that the whole lot could be moved south to Portsmouth or Plymouth, but thus far there have been no plans presented exactly how, where and when that would happen. It's a colossal undertaking; the LF communication to subs uses the ground of Scotland to generate the signals-although I'm sure these days the modern subs have wild and wonderful ways of keeping in touch whilst underwater.

This is quite apart from the membership of NATO, or even if Scotland will have it's own military infrastructure. It simply couldn't afford it. I seriously fear the future of Scotland if they vote yes. It really doesn't look good, and it's being led by a bloke who is saying 'I say so' as his clarion call.

Maybe the command and control could be moved south to Portsmouth or Plymouth but I don't think the subs and testing could. Not deep enough and also too close to population/cities so not secret enough. Of course, the leftists could care less about defense (defence to you lot) or submarines or whatever. The vote is just like a free concert in the park. It is great until the next day when you have to deal with the trash, taking apart the stages, deal with the crimes that occurred, etc. Personally, I don't understand why the adults, and the government, haven't pointed out the problems in stronger terms ( what happens with regard to currency, military, pensions, NHS, businesses, banking, treaties and international organizations (EU, Schengen, Interpol, UN, NATO, etc), passports, military pensions, property, etc.)

[Yorkshire pud]

Maybe the command and control could be moved south to Portsmouth or Plymouth but I don't think the subs and testing could. Not deep enough and also too close to population/cities so not secret enough. Of course, the leftists could care less about defense (defence to you lot) or submarines or whatever. The vote is just like a free concert in the park. It is great until the next day when you have to deal with the trash, taking apart the stages, deal with the crimes that occurred, etc. Personally, I don't understand why the adults, and the government, haven't pointed out the problems in stronger terms ( what happens with regard to currency, military, pensions, NHS, businesses, banking, treaties and international organizations (EU, Schengen, Interpol, UN, NATO, etc), passports, military pensions, property, etc.)

They have. But Il presedentie Salmond says it's all in hand, and he's accusing those saying there should be a no vote of scare mongering. Remarkably (I was genuinely gobsmacked) an interview on radio today with George Galloway - the left wing Scottish firebrand who told congress Rumsfeld had met Saddam Hussein more times than he had- who pretty much said Salmond was a traitor to the UK and Scotland! This prompted the interviewer to naturally point out their common left wing leanings. Galloway responded that Salmond wasn't representing Scotland or left wing principles. He was reaaaally angry!

[VtaGeezer]

An orgy of repressed tribalism and nationalism.  The fooking highland fetish industry is behind it to boost kilt sales. Sixteen year-olds getting a vote.  Brilliant! 

[Yorkshire pud]

An orgy of repressed tribalism and nationalism.  The fooking highland fetish industry is behind it to boost kilt sales. Sixteen year-olds getting a vote.  Brilliant!

It's worth remembering the yes/no split is so close it's almost changing on a daily basis the last week depending which poll you look at. That being the case, half the population are going to be very unpopular to the other for a long time to come. Two new clans will spring up and be mortal enemies...The Yes and No clans. This could be very nasty.

[albrecht]

It's worth remembering the yes/no split is so close it's almost changing on a daily basis the last week depending which poll you look at. That being the case, half the population are going to be very unpopular to the other for a long time to come. Two new clans will spring up and be mortal enemies...The Yes and No clans. This could be very nasty.

Who counts the votes? Who is monitoring the counters? What kind of voting is being used (vote by mail, in person, electronic machines or paper?) Apparently those Scots outside Scotland can't vote? Why? What about those in the military or working overseas? Their opinion doesn't matter? Are there any outside or international monitors? (I'm just getting ready for the aftermath of complaints and conspiracy theories.)

[VtaGeezer]

It's worth remembering the yes/no split is so close it's almost changing on a daily basis the last week depending which poll you look at. That being the case, half the population are going to be very unpopular to the other for a long time to come. Two new clans will spring up and be mortal enemies...The Yes and No clans. This could be very nasty.

The dark underbelly of ethnic autonomy is quick to raise its head where a national govt allows the locals a choice to revert to the tribe. Though in the UK's case, it would probably help if the Scots spoke English.  We watch with great interest...it's coming here to the US soon.

[Yorkshire pud]

Who counts the votes? Who is monitoring the counters? What kind of voting is being used (vote by mail, in person, electronic machines or paper?) Apparently those Scots outside Scotland can't vote? Why? What about those in the military or working overseas? Their opinion doesn't matter? Are there any outside or international monitors? (I'm just getting ready for the aftermath of complaints and conspiracy theories.)

The votes are counted by a team of counters. The result is declared by:

The Convener of the EMB, Mary Pitcaithly, has also been appointed as Chief Counting Officer (CCO) for the Scottish Independence Referendum in September 2014.

http://www.electionsscotland.info/

Postal votes are already in, but won't be counted until the whole lot is in to be counted. It's a simple cross on a sheet and folded and put in a sealed box. We don't need international monitors in the UK, we usually rise above the colonies when it comes to voting and propriety of the returning officers and officials. It's the politicians that lie and cheat. 


It was Salmond who decided on 16 year olds being able to vote and only those resident (or proxy if armed forces overseas) in Scotland. Scottish people living outside can't, English (or any other naturalised resident)  living in Scotland, can. English, Welsh, and Northern Irish can't, even though it will affect all the UK.

[pate]

Personally my opinion is, as they're part of the United Kingdom currently, ALL parts of the Union should have been given the vote in the referendum. England, Wales and Northern Ireland, and of course the Islands. I love Scotland, it's for me the most beautiful place I've ever visited, and I really don't want to see it fall because of the actions of a megalomaniac.

I'll take that as you backing away from a previous statement you made about opting out...

Something like "If you don't like socialism you can opt out of it"

Apparently in the real world it doesn't work like that, you can opt out if we choose to allow it?

Anyhoot, I'm American, I've no real business messing around in your politics do I?  My clan (MacFarland) hasn't been in Scotland for a long time.  In fact I think the clan Chief's seat sits empty and has for quite some time.  I don't really see us coming back to Scotland in anycase, as we apparently backed the wrong Crown back in the day...

So, it will be interesting to see how the vote turns out.

As for a poverty stricken independent Scotland, I am not so sure... 

I did read an interesting book about three years ago:

How the Scots Invented the Modern World: The True Story of How Western Europe's Poorest Nation Created Our World & Everything in It by Arthur Herman

I think an independent Scotland would make out just fine.

That you are against a 'no' vote I suppose is enough reason for me to vote 'yes' (as if either of our votes mattered in the situation!) 

[Yorkshire pud]

I'll take that as you backing away from a previous statement you made about opting out...

Something like "If you don't like socialism you can opt out of it"

Not sure how you equate a vote for independence as socialism. This isn't being fought on  party lines, other than the Scottish Nationalists V everyone else; Labour, Tories and the rest. There is next to no Tory base in Scotland, going back to Thatcher's time in office. She's still hated with a vengence.

Apparently in the real world it doesn't work like that, you can opt out if we choose to allow it?

But this isn't a concensus. It's a division pretty much 50/50. Whichever side wins there will be a long painful aftermath. I really hope there isn't, but I can't see either side being magnanimous in defeat.

Anyhoot, I'm American, I've no real business messing around in your politics do I?  My clan (MacFarland) hasn't been in Scotland for a long time.  In fact I think the clan Chief's seat sits empty and has for quite some time.  I don't really see us coming back to Scotland in anycase, as we apparently backed the wrong Crown back in the day...

So, it will be interesting to see how the vote turns out.

As for a poverty stricken independent Scotland, I am not so sure... 

I did read an interesting book about three years ago:

How the Scots Invented the Modern World: The True Story of How Western Europe's Poorest Nation Created Our World & Everything in It by Arthur Herman

I think an independent Scotland would make out just fine.

That you are against a 'no' vote I suppose is enough reason for me to vote 'yes' (as if either of our votes mattered in the situation!) 

Most of Salmond's evidence of independent prosperity is based on him saying it will be. A leaked memo between senior NHS managers says independence will cause a  £450 million shortfall. Salmond is aware of this because his sidekick Sturgen has tried to spin it as not being the case.

[MagnificentBastard]

Whichever side wins there will be a long painful aftermath.

Maybe. Maybe not. That'll only be the case if Scotland's economy does poorly compared to that of the rest of the UK.  If it passes, the queen (through parliament) could just deny  the Scots have the legal right to declare independence and force them to bring it before a vote in the UK, where it will be soundly defeated. At that point, support for independence will increase as well as the possibility of violent resistance to British rule.

Good for the Scots though. England is nothing but a future banana republic. It's a trivial little island that's been in steady decline for generations. The only thing propping it up is the fact that it's a grovelling toadie for US interests.

[Yorkshire pud]

Maybe. Maybe not. That'll only be the case if Scotland's economy does poorly compared to that of the rest of the UK.  If it passes, the queen (through parliament) could just deny  the Scots have the legal right to declare independence and force them to bring it before a vote in the UK, where it will be soundly defeated. At that point, support for independence will increase as well as the possibility of violent resistance to British rule.

Erm, no. No idea where you get that idea from, but no.

Good for the Scots though. England is nothing but a future banana republic. It's a trivial little island that's been in steady decline for generations. The only thing propping it up is the fact that it's a grovelling toadie for US interests.

Blimey, you really do have a poor grasp of the world...C'est la vie.

[MagnificentBastard]

Blimey, you really do have a poor grasp of the world...C'est la vie.

Nah, you're in denial. The UK is an animal dying of a parasitic infection called The City.

[Yorkshire pud]

Nah, you're in denial. The UK is an animal dying of a parasitic infection called The City.

I'm sure you think you're right. Keep believing.

[GeorgieForPresident2216]

Maybe. Maybe not. That'll only be the case if Scotland's economy does poorly compared to that of the rest of the UK.  If it passes, the queen (through parliament) could just deny  the Scots have the legal right to declare independence and force them to bring it before a vote in the UK, where it will be soundly defeated. At that point, support for independence will increase as well as the possibility of violent resistance to British rule.

Good for the Scots though. England is nothing but a future banana republic. It's a trivial little island that's been in steady decline for generations. The only thing propping it up is the fact that it's a grovelling toadie for US interests.

Steady decline?  Future banana republic?  Sounds like the U.S.A.

[DigitalPigSnuggler]

I'm sure you think you're right. Keep believing.

MB: You're in denial.

YP: No, I'm not.

[Yorkshire pud]

I came across this...

[b_dubb]

FREE HAGGIS!!!!!

[Yorkshire pud]

This is quite good.

And the ballot paper explained. Seems clear enough.... :

[FightTheFuture]

http://www.deadlinenews.co.uk/2011/01/23/haggis-inedible-says-us-government/




...AND I AGREE!

[Yorkshire pud]

http://www.deadlinenews.co.uk/2011/01/23/haggis-inedible-says-us-government/




...AND I AGREE!

Wasn't that rescinded earlier this year? I don't like it myself, but I don't like black pudding either (yes it's a Lancashire 'delicacy' ), disgusting. As it is and how it can be served.