Scottish Independence

[pate]

I'm full on for Scots Independence.

I found this advert apparently running in Scotland.  It has subtitles in case anyone finds the accent confusing.


Patronising Better Together Woman with subtitles. Now eat your cereal!

So if I am reading this right, a 'no' vote for independence is a Conservative stand?  And the forward thinking non-woman haters are a 'yes' vote for Scots independence?

[Yorkshire pud]

I'm full on for Scots Independence.

I found this advert apparently running in Scotland.  It has subtitles in case anyone finds the accent confusing.


Patronising Better Together Woman with subtitles. Now eat your cereal!

So if I am reading this right, a 'no' vote for independence is a Conservative stand?  And the forward thinking non-woman haters are a 'yes' vote for Scots independence?

You're full on for Scottish independence on what basis? Which currency will be used? How will pensions be treated? You know don't you that Salmond is what you in the states would call a 'lefty'? He's riding the Yes campaign on the premise that if Scotland doesn't get independence, by some measure of a nebulous not fully explained reason, the end of civilisation would ensue. Oh, and he want's Faslane submarine base to be shut down, no nuclear weapons to be stored in Scotland. He's also suggesting (with some justification I might add) that Cameron and the Tories want to privatise the NHS, and an independent Scotland would be immune from it.

This isn't about having another shot in four or five years time if you don't like the leader; this could be the worst thing that could happen to Scotland. I know several Scots and English people (retired) who are now selling up and moving over the border into England, they're frightened that there'll be a grab of their pension pot-and legally yes, it could happen. Businesses are considering moving away from Scotland; a population that doesn't enjoy 100% employment.

Personally my opinion is, as they're part of the United Kingdom currently, ALL parts of the Union should have been given the vote in the referendum. England, Wales and Northern Ireland, and of course the Islands. I love Scotland, it's for me the most beautiful place I've ever visited, and I really don't want to see it fall because of the actions of a megalomaniac.

[BobGrau]

...Personally my opinion is, as they're part of the United Kingdom currently, ALL parts of the Union should have been given the vote in the referendum. England, Wales and Northern Ireland, and of course the Islands...

This.

[FightTheFuture]

WWWW

What Would Willie Want







Hmmm...I think we know

[Yorkshire pud]

WWWW

What Would Willie Want





Hmmm...I think we know

An Australian and now living the US about a Scot filmed in Ireland.....(The face paint was made up).

[FightTheFuture]

An Australian and now living the US about a Scot filmed in Ireland.....(The face paint was made up).

Wrong! He`s an American. AND it was filmed in Scotland as well. Blue coloring? Well...we just don`t KNOW, do we now??


WHAT WOULD WILLIE WANT?



You know what Willie would want

[UnscreenedCaller]

This reminds me of the adage: Be careful what you wish for. My Twitter feed, for some reason, is filled with a lot of separatists who are basically blah blah blah offshore oil blah blah blah vote independence blah blah and personal attacks on those who want to remain part of the UK. I see very little planning into what will inevitably happen economically and socially if and when Scotland chooses to separate. I recall there are similar leanings within the Plaid Cymru party in Wales which has so far come to nought. Admittedly, I am not well versed in Scottish politics, but it seems to me as an outsider that there is more to lose in separating than there is to gain, but that's just my American former colony two cents.

Oh, and then there are the people who think Braveheart was a documentary.

An Australian and now living the US about a Scot filmed in Ireland.....(The face paint was made up).

Sadly, NY must lay claim to Mr. Gibson as he was born in Peekskill before his father moved the family to Australia. And now he's back.

[FightTheFuture]

FREEEEEEEEEDOMMMMMM



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gr_OpFxCx-A#t=36



Love this scene. Hell, makes me wanna grab the long sword and hack up some filthy limeys.

[Yorkshire pud]

FREEEEEEEEEDOMMMMMM



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gr_OpFxCx-A#t=36



Love this scene. Hell, makes me wanna grab the long sword and hack up some filthy limeys.

Do explain how you define 'freedom' in this case. I'm keen to learn. 

[FightTheFuture]

Do explain how you define 'freedom' in this case. I'm keen to learn. 

Why don`t you ask them? What I think is wholly irrelevant. I`m just enjoying the show.


Any more stupid questions?

[Yorkshire pud]

Why don`t you ask them? What I think is wholly irrelevant. I`m just enjoying the show.


Any more stupid questions?

No such thing as a stupid question...Loads of stupid answers though.   

It would have been nice if we had all been asked, and had it explained what the result of independence will be. No-one can or is willing to be honest on the 'Yes' side. 

[DigitalPigSnuggler]

Do explain how you define 'freedom' in this case.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=MnGzl-OEyGE

[Yorkshire pud]

www.youtube.com/embed/MnGzl-OEyGE

Someone I know who is voting No said a good anology of Salmond's philosophy is a teenager leaving home to go and live the life and take his dad's credit card to do it.

[albrecht]

1) what happens to the Pound?
2) what happens to the defense (defence for you lot) forces and based in Scotland? And their pensions for former military?
3) would the independent Scotland be a part of the EU, Schengen Treaty, NATO, Interpol, etc automatically or would they need to re-apply? Also, I presume, new passports would need to be issued would Scots need a VISA to visit the remaining UK?
4) If this happens will Rangers supporters be arrested for a "hate crime" if they wave the Union Jack at games?
5) why would this vote be accepted by international bodies and other countries but votes, say in parts of the Ukraine, be roundly condemned even though the vote was far more "yes" and not as divisive, or close, as this vote appears to be?
6) I assume that property ownership rights would be retained (by private people even if English, by the Crown, etc) but would this be so or would the new Scotland seize property or assets from people?

[Yorkshire pud]

1) what happens to the Pound?

The rest of the UK will keep it, Salmond hasn't said which currency will be used. He's muttered they could use the Euro, but that would mean being members of the EU; the rest of the EU has said that isn't a foregone conclusion.

2) what happens to the defense (defence for you lot) forces and based in Scotland? And their pensions for former military?

Salmond has demanded the removal of the nuclear weapons used on subs at Faslane...No idea about the rest.

3) would the independent Scotland be a part of the EU, Schengen Treaty, NATO, Interpol, etc automatically or would they need to re-apply? Also, I presume, new passports would need to be issued would Scots need a VISA to visit the remaining UK?
4) If this happens will Rangers supporters be arrested for a "hate crime" if they wave the Union Jack at games?
5) why would this vote be accepted by international bodies and other countries but votes, say in parts of the Ukraine, be roundly condemned even though the vote was far more "yes" and not as divisive, or close, as this vote appears to be?
6) I assume that property ownership rights would be retained (by private people even if English, by the Crown, etc) but would this be so or would the new Scotland seize property or assets from people?

Erm, nothing is clear on that lot.

Put better than I could.                                                 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

it's rather hard to take it seriously when all we get from from Salmond faction is bluster and b/s. For example statements like this http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-29204886 one which sound very encouraging, or at least would do if it actually came from the supermarkets rather than from Il Presidente - pretty well everything he says amounts to "it will be brilliant because I say so, and anyone who gainsays me is either part of the 'Westminster elite' (whatever that is) or is wrong. The world is what I say it is and anyone who says otherwise is just bullying."

He says the moving of blue-chip brass plaques will make no difference, yet the companies themselves say otherwise and the country hosting the brass plaques gets their taxes. He says there will be a currency union, but the other party says we can't have one. He bases his revenue predictions on oil at $117/barrel, but everyone else says $90-$110/barrel is the most likely range. He says Scotland will remain in the EU by right, everyone else (eg the EU) says no it won't, and to rejoin he'll have to adopt the Euro. He says Scotland will remain in NATO whilst refusing to adopt the NATO nuclear arms policy, NATO says this is not possible. He says the Royal Navy will continue to place ship orders with Scottish yards, but the MoD says it can't. He says that an independent Scotland can determine its own taxes, yet he has had those powers for some years and hasn't used them because he knows that he will have to increase tax rates to deliver his promises...

On the *substantive* issues there is no case for an independent Scotland in the Salmond model, so he's fighting it purely on the emotional/nationalism/racism ticket, like all nationalist dictator wannabes - he's running a campaign based on hate (hatred of the English in general and this mythical "Westminster elite" in particular). That's fair enough - he can do that if he wants to (it shows his true colours), but if you demonise another country you can hardly expect it to be your best pal next week. If he wins it will take several decades for the savage hatred to be forgotten by the English. As it stands the most likely response to a vote for independence will be an English popular demand to seal the land border with Scotland and introduce strict visa requirements for its people.

He needs to stop campaigning with vitriolic attacks on the English and start campaigning on the issues, except that he can't because the issues don't support his case. So he lies, he blusters and he obfuscates the data. He said he had a legal opinion saying Scotland could stay in the EU, but refused to release it. When the court forced him to release it we found out that he'd made it up - it was a king-size porky. He's consistently refused to release clear, traceable economic data (strange, given that the man is an economist and a banker by trade). When it emerged that major businesses were planning to move to England after a Yes vote he complained to the police about the data leak rather than addressing the issues which these FACTS gave rise to.

Would you buy a second-hand country from this man?

[albrecht]

The rest of the UK will keep it, Salmond hasn't said which currency will be used. He's muttered they could use the Euro, but that would mean being members of the EU; the rest of the EU has said that isn't a foregone conclusion.

Salmond has demanded the removal of the nuclear weapons used on subs at Faslane...No idea about the rest.


Erm, nothing is clear on that lot.

Put better than I could.                                                 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Any time I see things like "youth vote" I get concerned. "Youth" often have not had the experiences and are still usually a net-gainer from others (parents, governments, schools, tax rebates, social services) and have yet understood things like taxes, running a business, politics, buying a house, etc. I don't have a dog in the fight (though lived in both Glasgow and London and love both countries) but it is a little disconcerting that something so complex and potentially historical is being treated like some free concert in the park by "youth" and leftists. How can one even vote on such an issue without understanding what the ramifications are? I don't even live there now but it took me all of 1 minute to come up with questions above. And I'm sure there are many, many other issues that would need to be addressed.

[Yorkshire pud]

Any time I see things like "youth vote" I get concerned. "Youth" often have not had the experiences and are still usually a net-gainer from others (parents, governments, schools, tax rebates, social services) and have yet understood things like taxes, running a business, politics, buying a house, etc. I don't have a dog in the fight (though lived in both Glasgow and London and love both countries) but it is a little disconcerting that something so complex and potentially historical is being treated like some free concert in the park by "youth" and leftists. How can one even vote on such an issue without understanding what the ramifications are? I don't even live there now but it took me all of 1 minute to come up with questions above. And I'm sure there are many, many other issues that would need to be addressed.

I agree---is that a first? A blinder was played when the vote was opened to aged sixteen and above. Young, idealist, and the future. How better to secure a vote? I know if I were 16 I would have chosen independence. I'm older and uglier and nothing would tempt me to make the same decision now.

[MagnificentBastard]

You're full on for Scottish independence on what basis?

On the basis of natural selection. Face it, the UK is a collapsing empire that is fully infected by an utterly self-serving neo-fascist plutocracy. Why would any nation subjugated by England during it's historical heyday remain in that client state status now that England lacks the force, or future prospects, to maintain it? At one point, the UK at least had something to offer to Scotland, but now it's a sinking ship. Any halfway rational human being can see that there's no foresight in Scotland choosing to remain as a carrion scavenger on the corpse of the British empire now that the corpse has been picked clean (which is what you're arguing to vehemently in favor of).

There are significant independence movements in Ireland and Wales as well. It'd be interesting to see what happened if Wales became independent. The royal family would have to scramble to find some new excuse to base their claim to landed nobility upon. . . with obscure wealthy elite all claiming title to the throne of England. . .wigged heads rolling in the gutter. Gay action in the streets.

[albrecht]

I agree---is that a first?

I think we agreed on some good beers before. 
It is sort of funny, but not haha funny, everyone was worried about places like N.Ireland, Gibraltar, and The Falklands under various administrations and now they are, possibly, letting Scotland go without much thought on the actual ramifications. Who would've thought.

[Yorkshire pud]

On the basis of natural selection. Face it, the UK is a collapsing empire

The Empire ceased in 1946....

that is fully infected by an utterly self-serving neo-fascist plutocracy.

Go on, name that plutocrat....

Why would any nation subjugated by England during it's historical heyday remain in that client state status now that England lacks the force, or future prospects, to maintain it?

Not sure I know what you mean there, I think that makes both of us..

At one point, the UK at least had something to offer to Scotland, but now it's a sinking ship. Any halfway rational human being can see that there's no foresight in Scotland choosing to remain as a carrion scavenger on the corpse of the British empire now that the corpse has been picked clean (which is what you're arguing to vehemently in favor of).

We don't have an Empire, we haven't for a long time, so what is it you're referring to?

There are significant independence movements in Ireland and Wales as well. It'd be interesting to see what happened if Wales became independent.

So far all polls to ask have resulted in a strong majority wanting to stay in the Union.

The royal family would have to scramble to find some new excuse to base their claim to landed nobility upon. . . with obscure wealthy elite all claiming title to the throne of England. . .wigged heads rolling in the gutter. Gay action in the streets.

Erm, do you actually know what the constitutional position is of the Royal family? I'm guessing no.

[MrMajestik]

O.K. i guess I'm showing my typical American ignorance, but how can there be a binding vote to leave the U.K. without voters throughout the U.K. having a say.
Was there ever a referendum that allowed Scots to make the decision themselves? Did the British Parliament bypass the U.K. voters somehow by creating this?

[Yorkshire pud]

O.K. i guess I'm showing my typical American ignorance, but how can there be a binding vote to leave the U.K. without voters throughout the U.K. having a say.
Was there ever a referendum that allowed Scots to make the decision themselves? Did the British Parliament bypass the U.K. voters somehow by creating this?

Scotland in it's capacity to having limited autonomous governance held a vote to decide if they wished to be independent of the rest of the UK about two years ago. It was open to residents on the electoral register (not necessarily Scottish by birth) from aged 16. That referendum is to be held this thursday. The people of England, wales and Northern Ireland didn't have a say, nor do Scots living in other countries. That isn't anything to do with Parliament, but a condition set down in the original discussions in Hollyrood (The Scottish assembly).

The vote to leave will be binding; it won't of course all happen overnight, but by this time next year, Scotland could be a self governing and self financing country.

[Juan]

According to PJ O'Rourke, an independent Scotland will be a hilarious disaster - a third world country without the warm weather
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/09/13/up-to-a-point-a-free-scotland-would-be-a-hilarious-disaster.html

Enjoy.

[Robert Ghostwolf's Ghost]

According to PJ O'Rourke, an independent Scotland will be a hilarious disaster - a third world country without the warm weather
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/09/13/up-to-a-point-a-free-scotland-would-be-a-hilarious-disaster.html

Enjoy.

Classic P.J.!  I've been a fan since the old "National Lampoon" days.

[SciFiAuthor]

You're full on for Scottish independence on what basis? Which currency will be used? How will pensions be treated? You know don't you that Salmond is what you in the states would call a 'lefty'? He's riding the Yes campaign on the premise that if Scotland doesn't get independence, by some measure of a nebulous not fully explained reason, the end of civilisation would ensue. Oh, and he want's Faslane submarine base to be shut down, no nuclear weapons to be stored in Scotland. He's also suggesting (with some justification I might add) that Cameron and the Tories want to privatise the NHS, and an independent Scotland would be immune from it.

This isn't about having another shot in four or five years time if you don't like the leader; this could be the worst thing that could happen to Scotland. I know several Scots and English people (retired) who are now selling up and moving over the border into England, they're frightened that there'll be a grab of their pension pot-and legally yes, it could happen. Businesses are considering moving away from Scotland; a population that doesn't enjoy 100% employment.

Personally my opinion is, as they're part of the United Kingdom currently, ALL parts of the Union should have been given the vote in the referendum. England, Wales and Northern Ireland, and of course the Islands. I love Scotland, it's for me the most beautiful place I've ever visited, and I really don't want to see it fall because of the actions of a megalomaniac.

I usually don't agree with you Pud, but this time I do. This is probably the single most reckless, half-cocked, needless move I've ever seen in a voting referendum. It's like voting for economic collapse, poverty and a tax hike. I mean, can Scotland even sustain an NHS without the collective money of the rest of the UK? Do they even realize how subsidized they are? Why in god's name would anyone in their right mind in the UK wish to separate themselves from the economic powerhouse of London?

What'll happen is that they'll end up dramatically worse off and then they'll just end up as a client state of the remaining UK and probably asking the EU and US for aid.

[MagnificentBastard]

Go on, name that plutocrat....

"That" plutocrat? As in singular? You don't understand the difference between plutocracy and dictatorship. A plutocracy is the control of Nation by a class (i.e. the wealthy) while a dictatorship is the rule of an individual. pretty simple. try to keep up.

Not sure I know what you mean there, I think that makes both of us..

Now that we know each other a little better, I can offer you the advice that when you have a question about something, just assume you're too stupid to understand it and move on.

So far all polls to ask have resulted in a strong majority wanting to stay in the Union. 

For now. Wait until Scotland gets out and then we'll see what happens to the independence movements in those nations.

Erm, do you actually know what the constitutional position is of the Royal family? I'm guessing no.

Who said anything about their "constitutional position"?

Fuck England. In twenty years you'll be Europe's Mexico, except that the England is, of course, lacking any natural resources. . .and also none of you rat toothed limey runts can make a taco worth a fuck.

[Vladimir]

Independent Scotland? Independent from what?
They should simply stick to doing what they do best: Distilling good whiskey.

[MagnificentBastard]

I mean, can Scotland even sustain an NHS without the collective money of the rest of the UK? Do they even realize how subsidized they are?

Some anonymous internet clown basing an opinion upon his ignorant assumption that he has more insight into the national economics of Scotland than the actual government of Scotland has.

Let me guess, you're a conservative, right?

[GeorgieForPresident2216]

Since I have nothing intelligent to add, I would just like to note that this was inevitable.  The Scots are a contentious people.  In the wise words of Groundskeeper Willie (a Scot),

"It won't last. Brothers and sisters are natural enemies! Like Englishmen and Scots! Or Welshmen and Scots! Or Japanese and Scots! Or Scots and other Scots! Damn Scots! They ruined Scotland!"

[DigitalPigSnuggler]

Who said anything about their "constitutional position"?

I was a little perplexed that he got his back up about that and not "wigged heads rolling in the gutter [and] Gay action in the streets."  The English have a weird set of priorities.  And the language is strange, too.  Maybe it's all that "rum, sodomy, and the lash."