“What the hell is a bitcoin?”

[albrecht]

I find it very interesting that you are happy with this turn of events.  I am one of the few who (somewhat) agrees with you that a bitcoin in its purest form is actually superior to fiat currency.

This move seems to move further away from the bitcoin ideal.  When the US government sold the coins seized from the silk road and shut down exchanges I became more concerned.

When the idea behind the cryptocurrencies is the most free wheeling open market currency available you have to be concerned once it starts falling to the governments to regulate it.  Essentially, you are celebrating regulation, taxation, commodification and government control.

You go ahead and celebrate this "victory" and I will say it spells the begining of the end of the experiment.  Already governments have declared that bitcoin is taxable.  Now it will fall under "know your customer" laws.  Transaction fees are decried and hated in the crypto community, but they readily accept that fees paid to escrow are necessary.  Now we will have a financial products company taking their cut as well.

The only thing to make the destruction of bitcoin complete is a fractional banking system.  I have confidence that the best and brightest on Wall Street will have some way to bring that in within a few years (will it be deposit BTC and lend in USD?)  Who knows.

For now I will restate my displeasure at the very event that you celebrate.  Oddly, it is not because I believe it will drive the value down (it may well help legitimize BTC and drive the value up.)  However, I am in it for the principal and find this is a major erosion or the values behind crypto.

The easiest (and only) way the government was ever going to neutralize the threat that a freely traded "currency" that was out of their control posed was to regulate it until it was impotent.  Argue that this is an "opt in" model and that only a small number of investors have taken advantage if you choose- but in essence this paves the way for compete control over a system that was supposed to be outside of the governments control.  It opens the door to Goldman Sachs to game what was supposed to be ungamable and manipulate what was supposed to be out of their control.

Good bye Bitcoin...

I admittedly do not know much about bitcoin but two things I question:
1) the whole "mining" thing. Does that end at some point? Isn't this the same as a government "printing money" and cause inflation or undermines the bitcoins?

2) this whole idea that the transactional history of the bitcoin is contained in the coin. Doesn't that mean it is even more trackable than cash (and even more trackable and surveillable than credit cards?) So much for privacy.

[GeorgieForPresident2216]

I admittedly do not know much about bitcoin but two things I question:
1) the whole "mining" thing. Does that end at some point? Isn't this the same as a government "printing money" and cause inflation or undermines the bitcoins?

2) this whole idea that the transactional history of the bitcoin is contained in the coin. Doesn't that mean it is even more trackable than cash (and even more trackable and surveillable than credit cards?) So much for privacy.

1) There is a maximum cap of about 21 million bitcoins.  Once they have all been mined, no more can be created.  As more are introduced, mining becomes more and more difficult effectively putting a cap on how quickly the supply can grow. 

2) I can't really speak to this question but I don't think the transactional histories are contained in the coin.  Somehow the coins themselves are based on a cryptic security algorithm which I don't pretend to understand.  I'm sure many on here do though.

I should probably bone up on how the coding works so I can talk about this more effectively.

edit:  I guess you're right.  The blockchain records transaction histories.  I'm learning a lot about my own ignorance 

[WOTR]

I admittedly do not know much about bitcoin but two things I question:
1) the whole "mining" thing. Does that end at some point? Isn't this the same as a government "printing money" and cause inflation or undermines the bitcoins?

2) this whole idea that the transactional history of the bitcoin is contained in the coin. Doesn't that mean it is even more trackable than cash (and even more trackable and surveillable than credit cards?) So much for privacy.

The first question was pretty much answered.  They are created at a predetermined rate.  That rate is halved on a schedule (making them much harder to mine.)  There is an end.

A bitcoin is completely open- you can track it.  However, if I create a wallet on a new computer there is no need to link the wallet to my personal identity.  They are as anonymous as the owner of the wallet wants to make them (and has the technological know how to make them.)

If I buy something from a store, that business has it show in their wallet.  This also means that their competitors would know how many bitcoins they bring in and how many are sitting in their wallet.  It is also what makes escrow work so well for services and goods.  The person holding the escrow has a wallet that is completely public.  Everybody can see that they hold the coins and it keeps things honest as long as the holder of the escrow values their reputation.

With that said, there is almost no way to know who a random wallet address belongs to.  i can create a new one tomorrow and it would have not history.  On the other hand, if I purchase a pizza and send bitcoin to a wallet I would know the wallet address and the identity of the person.  Once they move it I could still track where it goes- but there is almost no way that I would know if it went to their supplier, and employee or to purchase another service.

Finally, there are "laundering" services.  Basically, you submit your coins to the service.  They "mix" them with hundreds of others and distribute them to the end source.  Bits and pieces of each coin end up mixed with the others and it creates a kind of anonymizer although the information is completely public and available.

That is pretty much how the silk road worked.  I would create a wallet, buy bitcoins for cash, forward them to the dealer along with my address and they would send me the drugs, guns, fake passport or what have you.  I trust the dealer not to release my name (and there was at least one case of somebody who threatened to do just that.)  The owner of the silk road supposedly "solicited a murder-for-hire" of a Canadian Silk Road user nicknamed FriendlyChemist who had tried to extort money by threatening to release the identities of thousands of the site's users.

It goes on and on and gets quite interesting.  The short answer to your question is that the record of where coins came from, reside and are sent is completely public.  Trying to track down the person behind those addresses is very difficult.  The FBI would have had the wallet addresses of the owner of the silk road and it took them years to identify him.

I hope at least most of that made sense.  It is late... If you want clarification on something ask and I will try to respond when I am more awake.

[area51drone]

Trying to track down the person behind those addresses is very difficult.  The FBI would have had the wallet addresses of the owner of the silk road and it took them years to identify him.

Probably not.  My guess is they knew who he was almost immediately and took years building a case against him that would stick.   

[albrecht]

The first question was pretty much answered.  They are created at a predetermined rate.  That rate is halved on a schedule (making them much harder to mine.)  There is an end.

A bitcoin is completely open- you can track it.  However, if I create a wallet on a new computer there is no need to link the wallet to my personal identity.  They are as anonymous as the owner of the wallet wants to make them (and has the technological know how to make them.)

If I buy something from a store, that business has it show in their wallet.  This also means that their competitors would know how many bitcoins they bring in and how many are sitting in their wallet.  It is also what makes escrow work so well for services and goods.  The person holding the escrow has a wallet that is completely public.  Everybody can see that they hold the coins and it keeps things honest as long as the holder of the escrow values their reputation.

With that said, there is almost no way to know who a random wallet address belongs to.  i can create a new one tomorrow and it would have not history.  On the other hand, if I purchase a pizza and send bitcoin to a wallet I would know the wallet address and the identity of the person.  Once they move it I could still track where it goes- but there is almost no way that I would know if it went to their supplier, and employee or to purchase another service.

Finally, there are "laundering" services.  Basically, you submit your coins to the service.  They "mix" them with hundreds of others and distribute them to the end source.  Bits and pieces of each coin end up mixed with the others and it creates a kind of anonymizer although the information is completely public and available.

That is pretty much how the silk road worked.  I would create a wallet, buy bitcoins for cash, forward them to the dealer along with my address and they would send me the drugs, guns, fake passport or what have you.  I trust the dealer not to release my name (and there was at least one case of somebody who threatened to do just that.)  The owner of the silk road supposedly "solicited a murder-for-hire" of a Canadian Silk Road user nicknamed FriendlyChemist who had tried to extort money by threatening to release the identities of thousands of the site's users.

It goes on and on and gets quite interesting.  The short answer to your question is that the record of where coins came from, reside and are sent is completely public.  Trying to track down the person behind those addresses is very difficult.  The FBI would have had the wallet addresses of the owner of the silk road and it took them years to identify him.

I hope at least most of that made sense.  It is late... If you want clarification on something ask and I will try to respond when I am more awake.

Thanks for the detailed reply. I still don't quite understand the whole "wallet" vs the "bitcoin" itself and why the "coin" needs to have a transactional history. Somehow I would think this, at least eventually, would lead to tracking or monitoring its movement. But you say that it can be "anonymized" by some service (then why have the internal transactional tracking system in place in the first place if it can be modified.) I would rather it be like cash or bearer bonds. Whoever has them can use them and who ever receives them can use them but you can't tell (unless you have testimony or film or tracking the serial numbers) who is using them for what.

[Gd5150]

Forget digital pyramids....precious metals are where its at!
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[zeebo]

Forget digital pyramids....precious metals are where its at!

How much can I get for my old tinfoil hats?

[wr250]

How much can I get for my old tinfoil hats?

aluminum is probably around $1/lb at the salvage yard now.

[zeebo]

aluminum is probably around $1/lb at the salvage yard now.

hmm maybe I'll hang onto them, sell 'em in front of wal-mart during the next solar flare / nsa news story.

[WOTR]

A couple more quick replies now...

Probably not.  My guess is they knew who he was almost immediately and took years building a case against him that would stick.

As late as 7 months before they shut the silk road down they still did not know who he was.  Prosecuters in Maryland had sealed an indictment against "John Doe." Until he could be identified and arrested.  They did not know who he was at that point...
"The unsealed indictment reveals that while federal prosecutors did not know Mr. Ulbricht’s identity, they did know the name of the Silk Road employee they say he wanted dead â€" Curtis Clark Green, who reached a plea bargain with Maryland prosecutors in September and is cooperating with the investigation. In the court filing, Mr. Curtis, who apparently did not know the identity of his boss, was identified by his initials “CCG” and described as a resident of Spanish Fork, Utah."
From http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2014/03/21/silk-road-case-began-with-hunt-for-a-john-doe/

You can believe they knew who he was... but it seems unlikely.  They also could not track the site (it was on the darknet) for quite sometime.  There is speculation based on the court documents that they hacked the Captcha authentication and found the server in Iceland.  Right now they are questioning the legality of hacking and privacy in reference to how the FBI got their lead.  Further reading on that aspect here http://www.wired.com/2014/08/feds-silk-road-investigation-violated-privacy-law-sites-alleged-creator-tells-court/

Overall, it is interesting to follow.  Hacking, drugs, hits, the FBI, the NSA, TOR, bitcoin and questions of privacy.

[WOTR]

Thanks for the detailed reply. I still don't quite understand the whole "wallet" vs the "bitcoin" itself and why the "coin" needs to have a transactional history. Somehow I would think this, at least eventually, would lead to tracking or monitoring its movement. But you say that it can be "anonymized" by some service (then why have the internal transactional tracking system in place in the first place if it can be modified.) I would rather it be like cash or bearer bonds. Whoever has them can use them and who ever receives them can use them but you can't tell (unless you have testimony or film or tracking the serial numbers) who is using them for what.

To start with, Bitcoin was not necessarily seen as a way to buy drugs.  It was supposed to be open for all to see and a method for people to pay for something.  The white paper is only 8 pages long and goes into some explanation on most questions.  If you are inclined, it can be found here.
https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf

The main idea of having the blockchain (and where coins reside) public is transparency.  Having everything public provides trust.  I will quote from the White paper and that should help clarify things. 

Abstract. A purely peer-to-peer version of electronic cash would allow online
payments to be sent directly from one party to another without going through a
financial institution. Digital signatures provide part of the solution, but the main
benefits are lost if a trusted third party is still required to prevent double-spending.
We propose a solution to the double-spending problem using a peer-to-peer network.
The network timestamps transactions by hashing them into an ongoing chain of
hash-based proof-of-work, forming a record that cannot be changed without redoing
the proof-of-work.

Basically, it is public because otherwise there would be no way to confirm that you had not already sent the coin to somebody else.  I can trust that the payment is good because it is public and there is a timestamp.

Regarding the question of privacy in a public environment (the comparison to a stock exchange is an excellent explanation.)
The traditional banking model achieves a level of privacy by limiting access to information to the parties involved and the trusted third party. The necessity to announce all transactions publicly precludes this method, but privacy can still be maintained by breaking the flow of information in another place: by keeping public keys anonymous. The public can see that someone is sending an amount to someone else, but without information linking the transaction to anyone. This is similar to the level of information released by stock exchanges, where the time and size of individual trades, the "tape", is made public, but without telling who the parties were.

The question of a wallet is simply that there needs to be a place for them to reside.  Being as they are not really physical there needs to be an electronic equivalent of a wallet to hold them.


I hope that made sense as well.  In short, the blockchain is public because otherwise you would be unable to trust it.  The information that is public is not personally identifying.  The thing that the silk road pretty much proved is that a bitcoin is like a bearer bond... You would have no idea if I bought a gram of cocaine or a pizza even if you knew which wallet were mine...

[Camazotz Automat]

As I have predicted; U.S. federal trade commission watchdogs approve trading Bitcoin
http://online.wsj.com/articles/teraexchange-launches-bitcoin-derivatives-exchange-1410543989

This news was just posted online only 30 minutes ago. I can hear the foreheads dropping onto the desks as I type this with groans of, "I should of listed to that bitch." 

Well you should of. Instead you chose to the predictable path of negativity and you got exactly what you deserved... nothing. While 99.9% of the membership of Bellgab dismissed cryptocurrencies and one member even declaring that this was the year it would jump the shark (still laughing at that one), what you missed out on was the crime of the decade. While everyone thought that all the problems with exchanges over seas and with the fbi silk road busts that the value of bitcoin would keep falling to zero, you missed out on the incredible buying opportunity that revealed itself right in front of your eyes.

As I yelled and screamed for everyone to wake the fuck up you were just too dumb to listen and recognize the greatest financial opportunity since the dot com craze of the 90's. So who was listening? Post after post I link articles of investors and financial groups investing billions of dollars into the framework and structure but the regular old man's brigade kept drinking and dribbling their regular bullshit. There was only ONE man who stepped up and said maybe she knows what she is talking about.

Don't worry about it guys. There will be another outstanding and even more financially fluid opportunity coming around in about 30 years. So you'll all have the chance to repeat your brilliance and do the exact same thing. At that time I'll be retiring off of the profits from the investments I have made into the capital management companies (some of which I listed in this thread) that have been major players.

So how many of you even own any bit coins?  Oh well then. Keep drinking and smoking weed. The aliens will be landing soon 

Hey, Lady Gaga's aunt, I mean Kate. Long time no see.

Nice to see you arrive with all guns blazing. It keeps us on our toes.

It also results in some interesting, informative, and amusing posts from other members. You never know where the subject will turn, due to the nature of the technology being discussed.

Hope you're doing well, you bit(ch)coin, you. 

[attachimg=1]

[Gd5150]

[attachimg=1]

Hey, Lady Gaga's aunt, I mean Kate. Long time no see.

Nice to see you arrive with all guns blazing. It keeps us on our toes.

It also results in some interesting, informative, and amusing posts from other members. You never know where the subject will turn, due to the nature of the technology being discussed.

Hope you're doing well, you bit(ch)coin, you. 

[attachimg=1]

People had to take his form of payment. Otherwise he'd get angry, and you wouldn't like he when he gets angry.

[Camazotz Automat]

[attachimg=1]
People had to take his form of payment. Otherwise he'd get angry, and you wouldn't like he when he gets angry.

Yes! Well done. Where cryptocurrency did a Kafka-beetle-boogie-switcheroo and turned into the real green stuff.

The above subliminally suggested by the color of the letters used under BB's pic. I call it "illuminati green" (cough conspiracy color cough cough.)

[GeorgieForPresident2216]

Right.  The reason I'm interested in bitcoin is not because of its lack of traceability, so that's probably why I don't know much about that side of it.  I like it because it makes internet transactions simple and global.   If you're purchasing from an international site, or if you're operation an international site and employing a bunch of people from all over, then it's a hassle converting currencies, having to deal with different third party payment services, having to load up different funding options, etc. 

As a more concrete example, I often play games where they just use their own currency instead of having to define everything in terms of US dollars, and Canadian dollars, and British pounds, and Euros, and everything else.  But it's a hassle for me.  I've set up a Paypal account but they don't accept Paypal.  So now I have to fund another payment provider and pay all those transaction fees.  Then I have to figure out how much of their currency my Canadian dollars will  buy.  Then I have to convert to their currency.  And now I have my money in their system, in their currency and I haven't bought anything yet -- but I can't get it back.  Everything would be so much simpler with a global online currency.  Everyone has a bitcoin wallet.  Everyone pays directly for the services they want.  Anyone who works over the internet gets paid in bitcoins.

I believe Dr. Michio Kaku would call that a type one currency.

[area51drone]

A couple more quick replies now...As late as 7 months before they shut the silk road down they still did not know who he was.  Prosecuters in Maryland had sealed an indictment against "John Doe." Until he could be identified and arrested.  They did not know who he was at that point...

Just because they claim that doesn't mean they didn't know.  If they were doing illegal things (like they do all the time recording every phone call we make), then I think they knew and just didn't let the prosecutor know until they had some real way to do it without breaking some law.  But I could be wrong, obviously all we can go by is the documents you posted, and so - whatever, it is interesting, as you say.

[WOTR]

Just because they claim that doesn't mean they didn't know.  If they were doing illegal things (like they do all the time recording every phone call we make), then I think they knew and just didn't let the prosecutor know until they had some real way to do it without breaking some law.  But I could be wrong, obviously all we can go by is the documents you posted, and so - whatever, it is interesting, as you say.

I am usually on your side (they do collect everything.)  However, I believe that disclosure in court cases makes this a little less likely.  Also, while the collect everything I do not think they are yet at the point where everything is automated.  To track somebody through TOR would take more effort than hacking the site (as it appears they ended up doing.) 

As you say, there is really no way to know at this point.  It could be that they were able to track what they needed.  I guess I just think of Snowden and I realize that there are still some loopholes (albeit that they are trying desperately to plug them...)

[area51drone]

I guess I just think of Snowden and I realize that there are still some loopholes (albeit that they are trying desperately to plug them...)

Well, considering Snowden knew at least some of their capabilities, it's no surprise he was able to get around them.  I don't think the owner of Silk Road had that kind of knowledge, and of course this all happened before the Snowden revelations so it's very likely there was a slip up somewhere.    All it would have taken is mining search data for someone who searched the regular web for both items/info on silk road and bitcoins.  The venn diagram of those two topics must have included very few IP's near the birth of the Silk Road in the history record.

[WOTR]

As I have predicted; U.S. federal trade commission watchdogs approve trading Bitcoin

This news was just posted online only 30 minutes ago. I can hear the foreheads dropping onto the desks as I type this with groans of, "I should of listed to that bitch." 

Because I am a bit of a bastard, I will mention that the markets appear to be agreeing with my position that this is not necessarily a good thing.  September 12th (when the post was made) Bitcoin: $480USD.  Bitcoin today: $405.

Now, I do believe it has room to rebound.  I would not call it dead.  But I would say that the markets did not celebrate in the manner that you may have expected...

[GeorgieForPresident2216]

Paypal announced new small move towards using Bitcoin.  Bitcoin has jumped $50 in the past hour or so.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/ryanmac/2014/09/23/paypal-takes-small-step-toward-bitcoin-partners-with-cryptocurrency-processors/

markets.blockchain.info

[albrecht]

Paypal announced new small move towards using Bitcoin.  Bitcoin has jumped $50 in the past hour or so.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/ryanmac/2014/09/23/paypal-takes-small-step-toward-bitcoin-partners-with-cryptocurrency-processors/

markets.blockchain.info

Interesting how they handle. I had a bad experience with PayPal years ago and had account cancelled. Accused of trying to use it for purposes not intended. Not necessarily illegal, mind you, but I tried to use it as a method (instead of banks or CC or wires that charge fees) to process funds between different currencies- and not for actually purchasing product. More of a test, for me, when it first came out, just trying to find cheaper and quicker way. And wasn't for speculative purposes either. No arbitrage or trading scheme. At the time they wrote me something to the effect (I forget exact wording) that "we are not a bank" and "not a clearing house for currency exchange or money transfers."

[WOTR]

Paypal announced new small move towards using Bitcoin.  Bitcoin has jumped $50 in the past hour or so.

I believe bitcoin was at $480 when Kate posted that we would all regret not getting in on the action.  It dropped to $405 (and yes, had a spike when paypal made an announcement.)  Now reality has sunk in and we are down at $330 today.  I am not an investment guru (if I were, I would have sold my bitcoin at the peak of $900.  I also would not be holding litecoin (I do not honestly know that litecoin will find a bottom.)

With that said, I do know that very few probably have any regrets about not getting into bitcoin when it has now dropped 30% since that post.

The funny thing is that I am actually a crypto supporter.  I believe that there is a place for it, and I can see the value in it.

The problem with bitcoin as it stands is that it is becoming an industrialized process.  Massive farms were set up when bitcoin hit $900.  The hardware that is being developed is often now rack mounted.  The smaller "consumer" miners that can run in a house will never pay for themselves and most will never mine so much as a single bitcoin before they are obsolete (power costs more to run them than they return.)

Also, when you get a company like paypal accepting coins many people see it as a positive- I see it as a negative.  Paypal has no use for coins- they are completely useless as they cannot pay their real expenses (power, computers, security, wages) in bitcoin.  They will have to sell them into the market.

Now you have industrial farms that have to pay for power and are selling coins into a saturated market and large corporations selling them into the market as well.  You no longer have people mining these for themselves and as such, the base of users is shrinking.  Why would I purchase a bitcoin from an industrial farm so that I can buy a product using paypal?  (Who will then have to sell the same coin back to the market.)

Anyhow, I am a little worried that the golden age of bitcoin may be behind us (pun intended.)  There was a time when the main idea is that everybody could mine it using their graphics cards and everybody could take part.  Now you have to purchase thousands in hardware that will never give you a return on your investment so that you can pay an increased power bill in order to participate in an experiment with a shrinking user base.

The only chance for a reversal is if bitcoin starts being used for the strengths it brings rather than used to purchase a song using paypal...

[GeorgieForPresident2216]

It's tenuous at best.  As someone who also sees potential for cryptocurrency, I guess the question becomes whether Bitcoin has picked up enough momentum to hold on and not just be a fad or failed first attempt.  It's certainly not perfect, but neither was VHS.  As with most things, marketing and the committed investment of a few key players is what will carry the day.

[Gd5150]

The problem with Bitcoin is its a pyramid scheme. At best you may make a few bucks. At worst you'll lose it all. And there is no reason to use it vs real currency.

[zeebo]

The problem with Bitcoin is its a pyramid scheme. At best you may make a few bucks. At worst you'll lose it all. And there is no reason to use it vs real currency.

Actually I see some benefits to it theoretically, e.g. that it's anonymous and efficient, but my big worry is that governments will crack down on it.  I'm thinking they haven't yet since they're hoping it'll collapse on it's own, which it might, but if it doesn't, then they'll step in.  Either way, you may lose your shirt.

[area51drone]

I believe bitcoin was at $480 when Kate posted that we would all regret not getting in on the action.  It dropped to $405 (and yes, had a spike when paypal made an announcement.)  Now reality has sunk in and we are down at $330 today.

Yet, probably, she still wants to rub our noses in it. 

[GeorgieForPresident2216]

Sometimes holding on to Bitcoin takes nerves of steel or even of a nickel superalloy.

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*trend line mine, approximated visually.

[area51drone]

I think the real question is, how did someone "buy" the first bitcoin?  What gave it value to ANYONE  in the first place?

[zeebo]

Bitcoin price dropped below $200.  Glad I couldn't figure out how to buy one.

[WOTR]

Bitcoin price dropped below $200.  Glad I couldn't figure out how to buy one.

I don't think that Kate has been back to gloat for awhile now... 


I hope that it rebounds a little and stabalizes.  It was severely overvalued at it's peak... But it is now low enough that I am starting to wonder who is actually still mining them.  Overall, it is still interesting to watch.