Random Political Thoughts

[Yorkshire pud]

Yes, but the USA taught GB about freedom.

Sure; we don't have the patriot act to give us the pointer of what real freedom is.. And the automatic assumption that anyone going through an airport is a criminal only came about because of Bush's illegal wars; and the ludicrous situation where a child has accidentally been put on a no fly list, but it can't be removed! So effectively possibly fucking up the rest of his life, yep...that freedom is infectious. 

[Juan]

I typed this out and then it crashed! I'll try again.

It reads a bit like 'What have the Romans ever given us' from Life of Brian; But for all the stuff GB have fucked up, I give you (in no particular order),
Steam power, railways, discovery of electricity, discovery of vast amounts of science across all disciplines, the jet engine, pneumatic tyre, television, telephone, gas light, stainless steel, blast furnace, the tap (faucet), Aircraft carrier...and lots of things that the planet takes for granted.

Don't for get the battle tank.

[Marc.Knight]

Sure; we don't have the patriot act to give us the pointer of what real freedom is.. And the automatic assumption that anyone going through an airport is a criminal only came about because of Bush's illegal wars; and the ludicrous situation where a child has accidentally been put on a no fly list, but it can't be removed! So effectively possibly fucking up the rest of his life, yep...that freedom is infectious. 

You didn't have a bunch of planes falling out of the sky and killing people on a particular day either.  Yes, some nutballs went too far with legislation and changed too many things out of fear and opportunism.  But, like GB does, we're learning from our mistakes and rebuilding. 

[Yorkshire pud]

Don't for get the battle tank.

Sure, but I think sticking a helicopter turbine in a tank was inspired.

[Ben Shockley]

Pud, as the Monty Python guys said:
RUN AWAY!!
Flee before the wisdom of "Philosopher."   He has been a user since 2009.  He has returned.  None can stand before his might.   He has deigned to come into another room and tell me, in essence, to shut up and sit down.
You had better do that too!!!

Or get hit by the shrapnel from the ensuing battle......

[Yorkshire pud]

You didn't have a bunch of planes falling out of the sky and killing people on a particular day either.  Yes, some nutballs went too far with legislation and changed too many things out of fear and opportunism.  But, like GB does, we're learning from our mistakes and rebuilding.

I'll be blunt;

I don't need any lectures about terrorism from you. The PIRA in Ireland used to nail gun peoples tongues to the roof of their mouth for kicks, they used to staple 'confessions' to their eyeballs. Shoot 14 and 15 year old kids in the back of the knee to cripple them-kneecapping. They used to blow up shopping centres full of civilians to pass the time, they used to drag British soldiers out of cars and castrate them in the street and not allow an ambulance near in case they lived. They used to plant bombs under cars knowing it could take out a school or a bus queue..they did all this and far more aided and abetted by US politicians across the spectrum who held fund raising dinners for the 'brave' murdering bastards.

The PIRA have been responsible for more deaths and injuries and long term disabilities than happened on 9/11, or what ETA, Bader Meinhoff and Carlos the Jackell did, combined. Until 9/11 most of the US couldn't spell terrorism, let alone have an idea what it was.

So yeah, I do get pissed when it's suggested it's a new thing.

[Marc.Knight]

I'll be blunt;

I don't need any lectures about terrorism from you. The PIRA in Ireland used to nail gun peoples tongues to the roof of their mouth for kicks, they used to staple 'confessions' to their eyeballs. Shoot 14 and 15 year old kids in the back of the knee to cripple them-kneecapping. They used to blow up shopping centres full of civilians to pass the time, they used to drag British soldiers out of cars and castrate them in the street and not allow an ambulance near in case they lived. They used to plant bombs under cars knowing it could take out a school or a bus queue..they did all this and far more aided and abetted by US politicians across the spectrum who held fund raising dinners for the 'brave' murdering bastards.

The PIRA have been responsible for more deaths and injuries and long term disabilities than happened on 9/11, or what ETA, Bader Meinhoff and Carlos the Jackell did, combined. Until 9/11 most of the US couldn't spell terrorism, let alone have an idea what it was.

So yeah, I do get pissed when it's suggested it's a new thing.

...and you tend to look to history only when expedient.  If you interpret honest debate as a "lecture" then may you find someone interested in merely reading your posts rather than responding. 

[Yorkshire pud]

...and you tend to look to history only when expedient.  If you interpret honest debate as a "lecture" then may you find someone interested in merely reading your posts rather than responding.

Expedient? So I mention the PIRA to gainsay 9/11? No, I was responding to your 'You didn't have a bunch of planes falling out of the sky and killing people on a particular day either.' comment. Planes falling out is more spectacular, and still as terrible, but the PIRA weren't playing at it, they had years of practice, and a practice that affected many people throughout the UK.

[Ben Shockley]

// psst... Pud, sweetie: I doubt if most idiots around here know what "gainsay" means!

[NowhereInTime]

Here's a question for all you PhD's...

What the fuck was Palestine before it was Palestine?

The Jewish people have been living on that land since the beginning of written history - since before the Babylonian exile!!!! They returned to the land of Judah after Cyrus the Great freed them from Babylonian imprisonment, and they built their SECOND Temple in Jerusalem - +/- 500 years before Jesus of Nazareth was born.

The religion of death, rape, sodomy, incest, pedophilia, and destruction (Islam) did not exist until 800-years AFTER Jesus of Nazareth was crucified.

Fuck the Palestinians - they are the dirt of the Middle East that no Arab country wants anything to do with, and they had that status LONG before the UN re-established the land of Israel.

If the people of the world weren't such idiot dick-sucking anally-obsessed ASSHOLES, and would start investigating history for themselves, they wouldn't be so easy to manipulate like faggity puppets on a string that overreact emotionally to every issue that is packaged for them by ABC, CBS, NBC, CNN, MSLSD, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc... ad infinitum.

Arafat and Sharpton are the same bags of shit that would never exist but for crying liberals that are Arafat and Sharpton's tools.

Oh, yeah, Sardondi.  Protect this.

[Ben Shockley]

Oh, yeah, Sardondi.  Protect this.

Oh, he is so supra ~~ above all us voting pawns... he was so IN IT, you know!!
at the moment  listening to Frank Zappa's "Ship Arriving Too Late To Save A Drowning Witch"

[NowhereInTime]

There is a sea change coming in the Muslim world / Middle East.  Here are a few of the recent highlights

Obama dissing Israel (and all our allies) from day 1
The Arab Spring in Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, Egypt, Syria
The suppression of would be Arab Spring-ers in places like Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, and the Emirites
The hijacking of the Arab Spring by terror organizations, especially in Libya, Egypt, and Syria
Obama sitting idly by until the Moslem Brotherhood (Libya, Egypt) and al-Qaeda (Syria) hijacked the Arab Spring, then jumping in to support the terrorists
Obama's mess about attacking, then not attacking, Syria on behalf of al-Qaeda
Obama cutting military aid to the Egyptian army.  At a time when they are the ones fighting terror groups in the Sinai
Saudi Arabia rejecting a seat to take their turn on the UN Security Council in order to highlight their disappointment with Obama
The Saudi's turning to Russia and China for weapons after years of buying ours, and the near break in relations with the US
Obama and one time presidential candidate (!) John Kerry rolling over for Iran on the nuclear weapons issue a few days ago
Turkey and Egypt recalling their ambassadors from each other and nearly severing relations yesterday

And now Jordan, Saudi Arabia (and probably places like Kuwait, Qatar, Bahrain, Oman, and the UAE)  tacitly working together with Israel to decide what they are going to do about Iran's nukes

If Iran gets the bomb, Saudi and Egypt will want it too.



Iran is Shia and Persian.  Nearly everyone (but not all) to the west of them is Arab and Sunni.  There is a long history of aggression from the Persians towards the Arabs.  The Sunni's and Shi'ites hate each other - when you hear about a car bomb or a massacre in the Moslem world, that's usually what it was about.

Israel and the Arabs are terrified that Iran is going to get nukes.  It is clear to them Obama is useless in working against it.  The moderate Arabs and Israel have worked together and had mutual interests in the past - these relationships are going to be more open now.

Pakistan got the bomb when the incompetent Jimmy Carter was in office.  North Korea bamboozled the very stupid Madeleine Albright and the Clinton Administration, cutting a deal in 1994 that gave them food and assistance in exchange for a promise to stop their nuke program.  Given a reprieve, they broke their promises and soon had nukes.  Now with Obama, a combination of the incompetence of Carter and the stupidity of Albright, Iran is going to do the same as North Korea and get the bomb while we unfreeze their assets and remove trade restrictions. 


It's crucial we have a leader in the White House right now.  Someone smart and competent.  Someone working in the best interests of peace and the United States.  We have none of that right now.

Right. Because Reagan did so well keeping North Korea nuke free and cleaned up Carter's "mess" in Pakistan.
Oh, he didn't do that?
And he reached across the table to the outstretched hand of Mikhail Gorbachev when Mike offered to end nuclear testing and reduce stockpiles. 
Wouldn't give up Star Wars?  Well, at least we're safer now...
Wait, Star Wars still doesn't work?

The President's initiative with Iran is brilliant, but you just can't see it.  A triumvirate of muslim powers: Turkey, Saudi Arabia, and Iran, all being dragged (ever so slowly so its organic) into the western world.  In two generations we will have reduced the security threat to almost nil.  Takes too long?  Should've started 30 years ago when Reagan's only initiative with Iran was to sell them weapons under the table to finance his hooligans in Nicaragua and El Salvador.

[thexfile]

“If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.” ~ Sun Tzu

If your serious about politics read Sun Tzu 'The Art of War'.

[Ben Shockley]

--bite it, Marie ---
boog boog em Danno

[NowhereInTime]

“If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.” ~ Sun Tzu

If your serious about politics read Sun Tzu 'The Art of War'.

Not to be a dick, but I can about guaran-damn-tee everyone on this board has read Sun Tzu, Machiavelli, Beschloss, Kearns-Goodwin and any other philosopher or historian in political history.  Paper Boy is infatuated with Karl Marx and I think Twink Karl is an Adam Smith devotee.
Nietzche is Pietzche.

[West of the Rockies]

Glad to see you back, Nowhere....  I hope you're right about those countries being led to modernity.  It's been a long damn time in coming. 

[PB the Deplorable]

The Administration's collective ignorance of basic economics runs deep.  There is a domino effect to all of this... for example, because of the multi-million dollar increase in health insurance coverage the company's board is now motivated to end our pension program and cut back on 401k contributions.  Even if these represent reactions rather than studied responses to Obamacare costs, the Administration fails to understand the power and precedence of "Perception" and "Uncertainty" in economics.  They've paid for insurance companies' silence with promises including a semi-monopolistic system guaranteeing them unlimited billions of dollars while the little guy gets squashed by one of the worst examples of unbridled socialist programs ever instituted in this country. 

In the end I think we'll see fewer people covered by insurance, more people with substandard insurance, a fat and happy insurance industry, and a federal government sucking in billions of dollars in fines from poor people.  Sounds great.

It's not collective 'ignorance', it's collective hatred of the country and intended destructiveness. 

If they truly just wanted health insurance for those who didn't have any, they would have addressed that, and not done their best to wreck all the rest of it.  If they thought this was all such a great idea they wouldn't have issued waivers for their cronies.

The waivers they issued to Big Labor were precisely for the 40% 'Cadillac' Tax - Obama's friends down at Big Union HQ didn't want to pay it.   The crony connected unions are no longer subject to it, but everyone else is.


So it looks like over 100 million are going to lose their health care insurance because it didn't measure up to Nancy Pelosi's arbitrary requirements.  We don't know yet how many people will be subject to a 40% excise tax because it exceeded those same arbitrary requirements.

They shouldn't even have gotten involved with policies people already have, let alone be doing this horseshit.  If we still have a country left after another year of Obama, look for the D's to lose big next November.

[PB the Deplorable]

Right. Because Reagan did so well keeping North Korea nuke free and cleaned up Carter's "mess" in Pakistan.
Oh, he didn't do that?
And he reached across the table to the outstretched hand of Mikhail Gorbachev when Mike offered to end nuclear testing and reduce stockpiles. 
Wouldn't give up Star Wars?  Well, at least we're safer now...
Wait, Star Wars still doesn't work?

The President's initiative with Iran is brilliant, but you just can't see it.  A triumvirate of muslim powers: Turkey, Saudi Arabia, and Iran, all being dragged (ever so slowly so its organic) into the western world.  In two generations we will have reduced the security threat to almost nil.  Takes too long?  Should've started 30 years ago when Reagan's only initiative with Iran was to sell them weapons under the table to finance his hooligans in Nicaragua and El Salvador.

That's a lot of poor information. 

Once Pakistan had nukes (in the 70s), it was a little late for Reagan to come into office and undo it.  Even with a full invasion (which would have been stupid), they would be moved and hidden away.  What Reagan did do was forge close ties with Pakistan and help stabilize the regime.  Pakistan's President at the time (late 70s to late 80s) was General Zia-al Haq.  He was instrumental in the eventual defeat of the USSR in Afghanistan by coordinating the various supplies and war material from the allies to the Mujahedeen.   He also improved ties with China and with the US.  He managed the difficult relations Pakistan has with India well.  Carter was useless in all this, Reagan played a strong positive role. Even now, if there is a coup by a terror group, the US military has an agreement to scoop up Pakistan's nukes and keep them in safe hands.  That wasn't Carters doing, it was Reagan's.

North Korea's nukes?  North Korea didn't have them until after the agreement signed by Maddy Albright (with a big assist from former President Carter) and Bill Clinton in 1994.  That was 6 years after Reagan left office, and it took them awhile after that to finally develop them.  Are you really blaming Reagan?

There are a lot of places in the world the US has little or no influence.  We can't just bang our fist on the table and make things happen.  What we can do it have a process and develop strategies and tactics - carrots and sticks, to encourage nations to come to agreements we can all live with.  This usually involves a coalition of interested nations, neighbors and sponsors of the nation in question.  Tactics include freezing assets, cutting off trade, isolating them in bodies such as the World Bank and UN.  In exchange for certain behavior, the coalition can offer food, medicine, trade, summit meetings, etc.

Timing has a lot to do with how and when to do things.  When North Korea has an especially bad winter and desperately needs donations of medicine, supplies, food, and oil, that is the time to get a strong agreement.  Albright didn't do that.  She got a deal much like the one Obama and Kerry just got with Iran.   One that gave them everything they wanted in exchange for promises to halt the nuke program that lacked inspections and was unverifiable.  It gave the North Koreans the breathing room they needed to complete enrichment and finalize the development of nuclear warheads.  And you think it's Reagans fault?  It's Bill Clintons fault.  He's the on that had the opportunity to stop them in 1994.

As for Iran, this embargo was working well.  After all these years of being squeezed, they were finally at the point they would have had to offer real concessions or their economy would simply implode.  And Obama once again came to the rescue of Islamic Terror and capitulated to Iran.  He unfroze their assets, scaled down the embargo, and got nothing in return.  He didn't even get the promise Clinton got from the North Koreans to stop enrichment - Obama agreed to allow the Iranians to continue enrichment while we 'monitor' it.


I'm not going to waste time with Star Wars and Gorbachev and his offer - you don't really care and aren't interested in reality anyway.   I will say 'Star Wars' was the beginning of the end of the Soviet Empire.  Reagan was responsible for the collapse of the Soviet Union and the end of the Cold War, and it began with our new expensive nuclear technology, Gorbachev knew they couldn't keep up and that it was over.  Thankfully, he declined to go out in a blaze of glory.  You remember all that - how anyone from the Warsaw Pact could travel to other Warsaw Pact countries, and then Hungary opened the border with Austria as people flooded into the West?  Lech Walesa rallying the Poles?  The tearing down of the Berlin Wall?  And you want to bitch about Star Wars?  Dang dude.  If you want to 'blame' Reagan for something, blame him for the collapse of your heroes in Moscow.

...  The President's initiative with Iran is brilliant, but you just can't see it.  A triumvirate of muslim powers: Turkey, Saudi Arabia, and Iran, all being dragged (ever so slowly so its organic) into the western world...

Brilliant?  I'd really like to hear your spin on that.  I think he is intentionally allowing Iran to develop nukes by taking the pressure off and agreeing to allow them to move forward. I'd say it's closer to treason than to brilliance.

Iran.  How is developing the bomb going to bring Iran into the Western World?  This is a country held captive by the Ayatollahs.  A regime straight out of the 7th Century.  The people of Iran deserve different.  If they could throw off this regime, they would move into the western world very quickly.  Not only did Obama ignore them when they took to the streets to rally against the regime in 2010, but he is propping up the regime now.

Turkey.  Turkey has little or nothing to do with this.  They are neither Arab or Persian.  They are a NATO member and bravely held the southern flank of NATO against the Soviets for decades.  For years they were already de facto part of the Western World.  Sadly, the government has been slipping backward and become less secular and more Islamic every day.  To the point they have nearly severed ties with Egypt due to the ouster of the Moslem Brotherhood.  They began slipping when they were not treated as European by being accepted into the EU.  They desperately wanted to join, and spent years waiting.  They basically finally said 'fuck it' and turned eastward.  Can't really blame Bush or Obama for that, it will have to play out.  They now see themselves as the inheritor of a new caliphate finally replacing the old Ottoman Empire, and their ambitions could turn dangerous.  Allowing Iran to have a nuke does not help, just the opposite.

Saudi Arabia. You may finally be on to something.  This agreement with Iran has scared the shit out of Israel, the Saudis, and the smaller Arab states like Jordan.  They are going to fight it.  This may force them to publicly form an alliance, which would scramble the current (anti-Israeli) Middle East alliances.  Too bad it would happen in the middle of an arms race and war against Iran.

[Lunger]

Right. Because Reagan did so well keeping North Korea nuke free and cleaned up Carter's "mess" in Pakistan.
Oh, he didn't do that?
And he reached across the table to the outstretched hand of Mikhail Gorbachev when Mike offered to end nuclear testing and reduce stockpiles. 
Wouldn't give up Star Wars?  Well, at least we're safer now...
Wait, Star Wars still doesn't work?

The President's initiative with Iran is brilliant, but you just can't see it.  A triumvirate of muslim powers: Turkey, Saudi Arabia, and Iran, all being dragged (ever so slowly so its organic) into the western world.  In two generations we will have reduced the security threat to almost nil.  Takes too long?  Should've started 30 years ago when Reagan's only initiative with Iran was to sell them weapons under the table to finance his hooligans in Nicaragua and El Salvador.

Reagan didn't really need to do much of anything because the North Koreans were nowhere near achieving the ability to enrich uranium.  That didn't happen until the Clinton Administration handed them the know-how on a silver platter.  Star Wars worked as planned - it broke the back of the Soviets.

As far as Obama's brilliance.  Well, he and his administration are as dim-witted as you seem to be.  Obama's particular genius is being a pathological liar, and as usual, he is lying about the particulars of this brilliant Iranian initiative.

[Yorkshire pud]

// psst... Pud, sweetie: I doubt if most idiots around here know what "gainsay" means!

I'm chastened now.... I only used it cos it was used in a Monty Python sketch...No idea what it means myself. 

[Marc.Knight]

Reagan didn't really need to do much of anything because the North Koreans were nowhere near achieving the ability to enrich uranium.  That didn't happen until the Clinton Administration handed them the know-how on a silver platter.  Star Wars worked as planned - it broke the back of the Soviets.

As far as Obama's brilliance.  Well, he and his administration are as dim-witted as you seem to be.  Obama's particular genius is being a pathological liar, and as usual, he is lying about the particulars of this brilliant Iranian initiative.

We need an infusion of Reagan's political philosophy.  It would be like holy water sprayed on a vampire for most Democrats and Republicans today.  Why am I seeing so much vitriol in this forum?  

[West of the Rockies]

We need an infusion of Reagan's political philosophy.  It would be like holy water sprayed on a vampire for most Democrats and Republicans today.  Why am I seeing so much vitriol in this forum?

Philospher, this ain't nothin' compared to how it gets here.

[Marc.Knight]

Philospher, this ain't nothin' compared to how it gets here.

I know.  But, it is not needed to get one's point across. 

[Yorkshire pud]

I know.  But, it is not needed to get one's point across.

Funny that; because I've several times had to refute that I'm not sympathetic to (insert any dictator throughout the ages, as far back as Roman times). But no matter how many times that I refute I'm not in fact in favour of a multitude of heinous sympathies that don't 'fit' in a wholesome and Utopian model of perfection, or point out that the UK hasn't now or ever had a communist/Marxist society or that liberal and Marxist are not the same thing, I still find I field the very thing you say isn't needed.

[Marc.Knight]

Funny that; because I've several times had to refute that I'm not sympathetic to (insert any dictator throughout the ages, as far back as Roman times). But no matter how many times that I refute I'm not in fact in favour of a multitude of heinous sympathies that don't 'fit' in a wholesome and Utopian model of perfection, or point out that the UK hasn't now or ever had a communist/Marxist society or that liberal and Marxist are not the same thing, I still find I field the very thing you say isn't needed.

It is a matter of conjecture for me to suggest why forum contributors resort to anonymous personal attacks in the course of simply debating an issue.  The very act of trying to debase someone personally removes credibility from their point of view or argument.  It is adolescent behavior that some adults find comfort in returning to within the protective bounds of anonymity.  I'm not smart enough to figure out why.  But, I don't have a problem gently pointing it out as foolishness.

[Quick Karl]

I know.  But, it is not needed to get one's point across.

Unless a participant's political philosophies are based on the Elephant in the room: vindictiveness and a compulsion to take money and property from people that have even the slightest real or imagined greater net-worth and comfort, and/or that embrace Constitution based political philosophies, and/or that embrace Judeo-Christian based moral philosophies; then it is OK to call those people names...

[Marc.Knight]

It is never ok when applied to anyone. 

[Yorkshire pud]

Unless a participant's political philosophies are based on the Elephant in the room: vindictiveness and a compulsion to take money and property from people that have even the slightest real or imagined greater net-worth and comfort, and/or that embrace Constitution based political philosophies, and/or that embrace Judeo-Christian based moral philosophies; then it is OK to call those people names...

I don't embrace constitution based political principles or christian moral philosophies...what does that make me? And I do think money and wealth should be taken back from those who have plundered countries or are rigging the monetary/ stock/ property/ commodities, markets to rape countries, their GDP and their societies..Hedge fund managers, and asset strippers anyone? 

[West of the Rockies]

True enough, Yorkshire... Might is not always right.  There are, of course, takers -- people who regard their fellow human beings as either simply teats, or assets, units of potential work, a necessary evil in the name of making a profit....

I am not fond of institutional welfare (though we, as a society, need to examine how institutional welfare came to be and what we can do to effectively reduce it before swinging a hammer at it).  I loathe vulture capitalists, too.  Do we always and always have to commodify our fellow human beings?

[Juan]

I don't embrace constitution based political principles or christian moral philosophies...

That's curious - I thought most Western society was based on Judeo-Christian philosophy, regardless of religion. Where do your moral philosophies come from?