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Started by timpate, September 20, 2010, 07:56:24 PM

Kidnostad3

Quote from: K_Dubb on May 03, 2020, 10:43:31 AM
I don't think that's quite what they're saying.  Genetic links to Polynesians have been suggested for a while going back at least to Kennewick Man who looked different from most of today's Indians, and a bunch of early skeletons from Mexico and Brazil.

The problem with thinking they crossed the widest expanses of the Pacific by boat is that settlement in the intermediate islands is very recent, Hawaii being less than 2000 years ago.  Instead, it is thought that the shared lineage represents a migration that circled the Pacific, definitely using boats but more following the coastlines around, from at least Taiwan (where modern Polynesians are thought to have originated) all the way up through the (once-connected) Alaska down to the tip of South America.  Not quite Kon Tiki in reverse but still impressive.

I do think some boats made it across the Pacific pre-Columbus (the introductions of chickens and some kind of tuber I forget representing the clearest evidence, one going one way and one going the other) but that was much more recent than this guy's ancestors.

Below is an excerpt from the Encyclopedia of New Zealand which is a quasi official publication of the NZ Government. 

Reaching South America:

"Ultimately explorers (Polynesian/Maori) arrived at South America, and then returned to their home islands in Remote Oceania with the kūmara (sweet potato) and a species of gourd. Radiocarbon dates for kūmara found on Mangaia in the southern Cook Islands show that Polynesians had reached South America and returned by 1000 A.D."

https://teara.govt.nz/en/pacific-migrations/page-the result 1

While some may regard the above statement as a bit dogmatic they do offer some scientific evidence in the way of sweet potato and gourd DNA. 

Polynesian DNA showing up in Blackfeet Indians and to a lesser degree in other tribes could have been hosted by migrants from Asia coming by way of the Bearing Land Bridge or those who later followed coast lines of Asia/island hopped in a northerly direction in some sort of vessel, crossed the Bearing Sea and then proceeded south along the west coast of North America.  It also seems plausible to me that the DNA could have been introduced into the Western Hemisphere via South America or some intermediate point along the West Coast going north given the distances Polynesians are known to have traveled over open ocean.  (Oahu to San Diego is a mere 2100 miles.)  As you know there was migration south to north worldwide as the glaciers receded and it seems possible to me that this might have been the case with the ancestors of the Blackfeet.  Of course, periods of isolation and DNA mutation points would have to be factored in but so far I haven't seen anything that would rule that out.

albrecht

Quote from: Kidnostad3 on May 03, 2020, 02:56:56 PM
Below is an excerpt from the Encyclopedia of New Zealand which is a quasi official publication of the NZ Government. 

Reaching South America:

"Ultimately explorers (Polynesian/Maori) arrived at South America, and then returned to their home islands in Remote Oceania with the kūmara (sweet potato) and a species of gourd. Radiocarbon dates for kūmara found on Mangaia in the southern Cook Islands show that Polynesians had reached South America and returned by 1000 A.D."

https://teara.govt.nz/en/pacific-migrations/page-the result 1

While some may regard the above statement as a bit dogmatic they do offer some scientific evidence in the way of sweet potato and gourd DNA. 

Polynesian DNA showing up in Blackfeet Indians and to a lesser degree in other tribes could have been hosted by migrants from Asia coming by way of the Bearing Land Bridge or those who later followed coast lines of Asia/island hopped in a northerly direction in some sort of vessel, crossed the Bearing Sea and then proceeded south along the west coast of North America.  It also seems plausible to me that the DNA could have been introduced into the Western Hemisphere via South America or some intermediate point along the West Coast going north given the distances Polynesians are known to have traveled over open ocean.  (Oahu to San Diego is a mere 2100 miles.)  As you know there was migration south to north worldwide as the glaciers receded and it seems possible to me that this might have been the case with the ancestors of the Blackfeet.  Of course, periods of isolation and DNA mutation points would have to be factored in but so far I haven't seen anything that would rule that out.
As an aside I met Thor Heyerdahl once but I was young and it was perfunctory. I seem to recall some years ago some claims that New World chemicals (mainly cocaine, THC, and nicotine) was found in Egyptian mummies. Apparently they like to party and dance like an Egyptian. But then other sources couldn't validate the claim and it is "still controversial." 


I'm no expert but I would think the mapping of the human genome, modern DNA- and other- testing of old bodies (and current) populations, and tracking crop hybridization and archeological remains that we could settle the questions of human migration patterns, origins of 'who are the real Joose,' Solutrean Hypothesis, all the rumors of offspring generations from certain famous people (Genghis Khan, Charlemagne, etc.) And even "prove" which Muzzies are real "Sayyid."

K_Dubb

Quote from: albrecht on May 03, 2020, 03:40:17 PM
As an aside I met Thor Heyerdahl once but I was young and it was perfunctory. I seem to recall some years ago some claims that New World chemicals (mainly cocaine, THC, and nicotine) was found in Egyptian mummies. Apparently they like to party and dance like an Egyptian. But then other sources couldn't validate the claim and it is "still controversial." 


I'm no expert but I would think the mapping of the human genome, modern DNA- and other- testing of old bodies (and current) populations, and tracking crop hybridization and archeological remains that we could settle the questions of human migration patterns, origins of 'who are the real Joose,' Solutrean Hypothesis, all the rumors of offspring generations from certain famous people (Genghis Khan, Charlemagne, etc.) And even "prove" which Muzzies are real "Sayyid."

Heyerdahl was a nut but the thing he never gets credit for was breaking out of the old "who was here first" debate with its tinges of racial and ethnic pride and insisting that lots of ancient cultures were capable of advanced boat-building and navigation.  And doing that very early, too.

I don't think any of proposed voyages were ever subsequently backed up by archaeology, nor am I aware that anyone has attempted the actual, most likely voyage in a traditional canoe from Polynesia to South America.  That big Hawaiian double-hulled canoe has been here, but they shipped it across.  And it has gone around the world, but also the wrong way.   If Heyerdahl had gone the other way, people would be saying he was a visionary instead of kind of a joke.

Kidnostad3

Quote from: albrecht on May 03, 2020, 03:40:17 PM
As an aside I met Thor Heyerdahl once but I was young and it was perfunctory. I seem to recall some years ago some claims that New World chemicals (mainly cocaine, THC, and nicotine) was found in Egyptian mummies. Apparently they like to party and dance like an Egyptian. But then other sources couldn't validate the claim and it is "still controversial." 
I'm no expert but I would think the mapping of the human genome, modern DNA- and other- testing of old bodies (and current) populations, and tracking crop hybridization and archeological remains that we could settle the questions of human migration patterns, origins of 'who are the real Joose,' Solutrean Hypothesis, all the rumors of offspring generations from certain famous people (Genghis Khan, Charlemagne, etc.) And even "prove" which Muzzies are real "Sayyid."

I agree, but, what if it turns out that one is a descendent of Quasimodo?  Some members of my extended family make me hesitant to go down that road.

albrecht

Quote from: K_Dubb on May 03, 2020, 04:23:55 PM
Heyerdahl was a nut but the thing he never gets credit for was breaking out of the old "who was here first" debate with its tinges of racial and ethnic pride and insisting that lots of ancient cultures were capable of advanced boat-building and navigation.  And doing that very early, too.

I don't think any of proposed voyages were ever subsequently backed up by archaeology, nor am I aware that anyone has attempted the actual, most likely voyage in a traditional canoe from Polynesia to South America.  That big Hawaiian double-hulled canoe has been here, but they shipped it across.  And it has gone around the world, but also the wrong way.   If Heyerdahl had gone the other way, people would be saying he was a visionary instead of kind of a joke.
Blasphemer!

Heyerdahl?   Meh.   If we are talking open boat men, I'm a Captain Bligh guy. 


K_Dubb

Quote from: albrecht on May 03, 2020, 04:51:23 PM
Blasphemer!

Haha I figured you'd like that.  I only mentioned it because you brought up the Solutrean Hypothesis again, where they have done exactly the kind of genetic tests you are calling for.  You just don't like the answer.

albrecht

Quote from: K_Dubb on May 03, 2020, 07:12:43 PM
Haha I figured you'd like that.  I only mentioned it because you brought up the Solutrean Hypothesis again, where they have done exactly the kind of genetic tests you are calling for.  You just don't like the answer fake news.   ;)
I guess due to the tv shows the various scholars are coming out of the woodwork to write "Viking" stuff. Here is some new stuff, though not, really, new from my perusal of the excerpts (I haven't read the book.) But I think the 'value' of women in those times was well known and the legal treatment was, generally, better than women in most other parts of the world during those times. Also I think there is nothing culturally unique that women would control men's fate or be a reason for battles, motivation, and intrigue through-out most history of the world!  But I also don't knock academics who finally get some popular publishing by surfing the wave. 

https://www.historytoday.com/miscellanies/rise-valkyries

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/event/article-8273191/Valkyrie-review-Johanna-Fridriksdottir-makes-Vikings-feel-far-closer-before.html
She seems to have some legit credentials:

https://humanities.yale.edu/people/johanna-fridriksdottir



https://humanities.yale.edu/people/johanna-fridriksdottir

K_Dubb

Quote from: albrecht on May 03, 2020, 07:43:08 PM
I guess due to the tv shows the various scholars are coming out of the woodwork to write "Viking" stuff. Here is some new stuff, though not, really, new from my perusal of the excerpts (I haven't read the book.) But I think the 'value' of women in those times was well known and the legal treatment was, generally, better than women in most other parts of the world during those times. Also I think there is nothing culturally unique that women would control men's fate or be a reason for battles, motivation, and intrigue through-out most history of the world!  But I also don't knock academics who finally get some popular publishing by surfing the wave. 

https://www.historytoday.com/miscellanies/rise-valkyries

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/event/article-8273191/Valkyrie-review-Johanna-Fridriksdottir-makes-Vikings-feel-far-closer-before.html
She seems to have some legit credentials:

https://humanities.yale.edu/people/johanna-fridriksdottir



https://humanities.yale.edu/people/johanna-fridriksdottir

Absolutely agree!  Would come as no surprise to anyone who has ever read the Laxdaela saga and met its beautiful, scheming, bloodthirsty heroine.  Or anyone who grew up in a Norwegian household, for that matter.

pate

Quote from: K_Dubb on May 03, 2020, 07:12:43 PM
Haha I figured you'd like that.  I only mentioned it because you brought up the Solutrean Hypothesis again, where they have done exactly the kind of genetic tests you are calling for.  You just don't like the answer.

I got your Soul Train Hypothesis right hear:

https://youtu.be/lODBVM802H8

-p





Dr. MD MD

Quote from: Asuka Langley on May 05, 2020, 03:25:52 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JovIKbxZpNY

I would’ve caught and decked the guy. Then I’d run over him a couple times with one of those carts.



ItsOver

Quote from: aldousburbank on May 07, 2020, 07:26:03 PM
The truth is in the youtube comments.
Heh, heh, heh... right on with the deGrasse deAsse comment.

aldousburbank

Quote from: ItsOver on May 07, 2020, 08:35:06 PM
Heh, heh, heh... right on with the deGrasse deAsse comment.

That comment really made my day!  ;D

ksm32

Me - "Handicap spaces at liquor stores, I don't think they should be drinking"
Wife - "They still seem to serve you no matter where you park"

She would do do well here.

paladin1991

Quote from: Asuka Langley on May 05, 2020, 03:25:52 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JovIKbxZpNY

Cart Narcs!  This guy is an amazing asshole.  But then so are the lazy fucks who just leave their carts.

Dr. MD MD

Quote from: paladin1991 on May 09, 2020, 08:09:24 PM
Cart Narcs!  This guy is an amazing asshole.  But then so are the lazy fucks who just leave their carts.

Most places I know actually employ someone to round those carts up so what does it matter? In fact, if we all be good guys and help him out by pushing them back for him maybe Walmart sends him home early that day because they’re cheap fuckers who just don’t give a shit that most of their employees live at or below the poverty line. Ever think about that?


paladin1991

Quote from: Dr. MD MD on May 09, 2020, 08:14:37 PM
Most places I know actually employ someone to round those carts up so what does it matter? In fact, if we all be good guys and help him out by pushing them back for him maybe Walmart sends him home early that day because they’re cheap fuckers who just don’t give a shit that most of their employees live at or below the poverty line. Ever think about that?

Nope.  Never thought about that.  I thought that would mean that there could be one more person avail to help out at the 12 registers that a lot of places have and never fully man.
You ever think about that?

Dr. MD MD

Quote from: paladin1991 on May 10, 2020, 07:13:07 PM
Nope.  Never thought about that.  I thought that would mean that there could be one more person avail to help out at the 12 registers that a lot of places have and never fully man.
You ever think about that?

As a mstter of fact I do...and sometimes it drives me completely mental, I must say.





Dr. MD MD

Nascar, bitches! 8)

Darlington Raceway
Sunday, May 17, 2020 | 3:30 PM ET



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