Amy On The Radio

[73s]

Couldn't hurt to try.

Hard to go wrong with fruits and vegetables 

There are associations a plenty between higher fruit & veg consumption vs. reduced chronic disease risk, but again nothing conclusive about causation or specifics as to which ones do what.

[chefist]

Hard to go wrong with fruits and vegetables 

There are associations a plenty between higher fruit & veg consumption vs. reduced chronic disease risk, but again nothing conclusive about causation or specifics as to which ones do what.

Most nutritionists agree to try and get as wide a variety as possible ...the most nutrient dense veggies are kale, collards n beet greens...use those then blend in as many different others as is practical...I have an Omega Vert auger juicer... love it...

[analog kid]

Most nutritionists agree to try and get as wide a variety as possible ...the most nutrient dense veggies are kale, collards n beet greens...use those then blend in as many different others as is practical...I have an Omega Vert auger juicer... love it...

This stuff is good. It's plant-based protein (hemp), kale and other greens.



It helped me with fatigue problems I was having. It works so well that, if you drink it on an empty stomach, it can make you jittery, like slamming down a few cups of coffee.

It's A Whole!!!

Wow. Great to see my other favorite skeptic around.

Everyone welcome A Whole from #DMTalk

Welcome Skeptic

[Richard Groyper]

Amy, is allowing me to sniff coke off of your butt an opinion?  (You know, strictly for healing purposes.) I've heard good things about this method.

[WOTR]

... or from Food Babe (she's a proven source of terrible data and uneducated fear-mongering advice)

Thanks... I had never heard of her until now (and I did browse her site.)  I stopped at Subway on my way home tonight and was completely unaware until reading her article that I was taking my life into my hands and may be dead by morning. 

Oh, and "Hello" whole skeptic.  I look forward to reading your posts going forward.

[Dr. MD MD]

I take a very dim view to CAM as I see a lot of people get the wool pulled over their eyes by so-called professionals and "experts" making bold and oft blanket health claims. This is a topic of public health which I feel VERY passionate about because I've seen terrible things happen to friends who rely on CAM in substitute for evidence-based medicine. Some of them have nearly lost their lives thinking an oil or wonderful cure-all supplement or dietary claim would heal their incurable disease. I want to emphasize--- they. nearly. lost. their. lives.

I both agree and disagree, Amy. Of course, I mostly agree with everything you're saying. The scientific method is the most effective and reliable approach to gaining knowledge...but it's a matter of how that method is aimed and focused, as well; and even it can lose the forest for the trees sometimes. Not only can science sometimes be a little too atomistic for it's own good in it's approach but it can often be co-opted by the forces of capitalism and consumerism as well. If you think big pharma is an altruistic force for good in the world of health care think again. Yes, we rely on them for many wonderful things not available to generations past but they also drop the ball with great regularity too...and too often they are swayed by potential profits and the emphasis is on money, money, money! Now, this is not just about science, of course, but how the forces of business and politics interacts with it, often to its detriment.

The usual methodology is to isolate a component of something that you consider a likely candidate for the biological activity or mechanism you're exploring. I won't deny that it often yields valuable results but it ignores other potential interactions with other isolates that might be found with it in nature. If the goal of science is to have as comprehensive a knowledge as possible shouldn't we also be studying this? Ethnobotanists and ethnobiologists do study and explore various systems of herbalism throughout the world for potential cures and treatments and many have been found this way. The problem is because of time and money the study isn't comprehensive enough and usually takes the most obvious approach described. Too often I hear the the time and money argument in response and I can never really buy it. Real science should be beyond the sway of both. The aim is to know, not just convince. 

I'd love to see more legitimate scientific studies of herbs and various alternatives but I rarely ever do; and when I do they're often suspect for various reasons.

At a time when Western Europeans most advanced attempts at medicine involved drilling holes in the cranium to release evil spirits the Chinese already had a fairly advanced (for the times) system of medicine established for millennia that involved herbalism, various forms of kinesiology and physiotherapy including various exercise routines and manipulations, acupuncture and even some rudimentary surgical techniques. I just can't throw all those potential babies out with the bathwater just because the scientific community finds it distasteful or because big pharma feels threatened by it. 

There's also the question of freedom and freewill to consider in all this. Medical science should do it's best to educate, inform, and treat but should it really be regulating to the degree you're suggesting. The medical community would certainly do it's best to inform people of the dangers of drinking Draino and warn people against doing that but occasionally some crazy and/or despondent people will do it anyway. Should Draino become a controlled substance because of that? I think you get my point. If something is clearly shown to be fraudulent, dangerous or a hazard to public health, by all means, crackdown. Otherwise, hands off grandpa's ginseng. 

Speaking of salty language, never turn on "The Doctors," "Oz," or "Dr. Phil" with me in the room unless you want to set me off. It would make for good entertainment but I find it absolutely appalling what some of these people get away with saying and still manage to keep their licenses and places on respected boards.

Ugh! Don't get me started with those guys. Dr. Phil is pretty much a constant eye roll for me.  : 

However, there was a guy years ago who seemed to offer a more balanced, science-based approach to exploring alternatives. Perhaps he's been discredited by now, I don't know, but Dr. Andrew Weil used to discuss whatever promising research into alternatives there was at the time. A lot of it seemed very reasonable to me at the time (things like dietary recommendations, fish oils and probiotics, etc.) but I lost touch with his writing years ago, though I'm sure I still have some of his books somewhere. I know he also came out with a line of his own products and supplements and so you can consider him a shill but he wrote about this stuff for years before he ever did that, for what it's worth.

You'll probably get a kick out of this, Amy:


http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3x0d95

When my Mom was first diagnosed with cancer, I was very blunt with her about the fact that complimentary alternative and faith-based medicine benefits are extremely marginal. I explained to her the notion of placebos, how they can sometimes help, but how they aren't a reliable source of treatment. When we didn't like one answer about waiting several months to see a doctor, I sent her to another one and she had her surgery the next day. She's been two years cancer free.

/end superlong Bellgab post

Glad to hear your mom is doing so well, Amy, but I think you're hitting on something essential here. Our bodies are fairly self-correcting, for the most part; and most people will most often get better from their ailments on their own through that process. Placebos can definitely be effective sometimes and most often just the act of caring for someone, in whatever way, is enough to expedite a recovery. It's the examples of where this self-correction starts to fail that things begin to get more complicated and I'm sorry you and your family have had to face those kinds of challenges. Anyway, just a few thoughts I had in response. Be well.

/end superlong Bellgab post response 

[WOTR]

Most nutritionists agree to try and get as wide a variety as possible ...the most nutrient dense veggies are kale, collards n beet greens...use those then blend in as many different others as is practical...I have an Omega Vert auger juicer... love it...

Ha... I still love my old Champion juicer.  Every couple of days it gets fed a diet of things that I would not otherwise eat (beats, Kale, greens, parsley mixed with apples, ginger and carrots.)  I don't even do it so much for health reasons- I just really like what it produces.  Sort of like Kefir.  You could tell me that it is bad and harmful and I would still drink a small glass each day... I just love the stuff.

This stuff is good. It's plant-based protein (hemp), kale and other greens.



It helped me with fatigue problems I was having. It works so well that, if you drink it on an empty stomach, it can make you jittery, like slamming down a few cups of coffee.

Welcome Skeptic

Thanks for the reminder.  After taking it the first time I became violently ill with (for the first time in my adult life, projectile vomit.)  Being somebody who either does not learn quickly, or somebody who does not immediately blame one event for another (particularly when the data is being provided by only a single event), I tried it again three nights later.  I could hit a wastebasket from across the room on that occasion as well.  I was going to try it a third time before blaming the product, but simply could not bring myself to do it.  The memory of the previous nights was still too fresh in my mind.

Anyhow, I'm happy it worked for you- but I am going to say that I have some kind of a... sensitivity to one of the ingredients (sorry if that was the wrong term to use, 73's.)

[aldousburbank]

However, there was a guy years ago who seemed to offer a more balanced, science-based approach to exploring alternatives. Perhaps he's been discredited by now, I don't know, but Dr. Andrew Weil used to discuss whatever promising research into alternatives there was at the time. A lot of it seemed very reasonable to me at the time (things like dietary recommendations, fish oils and probiotics, etc.) but I lost touch with his writing years ago, though I'm sure I still have some of his books somewhere. I know he also came out with a line of his own products and supplements and so you can consider him a shill but he wrote about this stuff for years before he ever did that, for what it's worth.

I was a friend of Dr. Weil back in the day- I guess I still am but have not seen him in a few years. Pretty straightforward (sciencey) diet based reccomendations. Was the founder of the University of Arizona's College of Integrative Medicine which I have had many postive experiences and interactions with.

[Zenman]

Hang in there, Amy. Sounds like simplifying things and taking a bit of time off might be some good medicine.

And welcome A Whole. 

[analog kid]

Anyhow, I'm happy it worked for you- but I am going to say that I have some kind of a... sensitivity to one of the ingredients (sorry if that was the wrong term to use, 73's.)

Out of all the brands of protein shakes out there, you tried the same one I did -- and it made you vomit?

Small world.

[CornyCrow]

For anyone interested, for evidence-based information concerning food and health, I'd recommend checking out the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics ("AND"), the association for registered dietitians in the US.  There is also the NIH which has a wealth of online information. Mayo Clinic is another trusted resource and WebMD isn't bad (but never my top choice).

I'm a dietetics student myself. Not an RD yet but close (have to complete a year long internship of practical training). 

As for soy, there is reasearch looking into the beneficial effects of its phytoestrogens on cancer, but nothing is definitive. Many nutrition studies rely on associations. Causation is almost impossible to prove due to ethical constraints with human test subjects. Animals can be studied but the effects on them are not always transferrable to humans.

I have not yet heard of ill effects of soy, in general, but intolerances and allergies can happen to many people with many foods.

An intolerance is usually a case of lacking a needed enzyme to properly digest a food. An allergy is another beast altogether and triggers an immune response which can be dangerous (the whole anaphylactic shock situation with a windpipe shutting off, etc). Many people toss the two terms around interchangibly but they are different. People around the world are usually born with the lactase enzyme to digest milk but some (a majority, actually) stop producing this enzyme at some point in their childhood and become "lactose intolerant". This can cause gas and bloating, which itself is actually caused by your gut bacteria working to digest that lactose for you and giving off gas as a byproduct.

Also, unfortunately supplements are not regulated by the FDA. So you can't be sure what's really in them or in what amounts. Prescription drugs are regulated but you can't normally get multivitamins and other supplements via prescription. For more details on this you can actually just go to the FDAs webpage and read about it, they give warnings to consumers about supplements.

I also hate Dr. Oz and I do not like the half baked studies that are poorly described in the news media. They confuse people, and then we have to explain what was not said or was reported incorrectly.

Just thought I'd add to the health-geek talk 🙂. (at the risk of being seen as my Avatar again)

There is a small study that linked soy to being a causative factor in breast cancer IN CERTAIN PEOPLE:
http://www.breastcancer.org/research-news/soy-may-turn-on-genes-linked-to-cancer

The 'certain people' is interesting.  Traditional medicine looks for things that work for all of us,  after all, that's where the dollars are, but bodies differ.  I have found, over the years, things that work for me.  I have no assurance that others will have the same result. 

I remember when stem cell treatment was supposed to be the answer for cancer, but now we've found the disorder returning a while after treatment.  I take various herbal supplements for things and am happy with the results.     

 

[pate]

I have no clue what is going on in hear.

I figured I'd drunk post and pass out.

Hold on, I do have a secret stash of booze, but I was saving it for the BBQ tomorrow.

Must belch on this...

[A Whole Skeptic]

...
Oh, and "Hello" whole skeptic.  I look forward to reading your posts going forward.

Thanks, but I find bellgab posting confusing as there is no counter telling me when I am approching 140 characters. This omisson needs to be addressed. 

[Zenman]

Thanks, but I find bellgab posting confusing as there is no counter telling me when I am approching 140 characters. This omisson needs to be addressed. 

Lol. We're on the honor system here.

[TigerLily]

Thanks, but I find bellgab posting confusing as there is no counter telling me when I am approching 140 characters. This omisson needs to be addressed. 

But how refreshg 2 be able 2 complete a full thot w/o abrevs.  Welcome Whole Skeptic. Post often. 140 character limit optional

[WOTR]

Out of all the brands of protein shakes out there, you tried the same one I did -- and it made you vomit?

Small world.

It looked familiar, but was a few years back, and my memory is not great (probably because I do not ingest enough green / hemp protein. )  So I spent some time searching, and it was Vega One or vega sport. I remembered searching the net after the first bout of illness to find many people reported getting violently ill, and I remember a few of the reviews (enough to make me positive that it was one of the formulations of Vega One...)  There are 24 instances of the word "vomit" on this page of reviews, alone.  It was really a special product (I read somewhere that they have changed formulations now...) It was also the the first (and the last) time that I tried something plant based for health reasons (certainly it must be "healthy" for me?)  I work out and it is pure whey for me.  Fuck the vegan thing.  https://balancedgrettie.com/2012/04/04/product-review-vega-one-vegan-protein-shakes/

This is the review that brought it all back... "I just spoke with the customer service department as I had a similar experience as well. First time to vomit in my 57 years (as well as the runs.. sorry to be so descriptive). She advised that there is so much fibre and special healthy ingredients that have a cleansing effect which can cause this reaction to clean out your body."

Yup... It had a cleansing effect, alright.  After a couple of hours of emptying your stomach in the most violent manner possible, you are pretty cleansed.  I remember that review because it contributed to my decision to try it again.  I had no proof that it was the product that made me sick- and what if I was so loaded with toxins that I really did need this magical cleansing powder? I decided to cut the amount and try it again.  After my second night of spraying the floor and walls around my toilet (I took half the recommended amount), I decided to toss the crap.  Sorry to be so descriptive- but I have never been more sick in my life (nor more thankful that the bathtub is located directly beside the toilet so that you need only turn to the left when another wave of nausea washes over you.)

[chefist]

Ha... I still love my old Champion juicer.  Every couple of days it gets fed a diet of things that I would not otherwise eat (beats, Kale, greens, parsley mixed with apples, ginger and carrots.)  I don't even do it so much for health reasons- I just really like what it produces.  Sort of like Kefir.  You could tell me that it is bad and harmful and I would still drink a small glass each day... I just love the stuff.

That's a great point...I think many don't understand how great it tastes...I've been making them for my daughter her whole life (she's eight), and she loves fresh juice...we never buy juice at the store, and she is constantly asking Dad for "a fresh juice", not soda...

[Roswells, Art]

I was a friend of Dr. Weil back in the day- I guess I still am but have not seen him in a few years. Pretty straightforward (sciencey) diet based reccomendations. Was the founder of the University of Arizona's College of Integrative Medicine which I have had many postive experiences and interactions with.

I have one of his books. I regret buying it. It's a mess. I bet he's a cool dude though.

[WOTR]

Thanks, but I find bellgab posting confusing as there is no counter telling me when I am approching 140 characters. This omisson needs to be addressed. 

Lol. We're on the honor system here.

This is true.  Please see my last post if you are wondering how far you can trust me to follow rules without providing consequences...

[analog kid]

It looked familiar, but was a few years back, and my memory is not great (probably because I do not ingest enough green / hemp protein. )  So I spent some time searching, and it was Vega One or vega sport. (I remembered searching the net after the first bout of illness to find many people reported getting violently ill, and I remember a few of the reviews (enough to make me positive that it was one of the formulations of Vega One...)  There are 24 instances of the word "vomit" on this page of reviews, alone.  It was really a special product (I read somewhere that they have changed formulations now...) It was also the the first (and the last) time that I tried something plant based for health reasons (certainly it must be "healthy" for me?)  I work out and it is pure whey for me.  Fuck the vegan thing.  https://balancedgrettie.com/2012/04/04/product-review-vega-one-vegan-protein-shakes/

This is the review that brought it all back... "I just spoke with the customer service department as I had a similar experience as well. First time to vomit in my 57 years (as well as the runs.. sorry to be so descriptive). She advised that there is so much fibre and special healthy ingredients that have a cleansing effect which can cause this reaction to clean out your body."

Yup... It had a cleansing effect, alright.  After a couple of hours of emptying your stomach in the most violent manner possible, you are pretty cleansed.  I remember that review because it contributed to my decision to try it again.  I had no proof that it was the product that made me sick- and what if I was so loaded with toxins that I really did need this magical cleansing powder? I decided to cut the amount and try it again.  After my second night of spraying the floor and walls around my toilet (I took half the recommended amount), I decided to toss the crap.  Sorry to be so descriptive- but I have never been more sick in my life (nor more thankful that the bathtub is located directly beside the toilet so that you need only turn to the left when another wave of nausea washes over you.)

Jesus. I'm allergic to B3, all multivitamins and vitamin infused drinks, any pill that's a jell cap, something is certain brands of soap, and on and on. When I find something that works for me, that I'm not allergic to, I consider myself very lucky, and the protein shake gave me no side effects at all.

But forget I mentioned it. I'm not really into the homeopathy thing anyway.

[WOTR]

Jesus. I'm allergic to B3, all multivitamins and vitamin infused drinks, any pill that's a jell cap, something is certain brands of soap, and on and on. When I find something that works for me, that I'm not allergic to, I consider myself very lucky, and the protein shake gave me no side effects at all.

But forget I mentioned it. I'm not really into the homeopathy thing anyway.

I am the complete opposite.  Stomach of Iron with no allergies- but this knocked me on my ass. It must work for most people (it seems to be popular).  I continued looking at that link- and there are dozens of reviews up to the present day of people getting sick and some landing in the ER.  However, almost all of the reviews citing extreme illness came from Vega one and not just Vega (there is a formulation difference.)  I would speculate that there is an ingredient in the "one" that causes certain people to have a problem (insert "the larger animal" joke here.)

[analog kid]

I am the complete opposite.  Stomach of Iron with no allergies- but this knocked me on my ass. It must work for most people (it seems to be popular).  I continued looking at that link- and there are dozens of reviews up to the present day of people getting sick and some landing in the ER.  However, almost all of the reviews citing extreme illness came from Vega one and not just Vega (there is a formulation difference.)  I would speculate that there is an ingredient in the "one" that causes certain people to have a problem (insert "the larger animal" joke here.)

That's why any over-the-counter remedy advertised as "herbal" can automatically be dismissed (the word herbal itself is a shibboleth) - because it has to be so generic and base in its ingredients that it isn't going to have adverse effects on the general public, who are on a myriad of other medications it might clash with.

*I'm fairly hammered at this point, so I'll shut up.

[aldousburbank]

That's why any over-the-counter remedy advertised as "herbal" can automatically be dismissed (the word herbal itself is a shibboleth) - because it has to be so generic and base in its ingredients that it isn't going to have adverse effects on the general public, who are on a myriad of other medications it might clash with.

*I'm fairly hammered at this point, so I'll shut up.

Hammered is a shibboleth.

[Roswells, Art]

That's why any over-the-counter remedy advertised as "herbal" can automatically be dismissed (the word herbal itself is a shibboleth) - because it has to be so generic and base in its ingredients that it isn't going to have adverse effects on the general public, who are on a myriad of other medications it might clash with.

*I'm fairly hammered at this point, so I'll shut up.

I'm not sure if that's true about the herbs. (I'll take you at your word as to be hammered, lol). You can get Kava Kava root over the counter, it helps you relax and is bad for your liver. Also a few herbs have a warning on the bottle to not take if you are on serotonin re-uptake inhibitors.

[analog kid]

Hammered is a shibboleth.

It was good enough for Rustin Cohle.

I'm not sure if that's true about the herbs. (I'll take you at your word as to be hammered, lol). You can get Kava Kava root over the counter, it helps you relax and is bad for your liver. Also a few herbs have a warning on the bottle to not take if you are on serotonin re-uptake inhibitors.

You're right. I should say, most anything advertised as an herbal remedy, or a blend of herbal ingredients.

[Dr. MD MD]

That's why any over-the-counter remedy advertised as "herbal" can automatically be dismissed (the word herbal itself is a shibboleth) - because it has to be so generic and base in its ingredients that it isn't going to have adverse effects on the general public, who are on a myriad of other medications it might clash with.

*I'm fairly hammered at this point, so I'll shut up.

Many herbs have components that certainly will have a an effect on the body. People should just be open about what they're taking with their doctors so that they know to check for possible interactions with other medications you may be on and either adjust that or advise you accordingly about whether you should be taking both or not. For example, if you're on an SSRI you probably shouldn't be taking St. John's Wort because it really does have a similar (although weaker) effect. While not enough serotonin can cause depression in some people too much can be very dangerous, even fatal in some cases. 

[73s]

Most nutritionists agree to try and get as wide a variety as possible ...the most nutrient dense veggies are kale, collards n beet greens...use those then blend in as many different others as is practical...I have an Omega Vert auger juicer... love it...

I'm not sure there is agreement on what the "most nutrient dense" veggies are.  But the ones you listed are great, especially kale for calcium for instance. Studies on beets have shown a modest improvement in endurance athlete running performance also (very modest, but significant).

This came up in my biochemistry class in the spring. A research group attempted to make a ratings system for so-called superfoods and a panel of experts couldn't really agree on how to define the term. There are essential vitamins and minerals we know we need, but then there are thousands of phytochemicals, antioxidants and other nutrients we are not even totally sure we understand the functions of but we know they're loosely associated with good health.

Anyway depending on how they ranked the importance of the various constituents, different fruits and veggies would pop out in the "top 10" type lists. If you want I can track paper and PM the results.

[73s]

I have one of his books. I regret buying it. It's a mess. I bet he's a cool dude though.

I have one of his books too. Some segments I liked, others a little bit odd I thought. The part that stuck with me was his encouragement to eat salmon about twice a week for the DHA/EPA omega-3 fatty acids. I kind of started doing that and was reinforced to do that from information I picked up in my studies.

[Dr. MD MD]

I have one of his books too. Some segments I liked, others a little bit odd I thought. The part that stuck with me was his encouragement to eat salmon about twice a week for the DHA/EPA omega-3 fatty acids. I kind of started doing that and was reinforced to do that from information I picked up in my studies.

Yeah, I don't know what Roz is talking about or even which book. I'm always more of fan of someone saying why they think something's a mess than just saying that think it is, which is pretty meaningless in itself. I thought most of his information and recommendations were pretty sound and reasonable.

[73s]

There is a small study that linked soy to being a causative factor in breast cancer IN CERTAIN PEOPLE:
http://www.breastcancer.org/research-news/soy-may-turn-on-genes-linked-to-cancer

The article you cited does say that previous research had "mixed results" about this, and that this was a small study. I have seen other articles citing protective effects against breast cancer. So I wouldn't take it to the bank that soy consumption would either cause or exacerbate cancer just yet. 

However, it is known that estrogen supplements can lead to an increase in cancer in post-menopausal women. And isoflavones can be treated similarly to estrogen in the body (structural similarities). But it is not actually estrogen.

My take on it is the jury is still out. If there is a specific concern about recurring breast cancer I guess I would not go out of my way to consume unusally large amounts of soy. But given the research showing positive health benefits of soy, I wouldn't ban it from my diet.

But as always, consult with your physicians and consult an RD directly about specific individual concerns and don't get advice from people on BellGab! 😊