Art Bell

[PKaiser]

I disagree.
It was for the rich.  The idea was if you cut taxes for the rich they would then spend all their billions of dollars saved which would then trickle down to us lesser folks. It didn't work out that way. They tend to hold on to their riches. I also think Reagan knew that when he implemented that tax cut.

Actually, it's in the data (lol). Income from 1983-1989 in the top quintile grew at 12%. But guess what? During the same timeframe incomes in the bottom quintile also grew at an identical 12%. So not only did the poor do much better under Reagan, the gap between the "haves and the have-nots" did not widen, which you wouldn't be able to say for the past 10 years.

[PKaiser]

Not only do the rich spend it, the rich take that extra money they earned and create new jobs with it.

One other thing about those days: we had real full employment (no 94 million US citizens out of the workforce like today) with a manufacturing base and 40 hour a week jobs. The reason the '90s were so good was because for the first time in 60 years conservatives took the House and Senate and balanced the budget while leaving Reagan's tax cuts essentially in place.

[GravitySucks]

Then explain why our economy was the most robust when tax rates for the wealthy were at 90%?

I do think taxes can be prohibitive. But I also think, not regulating where businesses put their money hurts the economy.

Believe what you want, but trickle down economics has never worked. Wages have stagnated for decades even with lowered taxes.

I don't think the 1930's were a very robust economy. It took the industrialization in conjunction with WWII to truly establish our economy. Then the GI Bill allowed a lot of people to attend college when they returned from the war.

There were a zillion loopholes, tax havens and Swiss bank accounts. A lot, but not all, of those loopholes and deductions have been eliminated. Plus we did not have the competition from other countries that we have today. We had industries. Everything we used to buy was made in the US.

Today we have a global economy, almost everything we buy (including half of our food) is imported, and we have virtually no industry left in America. We have one of the highest corporate tax rates in the world, and yet we still run a budget deficit of over $400 Billion per year.

Our debt is over $19 Trillion. Do you know how long it would even take you to count to a Trillion? If you counted one number per second, 24 hours per day, 365 days per year, it would take you over 31,000 years just to count to a trillion. 31,709.79 years to be exact. But don't stutter, or it could take you longer.

Corporations are holding over $2 trillion dollars in offshore accounts and investing in other countries, because if they bring it back here, they would have to pay 35%. This is money that could be aiding our economy and fueling growth. Instead, it is aiding other countries.

[PKaiser]

GS our deficits are at one trillion dollars per year now.

And the left used to howl at Reagan's $300 million deficits. It almost seems comical now if it wasn't so serious how fiscally ill-informed folks can be.

[GravitySucks]

Do you think any of those people got higher wages during this? We were in a recession.  They took the money they saved in taxes and kept it.

What years are you talking about?  I want to make sure I answer the question to the best of my ability. In my career, I got consistent raises that more than kept pace with the cost of living until about 2010.

[Uncle Duke]

Not in the infantry. Support units tho... If you're overweight: no promotion!

In the mid 90s I lost an outstanding USAF O-3 biomedical engineer because of his weight.  They put him on the Fatboy program, but he didn't make any progress and was forced out after he got passed over for major.  I ran into the guy several years later at a conference, he was quite thin and working as the vice-president of engineering for a company out in CA.  I still wonder if he purposely gained the weight to get out of the USAF.

[DarKPenguiN]

GS our deficits are at one trillion dollars per year now.

And the left used to howl at Reagan's $300 million deficits. It almost seems comical now if it wasn't so serious how fiscally ill-informed folks can be.

-Do you think this is even fixable?

Honestly, I dont. Not without some hard and cruel choices nobody will be willing to make until the ship is already sunk.

[GravitySucks]

GS our deficits are at one trillion dollars per year now.

And the left used to howl at Reagan's $300 million deficits. It almost seems comical now if it wasn't so serious how fiscally ill-informed folks can be.

I was going with the most conservative number since the numbers are so high anyways. You can never trust the numbers that they release, but I was using this data that listed it at $468 for 2015.
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/01/26/381639118/2015-will-continue-streak-of-shrinking-u-s-budget-deficit

By the end of Obama's term, he will have doubled the debt. It was 10.6 trillion on the day he took offffice. It will be over 21 trillion by the time he leaves office. He did not do that alone, so I don't just blame him. Congress appropriated those funds and approved programs we could not afford.

This country is fucked if we do not reduce the size of federal government and get to a balanced budget as quickly as possible. If we don't we will see the types of inflation that we had back in the 70's. 18-20% inflation will wipe out the debt faster than taxes. That is what is coming if we just keep letting these politicians spend like there is no tomorrow.

[Roswells, Art]

Actually, it's in the data (lol). Income from 1983-1989 in the top quintile grew at 12%. But guess what? During the same timeframe incomes in the bottom quintile also grew at an identical 12%. So not only did the poor do much better under Reagan, the gap between the "haves and the have-nots" did not widen, which you wouldn't be able to say for the past 10 years.

It's that true? I'd be willing to retract my statement if so.  Hey, did you notice how everyone bought homes and lost their shirts at the end of the last administration. Remember?

[PKaiser]

-Do you think this is even fixable?

Honestly, I dont. Not without some hard and cruel choices nobody will be willing to make until the ship is already sunk.

The last 20 years have been cruel to our country. I went to college late in life during the mid to late '90s and I was astounded at the intellectual laziness and the downright shutting down of one side of the story (ie: conservatism).  The chairman of the history department at my university was an avowed Palestinian who would get up in class and say "I hate America. But it's the only country in the world where I can stand before you and say that and not get dragged away." Then I taught high school for a very short time and found out that US history, government and economics and civics were completely ignored. I might mention I taught in three states. Anyway, to answer your question, without some serious pain this country might not recover from what the past 20 years have wrought and I'm not too happy about it.

[DarKPenguiN]

I was going with the most conservative number since the numbers are so high anyways. You can never trust the numbers that they release, but I was using this data that listed it at $468 for 2015.
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/01/26/381639118/2015-will-continue-streak-of-shrinking-u-s-budget-deficit

By the end of Obama's term, he will have doubled the debt. It was 10.6 trillion on the day he took offffice. It will be over 21 trillion by the time he leaves office. He did not do that alone, so I don't just blame him. Congress appropriated those funds and approved programs we could not afford.

This country is fucked if we do not reduce the size of federal government and get to a balanced budget as quickly as possible. If we don't we will see the types of inflation that we had back in the 70's. 18-20% inflation will wipe out the debt faster than taxes. That is what is coming if we just keep letting these politicians spend like there is no tomorrow.

Not to  mention that there are diminishing returns on the national debt- i.e. The higher it goes the less you get per dollar spent... Plus interest.

But hey, we seem to be fine borrowing money to give it away to 'less fortunate' countries along with the little bit we get in return for such high taxes.

[Roswells, Art]

Not only do the rich spend it, the rich take that extra money they earned and create new jobs with it.

No they didn't and they don't. Well, they do in Mexico.

[DarKPenguiN]

The last 20 years have been cruel to our country. I went to college late in life during the mid to late '90s and I was astounded at the intellectual laziness and the downright shutting down of one side of the story (ie: conservatism).  The chairman of the history department at my university was an avowed Palestinian who would get up in class and say "I hate America. But it's the only country in the world where I can stand before you and say that and not get dragged away." Then I taught high school for a very short time and found out that US history, government and economics and civics were completely ignored. I might mention I taught in three states. Anyway, to answer your question, without some serious pain this country might not recover from what the past 20 years have wrought and I'm not too happy about it.

My feelings as well. Plus the socialist indoctrination is now creeping into school curriculum at a younger and younger age in conjunction with lower standards.

We're in trouble and the worse it gets the worse the nation is dividing.I cant see this ending well.

[PKaiser]

It's that true? I'd be willing to retract my statement if so.  Hey, did you notice how everyone bought homes and lost their shirts at the end of the last administration. Remember?

Yes, it really is true according to the IRS.

And yes, I do know an awful lot about the housing crisis.  I am no Bush fan, any of them (well, except for Barbara and Laura), trust me.

[GravitySucks]

-Do you think this is even fixable?

Honestly, I dont. Not without some hard and cruel choices nobody will be willing to make until the ship is already sunk.

Maybe we could sell Puerto Rico and the Virgin Islands.

Tell all of the countries where we have bases overseas, that we will continue to protect them, but they have to start paying all of our costs.

Build the damn wall and deport all the illegals.

Give corporations a one time repatriation window for bringing funds into the US at a reduced tax rate.

Raise capital gains taxes on the top 1% and cut them for everyone else.

Eliminate several federal agencies starting with education, commerce, and interior and return sovereignty to the states.

Legalize marijuana and tax the shit out of it. Legalize hemp, but tax it like agriculture.

Then, at least we can all get stoned if the other steps don't work.

[PKaiser]

My feelings as well. Plus the socialist indoctrination is now creeping into school curriculum at a younger and younger age in conjunction with lower standards.

We're in trouble and the worse it gets the worse the nation is dividing.I cant see this ending well.

It's really the lowering of standards and the elimination of good old competition in our schools that is killing this country. It's insidious.

I agree with your second sentence as well.

[PKaiser]

No they didn't and they don't. Well, they do in Mexico.

Of course I was talking about the lower, non-punitive tax rates when I said that.

[Roswells, Art]

Yes, it really is true according to the IRS.

And yes, I do know an awful lot about the housing crisis.  I am no Bush fan, any of them (well, except for Barbara and Laura), trust me.

You seem to have a couple pages stuck together.

[Auslandia]

The main problem with Republicans is religion.  Take that out and it starts making a bit more sense.   But then you're also left with a bunch of libertarian types which is kinda pretend anarchy for comfortably-off first world people.  That shit wouldn't last a year in a poor country with no social services.  I've tried it. 

[TigerLily]

Actually in the 1980s it was. Reagan cut income taxes across the board (after briefly being snookered by the then speaker of the House Tip O'Neal, who conned him into raising taxes at the start of his first term) and income to the treasury grew from roughly $400 billion a year to a trillion dollars a year and led to the greatest period of sustained growth in United States history, almost 25 years of it.

Meanwhile, yesterday this country under Obama just passed another dubious record: the United States GDP grew LESS that 3% for the tenth year in a row, something that has NEVER happened here.

[GravitySucks]

It's that true? I'd be willing to retract my statement if so.  Hey, did you notice how everyone bought homes and lost their shirts at the end of the last administration. Remember?

The housing bubble was a separate but related fiasco. Banks were pressured by the government to qualify people for mortgage ps they they could ill afford. People got into houses, and did not have a nest egg to fall back on. When both incomes of a typical household are needed to pay a mortgage, you are about 1-3 months from being foreclosed on if one of those wage earners loses their job.

Once a few houses in an area get abandoned or foreclosed on, the enire market in that area gets devalued. People that are paying resposnibly end up having a mortgage that is suddenly more than their house is worth, and can't sell if they wanted to.

Real estate used to be a relatively safe investment. If you kept up maintenance, you could expect to get more when you sold your house than when you bought it. The mortgage crisis turned that upside down. Banks got stuck with houses that they sold at a loss, further devaluing property prices.

Buying a house is a major financial and life altering decision. Too many people were qualified for loans when they were living paycheck to paycheck.

I hope that makes sense.

[Auslandia]

The housing bubble was a separate but related fiasco. Banks were pressured by the government to qualify people for mortgage ps they they could ill afford. People got into houses, and did not have a nest egg to fall back on. When both incomes of a typical household are needed to pay a mortgage, you are about 1-3 months from being foreclosed on if one of those wage earners loses their job.

Once a few houses in an area get abandoned or foreclosed on, the enire market in that area gets devalued. People that are paying resposnibly end up having a mortgage that is suddenly more than their house is worth, and can't sell if they wanted to.

Real estate used to be a relatively safe investment. If you kept up maintenance, you could expect to get more when you sold your house than when you bought it. The mortgage crisis turned that upside down. Banks got stuck with houses that they sold at a loss, further devaluing property prices.

Buying a house is a major financial and life altering decision. Too many people were qualified for loans when they were living paycheck to paycheck.

I hope that makes sense.

More of that "less government" thing at work for the peeps.  They love it!

[gabrielle]

Sister TL...what is the source of the graph?

Thank you for posting this.

[PKaiser]

Your chart is from skymachines.com, a dubious source.

Not sure what your point is here though. Are you saying $300 million was worth more then than now? And whose fault is that? And how does this hurt my argument?

Not that I'm arguing, lol.

[GravitySucks]

Reagan had several issues to deal with. Rampant inflation inherited from the Nixon and Carter administrations, an aging nuclear deterrent force, and a strong desire to bankrupt the Soviet Union. He was successful in dealing with all three, but it did cost us money. Keep in mind, that to get some of his priorities passed, he had to compromise with the Democrats on social programs, including the infamous amnesty.

[PKaiser]

Fine assessment GS!

[GravitySucks]

Fine assessment GS!

The recovery in the economy took time. Plus I heard he spent a lot on Carnivora. Had it flown in special delivery.

[PKaiser]

You seem to have a couple pages stuck together.

Not sure I get that, lol....

[Auslandia]

 I am about to drop a gigantic fucking bomb here so hold onto your suspenders.  Everything would be solved if you just rub a little Chaga on it.   Social Security?

Chaga that motherfucker

ISIS?

Chaga that motherfucker

Stock market down ?

Chaga that motherfucker

[ge30542]

The housing bubble was a separate but related fiasco. Banks were pressured by the government to qualify people for mortgage ps they they could ill afford.

Pressured by the Democrats. Because, everyone should own a home, whether they can afford it, or not.