Göbekli Tepe

[Mystery43]

Turkey right? They talked about this on Ancient Aliens (can't remember which episode) and then LMH was just on Coast to Coast talking about it with GN... Can't really stand her voice so I wasn't paying close attention but it's one of the oldest sites they've found and also very strange that it was buried about 600 years after it was built... buried on purpose.. we still don't know anything about it though. All speculation.. but very interesting. I think there is still a lot more yet to be uncovered.

[Zircon]

M13, yes, that is puzzling about spending all of this time building this elaborate structure and then burying it. The meso-Americans just abandoned their sites so there must have been some importance in "reserving" this "temple".

Perhaps it was actually built before the Great Deluge and somehow their priests or learned ones "knew" something was imminent? By covering it up they hoped to protect it as best it could be protected?

Just think ... there are more sites awaiting excavation and they've barely scratched the surface of this one. Exciting times. If sites are here then they are probably at other locations as well. I wonder how far back things will ultimately be found to have been constructed. If you are young then you'll be around for a long while to keep up on all of this fantastic discovery !!!

[Mystery43]

It is a very exciting time. We haven't even begun to scratch the surface. I agree with you in that they must have known something was coming and wanted to protect the structure. Another interesting point is that archaeologists didn't find much evidence of people inhabiting the area...  Hopefully once they uncover the remaining 95% they'll have more answers. LMH's website earthfiles.com has some good pictures and info. on Gobekli Tepe if anyone is interested..

Semi young here.. 34

[Centurion40]

Turkey right? They talked about this on Ancient Aliens (can't remember which episode) and then LMH was just on Coast to Coast talking about it with GN... Can't really stand her voice so I wasn't paying close attention but it's one of the oldest sites they've found and also very strange that it was buried about 600 years after it was built... buried on purpose.. we still don't know anything about it though. All speculation.. but very interesting. I think there is still a lot more yet to be uncovered.

Yeah, this is puzzling.  We're they afraid of something, or hiding it from someone?

[Mystery43]

yeah or where they possibly thinking about the future and trying to preserve it for the next generation? I hope we find out someday..

[onan]

According to the lead archeologist of Göbekli Tepe, it may have been covered because the people of the time had no more use for it.

Yeah that leaves me pretty unsatisfied too.

I read a book by Carl Sagan many years ago. I think it was "The Dragons of Eden" in which Sagan speculated on Adam and Eve's apple or the fruit of knowledge was a metaphor for the introduction of fruits and grains in our diets. With that addition in our diets of nutrients for enhancing our mental capabilities (poorly paraphrased) leading to a less nomadic lifestyle.

That seems to be a very good fit for the speculation with Göbekli Tepe.

[Zircon]

According to the lead archeologist of Göbekli Tepe, it may have been covered because the people of the time had no more use for it.

Yeah that leaves me pretty unsatisfied too.

I read a book by Carl Sagan many years ago. I think it was "The Dragons of Eden" in which Sagan speculated on Adam and Eve's apple or the fruit of knowledge was a metaphor for the introduction of fruits and grains in our diets. With that addition in our diets of nutrients for enhancing our mental capabilities (poorly paraphrased) leading to a less nomadic lifestyle.

That seems to be a very good fit for the speculation with Göbekli Tepe.

I share the excitement of both M43 and Cent40. And yes, it is "unsatisfying" what this guy says. Still doesn't explain why it was covered up. I think these folks probably had better things to do then move huge amounts of metric tons of sand to cover up something they would regard as now "useless".

"Had no more use for it" ... how would this lead archeologist know what they were thinking. I means its not like the "owners" of these types of sites could call up a construction crew and put one of these things up in a week. A lot of time and effort went into this construction. True, they used it for centuries. So, why bother "hiding" it when it was no longer deemed useful for whatever reason?

So the "fruit" from the Tree of Knowledge (or Good and Evil, whatever) was representative of cultivation? Why then the "serpent" and fig leaves where Adam finally noticed Eve wasn't quite built like him? How is figuring out how to grow a fig or an almond considered "EVIL" (boogah boogah!)? And then we have Cain killing Able and going off and finding other people ... wooahhh !!! Where in did they come from. Weird how God gives you a brain, you use it and then you get told you're an ass hole and you're going to go to hell. I am diverging here big time I'm afraid.

[onan]

Why then the "serpent" and fig leaves where Adam finally noticed Eve wasn't quite built like him? How is figuring out how to grow a fig or an almond considered "EVIL" (boogah boogah!)?

Sagan's metaphor was somewhat complex. I do believe he did also include the serpent. The fruit of knowledge as his suggestion proposed gave us a higher level of understanding including discrimination i.e. good and bad. With that came a larger brain hence the inclusion of pain in birth. That Eden was kind of an ignorance is bliss, and now knowing forever kept us from the bliss of Eden. It was quite provocative to a less than 30 year old reader.

As to no more use of Göbekli Tepe, further investigation of other communities nearby show the development of smaller yet similar constructions. That Göbekli Tepe had helped to inculcate the spiritual so dramatically that the need to visit the original sight had lost significant value. As to why it was buried... I dunno, then again I can not honestly tell you why I pick the socks I do every morning.

[Zircon]

Sagan's metaphor was somewhat complex. I do believe he did also include the serpent. The fruit of knowledge as his suggestion proposed gave us a higher level of understanding including discrimination i.e. good and bad. With that came a larger brain hence the inclusion of pain in birth. That Eden was kind of an ignorance is bliss, and now knowing forever kept us from the bliss of Eden. It was quite provocative to a less than 30 year old reader.

As to no more use of Göbekli Tepe, further investigation of other communities nearby show the development of smaller yet similar constructions. That Göbekli Tepe had helped to inculcate the spiritual so dramatically that the need to visit the original sight had lost significant value. As to why it was buried... I dunno, then again I can not honestly tell you why I pick the socks I do every morning.

Reading your posts on this tells me you are a well informed person. Thanks for the additional information and thoughts that tie in well with the points you make. Socks? I wear flip-flops or beat up New Balance with frayed strings and a few broken string holes. I guess I like being comfortable. Rarely wear long pants. I'm a "shorts" man myself.

[Rasputin]

Gobekli Tepe is a very fancinating find, and I hope I live to see them uncover 100% of it. The question I have is not why they buried it, but how. Assuming the people of that time had no machines, I wonder how many people it took to this, and how long to move all that fill.

Also, I wonder if this site somehow ties in with that massive underground "city" that is also in Turkey, and if the builders of both sites were somehow related.

[Zircon]

Gobekli Tepe is a very fancinating find, and I hope I live to see them uncover 100% of it. The question I have is not why they buried it, but how. Assuming the people of that time had no machines, I wonder how many people it took to this, and how long to move all that fill.

Also, I wonder if this site somehow ties in with that massive underground "city" that is also in Turkey, and if the builders of both sites were somehow related.

A very interesting thought about that underground city. I was wondering if you could elaborate a bit on theories attempting to explain why they were built? Somehow I recall a coming calamity or people hiding from invading armies or something along those lines. I seriously doubt Gobekli Tepe was buried for this reason and I also feel the folks who built it weren't environmentalists concerned about preservation.

[PB the Deplorable]

Perhaps their religion failed them in some spectacular way and they decided to cover up these temple structures (if that's what they are) rather than destroy them. 

Or maybe they built them, used them for awhile, covered them over, and built more over the top - do they know what is under these things?

[Zircon]

Nope (under these things). I'm just surprised as to why they'd cover up something 9,000 BC? You'd think ... OK, this damn things isn't working for us so screw it ... and walk off.

[Rasputin]

As to why the underground city was buried, I have no clue, but whoever built it knew what they were doing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derinkuyu_Underground_City

I don't know how accurate the dating of this structure is, but if current estimates are correct, they are probably not related to Gobekli Tepe.

Getting back to GT, I remember reading somewhere that at least some researchers say the older parts of this structure have much better building techniques than the newer parts that have been uncovered. Usually, its the other way around with the older structures being more crude. Strange to say the least.

[Zircon]

Man, I'll say. It could be suggested that we did have sophisticated civilizations further back then we realize. This could throw a monkey wrench into history as we know it. Any speculations coming out on how much older the earlier ones might be?

[Rasputin]

Robert Shock and other researchers believe this site dates back some 12,500 years. I happen to believe there is some serious holes in what current history tells us about how far back civilization goes. It may be that Graham Hancock is really onto something here. I suggest reading "Fingerprints Of The Gods" that can be found here:
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/egipto/fingerprintgods/fingerprintgods.htm

Before someone dismisses this out of hand, there is nothing in this book that refers to Ancient Aliens or any other wild unfounded speculation. Its a good read, and one that might make you view the world in a whole different light with regards to what our history might really be.

Just to be clear, I'm actually open to the possibility of visitations from aliens in the past, but I have serious doubts that they came here to build walls, ancient cities, and gave us tools to build things of this nature. A quick thumb nail sketch of Mr. Hancocks book is he thinks there were at least one, and possibly several ancient civilizations from 12,000 years ago or more that were more advanced than we think, and they were connected somehow with building techniques, navigation, and lots more.

[Zircon]

I do have a copy of Fingerprints of the Gods. I believe I also heard on a TV broadcast sometime in the past that according to some star charts either the Great Pyramids or Sphinx might be as old as 30,000 BC. Do you recall something along these lines or am I getting something else confused with this?

I think even scientists are willing to give a cautious nod that at some point in our planet's past aliens may have taken a look. Now we could be talking hundreds of thousands of years ago. I wonder what we'd do if we encountered beings on a planet we landed on? I would think the prudent thing to do would be to return to the confines of your vessel ASAP.

It does make one very curious there is so much "folklore" or "mysticism" about beings from the sky. Even the Bible (Old Testament) is rather clear on non-terrestrial beings and female humans getting together. Just saying ...

[PB the Deplorable]

These Gobekli Tepe circles of cut and sculptured stones don't look at all like a first attempt at building permanent structures.  There must be earlier attempts at engineering and construction, perhaps on a smaller and more crude scale.  Either nearby or close enough that the people at GT would know of them. 

Perhaps earlier structures were made of wood or adobe and are long gone.  Maybe they were washed away by flood or mudslides and were broken up and permanently lost.  Maybe they just remain hidden for now under dirt and brush.  Possibly the earlier stonework was taken down and used for other purposes.

[ziznak]

I stand by my earlier appraisal that they were some sort of religious/clocks... The burial is vexing though.  Maybe as the religion had died they symbolically buried it as though it was a corpse.  I recall the word "def" being entombed a while back by a certain record label and producer.

[Zircon]

These Gobekli Tepe circles of cut and sculptured stones don't look at all like a first attempt at building permanent structures.  There must be earlier attempts at engineering and construction, perhaps on a smaller and more crude scale.  Either nearby or close enough that the people at GT would know of them. 

Perhaps earlier structures were made of wood or adobe and are long gone.  Maybe they were washed away by flood or mudslides and were broken up and permanently lost.  Maybe they just remain hidden for now under dirt and brush.  Possibly the earlier stonework was taken down and used for other purposes.

Those are some good ideas PB. Makes sense to me. Wood to stone seems a natural progression.

As to older parts being better built than newer ones. Might it be that the knowledge was lost with the builders moving on and leaving the existing structure only to be later found and added to by another group without the technical know-how to equal or surpass the original? Just and idea and all of us have plenty of them. We'll probably never know until we can decipher the pictographs.

It is really fantastic and it'll be great when and if they can figure out how widespread the "culture" was and where it may have originated. Chances are they originally came from the fertile crescent in Mesopotamia, the Nile region or the area around the Black Sea. Going further north than the Black Sea would have led to the vast ice shields covering Europe and the Caucasus regions.

Since the last Ice Age only went so far south and we have this elaborate and sophisticated temple at GT, it makes me wonder and really get speculative that say ... in equatorial Africa there may be temples and "communities" far older than 12,500 years. Note how this ties in to the Sphinx and possibly Pyramids being a lot older than we could ever have imagined. Just an idea and a lot of speculative extrapolation ... but thats just me. What do you guys think Steve, PB (Johnny Depp), Rasputin and Ziz???

[Rasputin]

One possible explanation of why the older structures are built better than the newer ones ties in neatly with the theory that a planet changing event happened at the end of the last ice age, and the few survivors that escaped death tried to rebuild their society. After a few generations, skills and techniques were lost in some areas like masonry and general stone sculpting, and the descendants tried to copy what was left.

As far as age of the Pyramids and Sphinx, its difficult to say, but until more data and more research comes to light that either proves or disproves more than 12,000 years or so, I think Professor Shock is closer to the mark with his assessment due to erosion by water.

I suppose its possible that an ancient culture that was further advanced than previously thought took notice of a major shift in climate, or flooding, and decided to send its best and brightest to all points of the compass in an attempt to pass on knowledge and survive. A little far fetched maybe, but this does fit nicely with the similarities on different continants with regards to engineering, stone work, and the quarrying and building of megalithic structures.

In my opinion, its a cop out to say some of our ancestors could have done this work on their own without "alien" help. If earlier humans had a thriving culture that started 30,000 years ago, its reasonable to assume that in 15,000 years plus, they could have conceivably come up with techniques that were lost to history, especially if there was a major earth changing event like a world wide flood that took place in a few days or even weeks.
I'm looking forward to the day when archaeologists can look into the supposed "chamber" that Shock discovered under the Sphinx, and see if its natural, or it contains something. That is of course if that idiot Zahi Hawass has not already done this. I'm glad that guy is gone, and will not return.

[onan]

If you read or listen to the information about Göbekli Tepe the less refined structures are the newer structures. Less energy and resources were used. Not because they were refining techniques but because the inclination for the spiritual was diverting to the areas where the people were living. At least that is how I remember it. If anyone is interested there is a natgeo special on the pirate bay.

[Zircon]

If you read or listen to the information about Göbekli Tepe the less refined structures are the newer structures. Less energy and resources were used. Not because they were refining techniques but because the inclination for the spiritual was diverting to the areas where the people were living. At least that is how I remember it. If anyone is interested there is a natgeo special on the pirate bay.

Onan, an interesting position to take, "inclination for the spiritual was diverting" since they can't decipher the glyphs I'm wondering how they came up with that one? Secondly, I think it would be a very safe assumption to make that people were "living" at the locations where the constructions were taking place and that is where they practiced their religions. So we have a "leap of faith" (so to speak) and the "obvious" with these two assertions in my opinion. It would seem the local temple would be rather close by and accessible by the population or at least the "priests". And if folks were "settling" into communities with agriculture etc. a more lasting temple would be something they'd strive for. Just look at our cities. Dispensed with tents and temporary structures for skyscrapers and paved roads in time.

Rasputin, I think any future access to the antiquities in Gaza etc. are going to be even more highly restricted as we're now dealing with the Muslim Brotherhood. Some of these twisted people want to blow up these structures so I think allowing access to westerners and infidels no less is going to be extremely difficult. Hawass will worm his way into a position of trust as he is the national "expert" in these ancient matters of national pride etc.

OK, can't recall Prof. Shock's opinion on the age of the Sphinx. Chances are his assessment is around 10,000 BC since that seems to be a magical number folks are gravitating to and corresponding to the end of the last Ice Age.

The fact that almost globally, great "mythological" teachers bestowed their knowledge upon the locals and that knowledge seemed to be astronomical and agricultural is very curious. While not impossible for everyone to come up with their own "Eureka" moments, the timing, almost worldwide simultaneously, suggests a diaspora of sorts by learned peoples to pass on their acquired knowledge to jump start peoples across the globe.

[Rasputin]

Onan, I may have the age of the newer verses the older structures of Gobekli Tepe backwards. I do remember reading, or hearing the older pillars were more refined, but I can be wrong on this.

Zircon, alot of Westerners are understandably nervous about the Muslem Brotherhood taking the Presidency in Egypt, but they are not going to go full blown Taliban style Sharia Law as  some so called "experts" would have you believe. I'm forming this opinion based on what a guy I know has been telling me and other members of another forum I belong to. He was actually living in Cario and teaching at the University there when the Mubarac regime was overthrown last year. The MB was heavily suppressed by Mubarac, but had what he calls "street credibility" with the average rank and file citizen of Egypt. They now hold the office of President, but only at the Militarys blessing, which is the only institution in that country that holds any real power.
Sharia Law based Wahabi style rule does not work in countries with a highly educated population, and Egypt has a much higher than normal literacy rate and College educated public than almost any other Muslem Nation in the region. The MB has been downplayed for well over seventy years, and now they are in the drivers seat, and whats more, they know they can't screw this up. They do have extremists among them, but I think they are a minority.
If you have ever talked with people that have actually had boots on the ground during and shortly after the shakeup over there, you find Egypt's largest industry, tourism, took a very huge hit. The archaeological projects will restart, but it does remain to be seen if they are more open under new management, but I remain hopefull. As to Zahi...he was hated by most Egyptions, and is finished with little hope of returning.

[ziznak]

I have no sources to site for this but for some reason I have firmly believed the sphinx to be much older than the pyramids.  Too much Zach Sitchin maybe?  There are a few qualified non-kooks who have stated that the sphinx was there first and I think that's why it's been ingrained so deeply for me.  There's also the water erosion/geologic evidence that I think Onan mentioned earlier in the thread. 

The main thing that boggles my mind is that we can only prove civilization back to a certain date, a date which keeps changing.  This leads me to believe that eventually we will get to a point where we can only prove back so far.  The real "beginings" will never be known. 

[Rasputin]

Ziznak, I think you might be remembering what Robert Shock said about this from a TV special that aired a few years back with Charlton Heston as the host. He backed up his claim with water erosion evidence, and another less well known fact, and that is that the head of the Sphinx is not at all in proportion to its body. This is something that is not easily dismissed either, because the Egyptians were very good at drawing, or sculpting proportional figures...kings, animals, and people in general.
The head of the Sphinx is much smaller in proportion to the lion body, and this suggests that it might have been re-carved during one of the early Dynasties.

[onan]

Onan, an interesting position to take, "inclination for the spiritual was diverting" since they can't decipher the glyphs I'm wondering how they came up with that one? Secondly, I think it would be a very safe assumption to make that people were "living" at the locations where the constructions were taking place and that is where they practiced their religions. So we have a "leap of faith" (so to speak) and the "obvious" with these two assertions in my opinion. It would seem the local temple would be rather close by and accessible by the population or at least the "priests". And if folks were "settling" into communities with agriculture etc. a more lasting temple would be something they'd strive for. Just look at our cities. Dispensed with tents and temporary structures for skyscrapers and paved roads in time.

Göbekli Tepe: The Birth of Religion
Key Excerpts from Article on Website of National Geographic

Bewilderingly, the people at Göbekli Tepe got steadily worse at temple building. The earliest rings are the biggest and most sophisticated, technically and artistically. As time went by, the pillars became smaller, simpler, and were mounted with less and less care. Finally the effort seems to have petered out altogether by 8200 B.C. Göbekli Tepe was all fall and no rise. As important as what the researchers found was what they did not find: any sign of habitation. Hundreds of people must have been required to carve and erect the pillars, but the site had no water sourceâ€"the nearest stream was about three miles away. Those workers would have needed homes, but excavations have uncovered no sign of walls, hearths, or housesâ€"no other buildings that Schmidt has interpreted as domestic. They would have had to be fed, but there is also no trace of agriculture. For that matter, Schmidt has found no mess kitchens or cooking fires. It was purely a ceremonial center. If anyone ever lived at this site, they were less its residents than its staff. To judge by the thousands of gazelle and aurochs bones found at the site, the workers seem to have been fed by constant shipments of game, brought from faraway hunts. All of this complex endeavor must have had organizers and overseers, but there is as yet no good evidence of a social hierarchyâ€"no living area reserved for richer people, no tombs filled with elite goods, no sign of some people having better diets than others.

http://www.wanttoknow.info/a-gbekli-tepe-birth-religion

[ziznak]

Ziznak, I think you might be remembering what Robert Shock said about this from a TV special that aired a few years back with Charlton Heston as the host. He backed up his claim with water erosion evidence, and another less well known fact, and that is that the head of the Sphinx is not at all in proportion to its body. This is something that is not easily dismissed either, because the Egyptians were very good at drawing, or sculpting proportional figures...kings, animals, and people in general.
The head of the Sphinx is much smaller in proportion to the lion body, and this suggests that it might have been re-carved during one of the early Dynasties.

Was this the same show that said that some flaws in the stone could be to blame for the elongated body?  All these shows blend into one after a certain point!

http://www.wanttoknow.info/a-gbekli-tepe-birth-religion

haha thats the same article i linked to in the first page but at a different site... very interesting info
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2011/06/gobekli-tepe/mann-text

[Rasputin]

Thanks for that post onan...looks like I was correct after all.

It sure is a fascinating subject, and one of the most interesting discoveries of our time. Interestingly, I checked out a National Geographic magazine last year that had a full blown story on this site, and the pictures they had showed what amounted to animal skin wearing early Paleolithic humans. From the stone work I would guess that the culture that built these was far more sophisticated.

[onan]

To answer another question regarding "inclination for the spiritual was diverting" There is a Nat Geo documentary that discusses that exact point. It shows how similar "T" shaped monoliths were found in settlements several kilometers away in communities. The "T" monoliths had the very same engraving of arms and hands in the same position. They had belts in similar locations. These "T"s were symbols for the same gods worshipped at Göbekli Tepe.