Göbekli Tepe

[onan]

Anyone read or heard anything about this?

Seems it predates all other ancient civilizations. Speculation is, it is at least 7000 years older than the pyramids.

Probably angels and a portal had a lot to do with it.

http://www.archaeology.org/0811/abstracts/turkey.html

[Evil Twin Of Zen]

eyup.


Gobekli Tepe

[onan]

eyup.

Yeah I had seen that too. It seems strange to me however that as monumental of a find as it is, not that many seem to know much about it.

That video was posted over 2 years ago and only has 35k views. Ok it isn't a guy jumping into a pile of santorum but still...

I was more interested in what others thought. It is interesting to me that not only was it  built over 12000 years ago but then buried about 9000 years ago.

I just find that interesting. well not as interestiing as someone getting kicked in the nuts mind you, but interesting.

[Evil Twin Of Zen]

i dunno. i had read about it a few years back. we know about as much as we know about any neolithic dig. it having been buried is a plus when compared to a site such as Stonehenge. the glyphs on the Stonehenge site range widely in date due to many users of the site. on the other hand, sites like those in ireland (gobs of them) are easier to date due to the glyphs being easily read.
as a side note, dating such sites can be difficult since you can't do radiocarbon dating on rock. finding enclosed organic matter can be found at the site and then compared to samples found miles from the site to establish the stratigraphic relationship of that enclosed sample. of course finding wood, bone or other material is an easier way to establish a date. as they found such samples, it would be my guess that the site's date is as good as carbon dating can be, and most certainly older than any other site to date.

all in all... very cool.

[Treading Water]

That video was posted over 2 years ago and only has 35k views. Ok it isn't a guy jumping into a pile of santorum but still...

Ahhhhhhahahahahahahahahahaha............................Yeah, I'm from PA.................hahahahahahahaha

[The General]

Awesome.  I'm fascinated by stuff like this.  I do wonder sometimes how wrong or right our ideas might be about our collective beginnings and the timeline of civilizations.  But 12000 years ago is pretty amazing.

[EvB]

I just find that interesting. well not as interestiing as someone getting kicked in the nuts mind you, but interesting.

Oh i dunno, it seems pretty interesting to me, though the "nuts" simily is much more poetic.

[Zircon]

This is a phenomenal find. Hunter gatherers couldn't have built this as they needed to apply all of their efforts to staying alive. The site is at least 12,000 years old and they've only uncovered 5% of the site. Digging further may prove that the site is even older.

[Zircon]

There is another site close by that is also a false mountain covered in gravel as was Gobekli Tepe. It is regarded as contemporary to the 12,000 year old site. Investigators also say the face on the Sphinx was of a lion and facing its own image in the constellation of Leo. That Age of Leo was also 14,000-12,000 years ago. Their conclusion is that the Sphinx is this old and contemporary to Gobekli Tepe as well.

The flash frozen mastodons we're familiar with (the ones with all their meat and flowers in their mouths) also died around this time. The ice age ended with a flare up by the sun which exhibits a 12,000 year cycle. Glaciers melted quickly (like real quick), water vapor up in the air couldn't be held forever so precipitated. Was this the Great Flood?

The nation of Turkey has the oldest sites in the world it seems as far as civilization goes. I recall reading that Jericho has been almost constantly inhabited since about 7,200 BC. Gobekli Tepe predates even this.

Also alien looking creatures giving birth to what appears to be humans and animals that are as yet unidentifiable. 

[Mind Flayer Monk]

Also alien looking creatures giving birth to what appears to be humans and animals that are as yet unidentifiable.

Wow. Were these carved on statues or columns?

[Zircon]

Wow. Were these carved on statues or columns?

There is a huge base - 30 acres in total area - with many, many columns. It is unknown how many since so little has actually been uncovered. Linda Molton Howe was with a geologist and team of investigators most with PhDs from reputible universities. About 14 years ago excavation began with some German archaeologist. Always Germans doing this stuff like Heinrich Schliemann with Troy in the late 19th century.

The glyphs are on thin columns. Lots of symbols that are undecipherable at this time. Probably never be truly literally translated as finding another Rosetta Stone (Egyptian, Greek etc.) is very unlikely. They surmise they may have been tuning fork like structures. They were covered up 1,000 years after being erected probably to coincide with having them protected when the  sun acted up to end the ice age.

Appears very "alien" in nature. And like I mentioned, there are more false mountains that are most likely hiding structures. What really amazes me is that this isn't a science fiction novel/movie or an Indiana Jones adventure - THIS IS REAL !!!

[Zircon]

Monk and I seem to be the only ones putting up anything on this so perhaps all the rest of you are already familiar with the data and have nothing to say? I am actually surprised no further comments have happened even with something close to 30 views thus far. Here is the blurb discussing this particular show on C2C ...

Over three segments, investigative reporter Linda Moulton Howe discussed the mysterious Gobekli Tepe site in Turkey, where she recently conducted field research along with Prof. of Geology, Robert M. Schoch. The excavated site, which has been carbon dated 12,000 years old, contains 30 acres of pillar circles, with around 250 pillars, each weighing 7-10 tons, she detailed. Oddly, the entire site seems to have been intentionally buried about 1,000 years after it was built, and only 5% of the pillars have been uncovered since 1994. The amount of effort to bury the site dwarfs the massive endeavor to originally build it, Schoch commented in a taped interview with Linda. He conjectured that the site's burial may have been associated with coming Ice Age climate shifts or solar outbursts.

Describing the site as looking like "an alien creation," Linda pondered whether it might have functioned as a kind of giant machine or tuning fork. She also described some of the bizarre carved creatures on the pillars, as well as eerie totem (see below). One sculpture retrieved from the site labeled "Urfa Man" has haunting black eyes depicted by crystals of obsidian, a sunken chin with no mouth whatsoever, and bears resemblance to some of the Moai heads in Easter Island, thousands of miles away. Interestingly, Schoch noted that the oldest part of the Sphinx may date to a time concurrent with the Gobekli site. For more, see the full Earthfiles reports.

[coaster]

[coaster]

Hunter gatherers couldn't have built this as they needed to apply all of their efforts to staying alive.

Eh..I disagree.

[guildnavigator]

Pics or it didn't happen.








I'm kidding, but this thread would be way cooler if there were pics.

[Zircon]

Five parts with most of the parts showing pictures with a lot of detailed commentary. At the bottom of this part it will say, "Part 2". Go for it.

http://www.earthfiles.com/news.php?ID=1984&category=Science

[Zircon]

OK, never mind my input.

[guildnavigator]

Five parts with most of the parts showing pictures with a lot of detailed commentary. At the bottom of this part it will say, "Part 2". Go for it.

http://www.earthfiles.com/news.php?ID=1984&category=Science

thanks for the link

[ziznak]

I'll admit this discovery is very intriguing and there are many things that can be speculated from the data so far BUT there is still a lot of work to be done.  I personally think that our history on earth is much more complicated and extensive than what is currently known and provable by science.  I also think there are more sites like this out there that will push the date of our first civilizations back even further.  Golbekli looks to me like some civilizations attempt to perfect a calendar or observatory type of structure.  Apparently as time went on they erected and buried many of these each time they got smaller like they weren't getting it right or something.  Maybe they were purely ceremonial and as the religion died out so did the vigor with which they built these temples.  I leave it to the archaeologists to figure out. 

I found this article much better than the somewhat biased earthfiles site:
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2011/06/gobekli-tepe/mann-text

This is very interesting stuff I wish more people would discuss... and keep up the commentary Zircon.  You get discouraged too quickly.

[Juan]

The earthfiles report does say that the site appears to be a temple of some kind - there are no kitchen facilities, so it is not a place people lived.  It is fascinating, and I, too, wondered about the ability of hunter gatherers to build it.  Perhaps the ecology of that part of Turkey at the time was such that hunting and gathering was easy.

[PB the Deplorable]

There is another site close by that is also a false mountain covered in gravel as was Gobekli Tepe. It is regarded as contemporary to the 12,000 year old site. Investigators also say the face on the Sphinx was of a lion and facing its own image in the constellation of Leo. That Age of Leo was also 14,000-12,000 years ago. Their conclusion is that the Sphinx is this old and contemporary to Gobekli Tepe as well...

We have lost much of our history, to find a site like this built thousands of years before Sumer is exciting.


We've heard any number of guests on C2C claim the Sphinx is much older than the pyrimids due to several bits of evidence (such as the apparent flooding at the base, and the re-worked head you mention).  The skeptics claim was that there was no one around 12-14,000 that could have built such a thing.  That argument is now gone.

[coaster]

I sure sounded like an ass up there when I said "eh I disagree" Sorry about that. what I meant to say was I think even as far back as 12,000 years ago people were far smarter than we give them credit for. I think civilization is far older as well. parts of the ancient alien theory rub me the wrong way.

[ziznak]

AMEN!

[onan]

I think this may help explain ancient building techniques.

http://www.disclose.tv/action/viewvideo/11409/Man_moves_huge_blocks_without_tools___today___/

[Zircon]

It is truly fantastic that this site was uncovered - only 5% thus far. Chances are is was built upon previous structures much like Schliemann found when uncovering Troy.

Onan, I'd like to see anyone explain how blocks weighing 20-50 tons could be moved up mountains in the Andes with no wheels and a population much less numerous than today's. When did these folks have time to grow food, eat and sleep?

It would seem that if a civilization is so advanced to get all of this archeo-astronomy stuff down pat with mathematical precision, they'd have figured out that it is easier to move something on a circle since they were obviously aware of the concept on an astronomical basis.

Have you read any Michael Cremo? Graham Handcock and his collaborators with the structures in Egypt?

[onan]

It is truly fantastic that this site was uncovered - only 5% thus far. Chances are is was built upon previous structures much like Schliemann found when uncovering Troy.

Onan, I'd like to see anyone explain how blocks weighing 20-50 tons could be moved up mountains in the Andes with no wheels and a population much less numerous than today's. When did these folks have time to grow food, eat and sleep?

It would seem that if a civilization is so advanced to get all of this archeo-astronomy stuff down pat with mathematical precision, they'd have figured out that it is easier to move something on a circle since they were obviously aware of the concept on an astronomical basis.

Have you read any Michael Cremo? Graham Handcock and his collaborators with the structures in Egypt?

No I haven't. I have heard him on C2C but it was some time ago. I do know that the criticisms of his works are specific to his cherry picking data and making unsubstantiated claims on top of prior unsubstantiated clams. So most likely some academic arrogance on my part.

I am a die hard Occam's Razor fan. And just because we generally do not know specifics of past events does not lead me to extraordinary explanations. Although it is much fun to ponder the fantastical.

[Zircon]

No I haven't. I have heard him on C2C but it was some time ago. I do know that the criticisms of his works are specific to his cherry picking data and making unsubstantiated claims on top of prior unsubstantiated clams. So most likely some academic arrogance on my part.

I am a die hard Occam's Razor fan. And just because we generally do not know specifics of past events does not lead me to extraordinary explanations. Although it is much fun to ponder the fantastical.

I too find much of Cremo's suggestions to be major stretches. Like modern humans on earth hundred of millions of years ago. That is unless we're a race of manufactured beings. And our original mold was what we woudl recognize as a human being. But still, that time stretch is ridiculous. There would be some general accepted evidence of human fossils far older than what we've found thus far and clearly "modern" in structure.

Applying Ocam's Razor is all well and good but it does require that one apply all other possible choices to answering a question such as this before assuming the least complicated and most straight forward. We would have stopped the study of physics with the basic atomic structure and Newton's basic laws if we had stuck to accepting the "obvious". Einstein would have been booked on George Norry and we'd be calling him a new age moron.

Yes, we know what wheels are and what laser manufacturing is. To think these people didn't bother to improve the extremely laborious methods to move massive weight seems a bit absurd. If nothing else, they had a wheel and applied lever and pulleys to get this done. Also, to expect the precision in their cuts to be repeatable and damned near perfect would suggest, to me at least, a society that knew how to efficiently move mass other than with sweating and grunts and broken backs. Geez! Onan, we have to employ some sophisticated machinery to do the same thing today - 12,000+ years after these constructions. I am not saying an alien did it.

[onan]

Applying Ocam's Razor is all well and good but it does require that one apply all other possible choices to answering a question such as this before assuming the least complicated and most straight forward. We would have stopped the study of physics with the basic atomic structure and Newton's basic laws if we had stuck to accepting the "obvious". Einstein would have been booked on George Norry and we'd be calling him a new age moron.

I don't think that is true. I am not a physicist but I am pretty sure that there were some pretty insightful questions that kept brimming up secondary to Newton and Einstein. Einstein himself wasn't satisfied with his theories.

All that being said there (imo) are much more realistic solutions to the development Machu Picchu. We as a society are slaves to technology. It is amazing what one can do with just a plumb-bob. I am sure you are aware of the anecdote of NASA being tasked with finding a pen that would write in zero gravity. NASA spent thousands of dollars coming up with a pen while the soviets simply used a pencil.

I am willing to consider many different points of view on our ancient history but space aliens isn't one of them. As much fun as it is to play with the idea. Perhaps if there were some advanced tech that had been left behind, but without that I am very doubtful.

[Juan]

It would seem that if a civilization is so advanced to get all of this archeo-astronomy stuff down pat with mathematical precision, they'd have figured out that it is easier to move something on a circle since they were obviously aware of the concept on an astronomical basis.

It's my understanding that the wheel was unknown in the Americas because there was no beast of burden - no horses, no oxen - and that sleds of various types are easier to pull by humans.  Again, I'm not a physicist.

[ziznak]

Yes well we all have our "understandings" about history but bottom line, we weren't there so it's all educational speculation.  I can't say that I know what humans had and when but I'm totally sure that human history on planet earth as we know it is limited by what we can scientifically prove.  That being said,  I think there are whole chapters of human history that we don't even know about.  Gobekli is just another find that's going to change that liquid date of when "civilization" truely began.  It won't be the last.