President Donald J. Trump

[Dr. MD MD]

No, I like the woods. Each morning I get to look at deer grazing around instead of liberals filing into Starbuck's for a blond roast.

I'm aware of the book. The problem is that I consider anyone that claims to know anything about God to be engaging in a delusion or is an outright liar. This includes atheists, which definitively say one doesn't exist, and religionists which definitively say one does. Neither actually knows, but it does remain possible that some sort of god, or a computer programmer, does in fact exist and created the universe. That possibility is responsible for why I remain an agnostic.

As a result, books like that don't really attract me. I can neither connect with the atheist, which tend to be the most preachy fuckers on earth somehow, nor the confused quasi/former/whatever ex-Muslim that's trying to figure shit out.

Personally, I feel that religion has no future. The more technologically advanced human civilization becomes, the less sense ancient superstitions will make. You do not need an afterlife when you can download yourself into a computer and become, for all intents and purposes, immortal. What is a soul when computers pass the Turing test? What does humanity and the universe matter if you can run off and live in virtual reality? The list goes on.

That said, I don't really care if people engage in collective delusions like religion so long as they don't hurt anyone else. Believe whatever you want. But don't use it as an excuse to beat your wife. Or ram a plane into a building. An unacceptably large swath of Islam fails in this regard.

Preach it, bro! 

I find this the most intellectually honest position too. However, I remain fascinated with how something as counter-intuitive as turning the other cheek and trying to love each other is to an inherently selfish, top predator type species would have such a pervasive and lasting influence throughout the world. Given our nature you'd think religions like Islam would be the norm. It's potentially miraculous and at the very least highly unlikely. A cognitive psychologist would say that impulse control is essential to the development of logic and higher learning so perhaps it did represent mindset necessary to our spiritual (intellectual) evolution.

[Richard Groyper]

Preach it, bro! 

I find this the most intellectually honest position too. However, I remain fascinated with how something as counter-intuitive as turning the other cheek and trying to love each other is to an inherently selfish, top predator type species would have such a pervasive and lasting influence throughout the world. Given our nature you'd think religions like Islam would be the norm. It's potentially miraculous and at the very least highly unlikely. A cognitive psychologist would say that impulse control is essential to the development of logic and higher learning so perhaps it did represent mindset necessary to our spiritual (intellectual) evolution.

I believe the earth is flat. Put that in your pipe and smoke it!

[Dr. MD MD]

I believe the earth is flat. Put that in your pipe and smoke it!

I tried but it doesn't burn well and smells kinda funky too...and not in a good way. I'm switching back to weed! 

[Kidnostad3]

On a lighter note, I thought Trump's revisionist version of the Harley Davidson 80's story was fun. Its fun because my biking time was the 80's and 90's and I used to buy motorbike magazines and remember the period quite well. HD didn't get fucked because Japanese motorbikes were dumped at below cost price on the USA. HD were fucked because their product was shit. I had a friend in the 90's with a 70's Electraglde that leaked like the Exxon Valdez. He was a mechanical engineer and couldn't completely stop it leaking, and carried a drip tray in the bag. The tarrifs put on such as Honda was circumvented by Honda opening a plant in California to build (at frst), the Goldwing.

Trump: Alternative facts number 75.

Harley's did  indeed suck when they were owned by AMF.  There was a quantum improvement when employees bought the company.  What does that tell you?

[SciFiAuthor]

Preach it, bro! 

I find this the most intellectually honest position too. However, I remain fascinated with how something as counter-intuitive as turning the other cheek and trying to love each other is to an inherently selfish, top predator type species would have such a pervasive and lasting influence throughout the world.

Yeah, credit where credit is due. In the sense of philosophy, the idea of unconditional love and turning the other cheek is remarkable. I would extend that beyond Christianity however and give kudos to Buddhism as well. But, the unfortunate thing is that I suspect they were formulated originally as responses to the seething pit of carnage and horror that creation is. In a universe where the lowest common denominator is that you must murder other things to eat as a hard and fast rule, it's helpful to focus on love and an idealized perfect afterlife while living a life in ancient times where a large percentage of your kids won't survive infancy and at any moment you could contract one of God's wonderful genius creations like the plague, syphillis or cholera and meet a horrible death. Or get sent off to war and take an arrow for some king that says God chose him for the throne.

Given our nature you'd think religions like Islam would be the norm. It's potentially miraculous and at the very least highly unlikely. A cognitive psychologist would say that impulse control is essential to the development of logic and higher learning so perhaps it did represent mindset necessary to our spiritual (intellectual) evolution.

Historically, they sort of are the norm and usually end up co-opted for some kind of hate if it isn't built in. God always hates someone whether it's homosexuals or infidels or heretics who believe something one percent different than you do. And in the rare cases where God doesn't request some sort of hate, he still commands that we go forth and murder a cow or an onion or something and savagely consume it to survive. I find this whole creation bullshit unethical as hell and if there is a God, then Valhalla I am coming and filing a lawsuit when lung cancer or god knows what finally offs me.

Yes, I said it. When I die, I'm suing the almighty for malpractice.

[Kidnostad3]

Preach it, bro! 

I find this the most intellectually honest position too. However, I remain fascinated with how something as counter-intuitive as turning the other cheek and trying to love each other is to an inherently selfish, top predator type species would have such a pervasive and lasting influence throughout the world. Given our nature you'd think religions like Islam would be the norm. It's potentially miraculous and at the very least highly unlikely. A cognitive psychologist would say that impulse control is essential to the development of logic and higher learning so perhaps it did represent mindset necessary to our spiritual (intellectual) evolution.

You're smack on dude!  A tribe must win the battle for hunting grounds and water holes in order to survive to reach the point where it has the luxury of turning the other cheek.  We are presently in a clash of cultures that will result in one being dominant.  It boils down to who do you want to be dominant and before you say it, no there is no middle ground.  Islam demands world dominance.  Why is this so hard for some to understand?

[Richard Groyper]

You're smack on dude!  A tribe must win the battle for hunting grounds and water holes in order to survive to reach the point where it has the luxury of turning the other cheek.  We are presently in a clash of cultures that will result in one being dominant.  It boils down to who do you want to be dominant and before you say it, no there is no middle ground.  Islam demands world dominance.  Why is this so hard for some to understand.

Tribalism + Ideology ÷ religion x 1.2 billion = illiterate child molesting warlord prophet

[aldousburbank]

I will be passing through Berkeley later today. Thinking I should smash a Starbucks window or two because to support muh freedom.

[Richard Groyper]

I will be passing through Berkeley later today. Thinking I should smash a Starbucks window or two because to support muh freedom.

[Kidnostad3]

I will be passing through Berkeley later today. Thinking I should smash a Starbucks window or two because to support muh freedom.

Right on dude!  Abuse a barrista for me will ya.  Take away his plush toy and coloring book.  That'll fix his ass.

[Dr. MD MD]

Yeah, credit where credit is due. In the sense of philosophy, the idea of unconditional love and turning the other cheek is remarkable. I would extend that beyond Christianity however and give kudos to Buddhism as well. But, the unfortunate thing is that I suspect they were formulated originally as responses to the seething pit of carnage and horror that creation is. In a universe where the lowest common denominator is that you must murder other things to eat as a hard and fast rule, it's helpful to focus on love and an idealized perfect afterlife while living a life in ancient times where a large percentage of your kids won't survive infancy and at any moment you could contract one of God's wonderful genius creations like the plague, syphillis or cholera and meet a horrible death. Or get sent off to war and take an arrow for some king that says God chose him for the throne.

Historically, they sort of are the norm and usually end up co-opted for some kind of hate if it isn't built in. God always hates someone whether it's homosexuals or infidels or heretics who believe something one percent different than you do. And in the rare cases where God doesn't request some sort of hate, he still commands that we go forth and murder a cow or an onion or something and savagely consume it to survive. I find this whole creation bullshit unethical as hell and if there is a God, then Valhalla I am coming and filing a lawsuit when lung cancer or god knows what finally offs me.

Yes, I said it. When I die, I'm suing the almighty for malpractice.

The God of Judaism can be pretty fucked up backward too. Islam draws heavily from it and, in some ways, seeks to detour humanity back to this older, more brutal order. I may not ultimately believe in the metaphysics of Christianity (or any religion) but if there's a holy war going on I guess I'd rather see Christianity win just because I think it represents our social grappling with our intellectual development, without which we wouldn't have science. Though, like you, I find Buddhism more personally fulfilling but it's an inherently inward looking religion.

[Yorkshire pud]

Harley's did  indeed suck when they were owned by AMF.  There was a quantum improvement when employees bought the company.  What does that tell you?

It tells me that Trump was still altering reality. But its fine, Trumpspeak is the truth. Marx would have been proud; the workers in control of the means of production. 

[Yorkshire pud]

Never forget the Bowling Green Massacree with full orchestration and five-part harmony and stuff like that, and other Phenomenon.

I know where I was when that took place. I was feeding my pet unicorns, and they danced in the magic glade. Phenomenal.

[SciFiAuthor]

The God of Judaism can be pretty fucked up backward too. Islam draws heavily from it and, in some ways, seeks to detour humanity back to this older, more brutal order.

The God of Judaism, in so far as I can tell, was just out to fuck with people and play mind games over what you're supposed to sacrifice to him and how. I think Jesus knew that and sought to tone down God's insane sociopathy a bit, though ultimately everything went pear shaped when people started wondering where they were supposed to stick their wangs, or not. Muhammad went the opposite way and embraced the sociopathy but only allowed a small group to engage in it.

I may not ultimately believe in the metaphysics of Christianity (or any religion) but if there's a holy war going on I guess I'd rather see Christianity win just because I think it represents our social grappling with our intellectual development, without which we wouldn't have science.

I agree. Christianity civilized itself, for the most part, in a dualistic forging and reform part and parcel with the development of Western thought. I don't have a problem with that and I'll take its dominance over Islam any day. I'll even applaud it, the Catholics have given us some amazing artwork and philosophy, and who could say that the music of the Russian Orthodox Church is anything less than amazing. But when it comes to actually believing it, I can't do it both as a matter of conscience and rationality. I am not merely ambivalent towards the idea of a god, I question his ethics if he exists. If God were a man, he would be promptly locked up for the good of society. And, at the same time, I do admit that he could exist.

Though, like you, I find Buddhism more personally fulfilling but it's an inherently inward looking religion.

It is, and some of it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever anymore, it's just too ancient for its own good much like Judaism or Hinduism, but it's got some nice sentiments. 

[SciFiAuthor]

I see Trump and Swarzenegger are fighting. It's probably just fake and intended to bump The Apprentice's ratings, but it is the first time that I will criticize Trump. He should leave it alone and focus on his new job. He is no longer a celebrity, he's a president.

[SciFiAuthor]

I was feeding my pet unicorns, and they danced in the magic glade.

Only in Yorkshire.

[Dr. MD MD]

The God of Judaism, in so far as I can tell, was just out to fuck with people and play mind games over what you're supposed to sacrifice to him. I think Jesus knew that and sought to tone down God's insane sociopathy a bit. Muhammad went the opposite way and embraced it.

I agree. Christianity civilized itself, for the most part, in a dualistic forging and reform part and parcel with the development of Western thought. I don't have a problem with that and I'll take its dominance over Islam any day. I'll even applaud it, the Catholics have given us some amazing artwork and philosophy, and who could say that the music of the Russian Orthodox Church is anything less than amazing. But when it comes to actually believing it, I can't do it both as a matter of conscience and rationality. I am not merely ambivalent towards the idea of a god, I question his ethics if he exists. If God were a man, he would be promptly locked up for the good of society. And, at the same time, I do admit that he could exist.

It is, and some of it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever anymore, it's just too ancient for its own good much like Judaism or Hinduism, but it's got some nice sentiments.

When I said "fucked up backward" perhaps it was going too far because what I really think is that religions like Judaism and Islam represent an earlier stage of our intellectual development. The God of the Old Testament and the Koran treat humanity like children: Don't question, just believe or you'll be punished. Submit your intellect to him and you'll be rewarded. Follow the set of morally prescribed edicts and a few simple stories to illustrate why. The God of Christianity treats humanity like adolescents awaking to reason and starting to ask bigger, more complex questions. Whether a religion of the fully grown adult will ever evolve out of what remains when the dust settles or whether religion itself will become like a vestige of our psychological development, who knows?

[Yorkshire pud]

I see Trump and Swarzenegger are fighting. It's probably just fake and intended to bump The Apprentice's ratings, but it is the first time that I will criticize Trump. He should leave it alone and focus on his new job. He is no longer a celebrity, he's a president.

Are you serious? Ratings mean everything. Trump thinks so anyway.

[norland2424]

I see Trump and Swarzenegger are fighting. It's probably just fake and intended to bump The Apprentice's ratings, but it is the first time that I will criticize Trump. He should leave it alone and focus on his new job. He is no longer a celebrity, he's a president.

ill admit i haven't really paid to much attention to pres trump before the election, but has he always been religious ?

[Yorkshire pud]

Only in Yorkshire.

25% of Americans think unicorns existed. Only a few In Yorkshire think that. I have two pet ones. But anyway, get with the programme with the Bowling Green massacre, birthday party, love fest thing.

[SciFiAuthor]

Whether a religion of the fully grown adult will ever evolve out of what remains when the dust settles or whether religion itself will become like a vestige of our psychological development, who knows?

I think ultimately a new religion of sorts will indeed arise. When you look at things like Bostrum's simulation argument, you start to realize that Fred Hoyle was onto something when he said that the universe looked like a big put up job. Einstein and Spinoza knew it too, at it's most basic level there's a good chance that the universe was created and is not here just by chance. That idea may well be scientifically testable, and if it's ever proven then we'll know. But whomever created it is neither worthy of worship, nor any attention at all.

[SciFiAuthor]

25% of Americans think unicorns existed. Only a few In Yorkshire think that. I have two pet ones. But anyway, get with the programme with the Bowling Green massacre, birthday party, love fest thing.

Fuck yeah they existed. But they're extinct and that, Yorkie, is where we differ ...

[SciFiAuthor]

ill admit i haven't really paid to much attention to pres trump before the election, but has he always been religious ?

No, that's recent and designed to work the evangelicals. For some reason, that's what you do as president but in the end I don't think there's been a devoutly religious president in office in many decades. Maybe Reagan was a believer, but I can't see Clinton, Bush or Obama giving a shit behind closed doors.

[Kidnostad3]

The God of Judaism, in so far as I can tell, was just out to fuck with people and play mind games over what you're supposed to sacrifice to him and how. I think Jesus knew that and sought to tone down God's insane sociopathy a bit, though ultimately everything went pear shaped when people started wondering where they were supposed to stick their wangs, or not. Muhammad went the opposite way and embraced the sociopathy but only allowed a small group to engage in it.

I agree. Christianity civilized itself, for the most part, in a dualistic forging and reform part and parcel with the development of Western thought. I don't have a problem with that and I'll take its dominance over Islam any day. I'll even applaud it, the Catholics have given us some amazing artwork and philosophy, and who could say that the music of the Russian Orthodox Church is anything less than amazing. But when it comes to actually believing it, I can't do it both as a matter of conscience and rationality. I am not merely ambivalent towards the idea of a god, I question his ethics if he exists. If God were a man, he would be promptly locked up for the good of society. And, at the same time, I do admit that he could exist.

It is, and some of it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever anymore, it's just too ancient for its own good much like Judaism or Hinduism, but it's got some nice sentiments.

You of course know that Buddhism is silent on the question of there being a God as per the commonly understood definition.  What I believe is that people pretty much roll their own in their vision of God and that there are "dimensions beyond" as has pretty much been proven by quantum physics. I don't believe in the God(s) of the worlds religions but I would never be so arrogant as to deny the possibility of their being an intelligent force in the Universe.  This Force is pretty much hands-off in his relations with humans but is capable of intervention.

[norland2424]

No, that's recent and designed to work the evangelicals. For some reason, that's what you do as president but in the end I don't think there's been a devoutly religious president in office in many decades. Maybe Reagan was a believer, but I can't see Clinton, Bush or Obama giving a shit behind closed doors.

yea that's what i had assumed and i do agree Reagan was probably the last pres that did believe.

[SciFiAuthor]

I don't believe in the God(s) of the worlds religions but I would never be so arrogant as to deny the possibility of their being an intelligent force in the Universe.  This Force is pretty much hands-off in his relations with humans but is capable of intervention.

Yeah, we're definitely on the same agnostic page on this one. My sense is similar; whoever it is is hands off, but could easily unplug the whole thing if he so wished.

[SciFiAuthor]

yea that's what i had assumed and i do agree Reagan was probably the last pres that did believe.

I think he was. But before him, I can't see Kennedy, Johnson, or Carter as believers. Maybe Gerry Ford and Eisenhower. Who the hell knows what Nixon believed, I think he may have thought he was god. Or a magical unicorn. Or, if I may risk it and get called out by our mutual friend, Cthulhu.

[Kidnostad3]

Yeah, we're definitely on the same agnostic page on this one. My sense is similar; whoever it is is hands off, but could easily unplug the whole thing if he so wished.

Amen.  Religion provides people with a way to understand the unexplainable.  At it's best it elevates people spiritually.  At its worst it's used to exert power, control and dominion over others.  Ever read Joseph Campbell?

[norland2424]

I think he was. But before him, I can't see Kennedy, Johnson, or Carter as believers. Maybe Gerry Ford and Eisenhower. Who the hell knows what Nixon believed, I think he may have thought he was god. Or a magical unicorn. Or, if I may risk it and get called out by our mutual friend, Cthulhu.

it seems carter has been the most religious so far

"Jimmy Carter is a devout evangelical, born-again Southern Baptist, and possibly the most religious U.S. president ever.

Carter is often described as the most religious man to grace the office of the presidency. He was raised a Southern Baptist attends church everywhere he travels, teaches Sunday school, prays every day, performed missionary work as an adult the list goes on."

[Yorkshire pud]

Fuck yeah they existed. But they're extinct and that, Yorkie, is where we differ ...

Extinct in the USA. They're a protected species in the UK.