Health comparisons around the world

[West of the Rockies]

I agree with this. I also think that a single payer plan would go much further in fixing our medical problems than the mess we received. And all the politicians are guilty of giving us a plan that is far too complicated and far too beholden to the insurance companies.

That being said the course we were on was unsustainable.

I agree, Onan.  But once again, we have a familiar dynamic:  some are calling YP's source crap.  No evidence will convince them otherwise.  Someone else will post a link to a Drudge story or Infowars, and call it absolutely impeccable journalism.

Rinse and repeat ad nauseum.

[pate]

And all the politicians are guilty of giving us a plan that is far too complicated and far too beholden to the insurance companies.

http://heartland.org/policy-documents/vote-results-house-passes-obamacare

The final vote tally for the Senate version of President Obama's health care reform legislation in the House was 219-212, with 34 Democrats joining all Republicans in opposition.

Not all of them...

(still looking for a link to the Senate vote tally breakdown by party, as I recall, it was the same sort of party split...)

[onan]

http://heartland.org/policy-documents/vote-results-house-passes-obamacare

Not all of them...

(still looking for a link to the Senate vote tally breakdown by party, as I recall, it was the same sort of party split...)

In the over all, most of the politicians were too gutless to fight for a single payer plan. A plan that most US citizens looked at favorably.

[albrecht]

Here is an idea. Show me stats that show the converse.

Not that anyone wants to actually do any research:


http://www.citizen.org/documents/npdb-report-2012.pdf
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-belk/medical-malpractice-costs_b_4171189.html

You guys can dance all day long. You can get all huffy as well. The US has by most metrics the best emergent care. In cancer, breast cancer survivability is better in the US. In almost all other areas we are shamefully poor.

It is not just the judgements though. It is the costs. The cost to buy medical malpractice insurance is very high because even if the risk is relatively low if you do make a mistake (or some uneducated jurors decide you did) it can cost millions. Now, sometimes, you can get a hospital to pay but often it is paid by the doctor themselves. And the hospitals also need to pay vast premiums or self-insure. In most European countries they don't need to have those expenses, but also their salaries are lower (in general.)

And you don't address the health cost of illegal immigrants and their "dreamers." You think all "those people doing the jobs Americans won't do" buy health insurance or insure their brood. Nope. The go to the ER and then don't pay the bill. And what about the costs of their lawsuits? In some counties down here there are more "abogados" looking to sue doctors, than doctors. And illegals can, and do, sue and have access to the courts despite their illegal status. You think those illegals when they get into car accidents have insurance (or the cash) to settle claims for damaged vehicles and lives? Nope. So we cover that cost also and need to buy "uninsured motorist insurance."

Having said that I stick with my argument that it is the sedentary lifestyle and fast food (especially soft-drinks) and the importation of unhealthy, poor people that causes the US to rank low on health indices.

[onan]

It is not just the judgements though. It is the costs. The cost to buy medical malpractice insurance is very high because even if the risk is relatively low if you do make a mistake (or some uneducated jurors decide you did) it can cost millions. Now, sometimes, you can get a hospital to pay but often it is paid by the doctor themselves. And the hospitals also need to pay vast premiums or self-insure. In most European countries they don't need to have those expenses, but also their salaries are lower (in general.)

And you don't address the health cost of illegal immigrants and their "dreamers." You think all "those people doing the jobs Americans won't do" buy health insurance or insure their brood. Nope. The go to the ER and then don't pay the bill. And what about the costs of their lawsuits? In some counties down here there are more "abogados" looking to sue doctors, than doctors. And illegals can, and do, sue and have access to the courts despite their illegal status. You think those illegals when they get into car accidents have insurance (or the cash) to settle claims for damaged vehicles and lives? Nope. So we cover that cost also and need to buy "uninsured motorist insurance."

Having said that I stick with my argument that it is the sedentary lifestyle and fast food (especially soft-drinks) and the importation of unhealthy, poor people that causes the US to rank low on health indices.

You can hold onto anything you want to. You can blame whomever you choose.

The number of hospitals that handle illegals is a drop in the bucket to the number of hospitals in this country. But if that is your line in the sand...

Sedentary lifestyles, you are on to something there:

In narrowing the blame to the American health care system, the researchers first eliminated several other factors. Obesity and smoking are the most important behavior-related causes of death, but obesity increased more slowly in the United States than in the other countries and smoking declined more rapidly, so neither can explain the differences in survival rates. Homicide and traffic fatality rates have remained steady over time, and social, economic and educational factors do not vary greatly among these countries.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/30/health/30life.html?_r=0

[Quick Karl]

So, we should have single payer because, Washington, Wall Street, and GE, refuse to do anything about the border...

Awesome logic!

The ONLY people that want Single Payer - are people that want OTHER PEOPLE to pay for their health costs, most of which arises from their sedentary or otherwise self-destructive lifestyle, or rank greed in the case of the people that CAN afford their care, but incessantly chuff it off on their neighbors at every chance.

You know, if people wanted help with the costs of their health care, even if they were fat slobs that ate ice-cream at every meal while concurrently huffing 3-packs of Winston's a day, the least they could do would be to be humble and appreciative about it.

Shouldda nuked Woodstock when they had the chance...

[onan]

http://prospect.org/article/doctors-revolt

[albrecht]

http://prospect.org/article/doctors-revolt

Actually, I tend to agree with them. I would go for a single-payer system with some stipulations. The allowance of private/charity hospitals and doctors for those with money or for companies to pay for as a way to attract employees. That the health care system doesn't cover elective or bizarre non-life threatening stuff (oddball sex changes, tattoo removal, cosmetic surgery unless due to accident, abortions in cases that aren't rape or incest, etc.) My only issue with it, really, is I don't the politicians having a data-base of all our private health history and eliminating doctor-patient privilege and the possible political blackmail and data theft aspect. And there will be public calls to "force" healthy habits onto people because "we are all paying for it" literally. Also, questions in the administration of the system which would be huge and subject also to government inefficiencies and fraud. But the insurance companies are one of the main evils because they make money from all sides of the system: insure doctors, insure patients, insure nurses, insure lawyers that sue doctors, etc.

Having said that it would help our businesses complete because they wouldn't have to pay for employee heath care and all the paperwork in HR. We get real tort reform. And we remove the illegals from the country, including "dreamers", and secure the border. They can re-apply for entry into the USA based on their income, wealth, education, or particular skills. And are screened for disease and criminal record first. We don't need to over burden an already stressed system by importing more problems and free-loaders.

[Quick Karl]

Actually, I tend to agree with them. I would go for a single-payer system with some stipulations. The allowance of private/charity hospitals and doctors for those with money or for companies to pay for as a way to attract employees. That the health care system doesn't cover elective or bizarre non-life threatening stuff (oddball sex changes, tattoo removal, cosmetic surgery unless due to accident, abortions in cases that aren't rape or incest, etc.) My only issue with it, really, is I don't the politicians having a data-base of all our private health history and eliminating doctor-patient privilege and the possible political blackmail and data theft aspect. And there will be public calls to "force" healthy habits onto people because "we are all paying for it" literally. Also, questions in the administration of the system which would be huge and subject also to government inefficiencies and fraud. But the insurance companies are one of the main evils because they make money from all sides of the system: insure doctors, insure patients, insure nurses, insure lawyers that sue doctors, etc.

Having said that it would help our businesses complete because they wouldn't have to pay for employee heath care and all the paperwork in HR. We get real tort reform. And we remove the illegals from the country, including "dreamers", and secure the border. They can re-apply for entry into the USA based on their income, wealth, education, or particular skills. And are screened for disease and criminal record first. We don't need to over burden an already stressed system by importing more problems and free-loaders.

IF they did it the way you describe, it would be worth trying, but, they will NEVER do it the way you describe - not in 500-billion years. The people behind this are flat-out incapable of reason - it is all about power and control, period.

[albrecht]

IF they did it the way you describe, it would be worth trying, but, they will NEVER do it the way you describe - not in 500-billion years. The people behind this are flat-out incapable of reason - it is all about power and control, period.

I'm afraid you are correct. A nice form of socialism can work in small communities and places with homogeneous communities with shared values and culture (so that free-loading is shamed and corruption will shun you or convict you.) But in a country as large as the USA and so diverse and especially with an open-border and leadership hell-bent on destroying (sorry, "fundamentally transforming") the country it will not work even just with a socialized, single-payer healthcare system. The Dutch, Danes, Swedes, etc have already learnt what unfettered immigration (and even open EU movement) has done to their social systems.

And of course, like with gun control, the ACA is not about healthcare but simply about control. Most importantly integrating all the personal healthcare information, eliminating doctor-patient confidentiality and effectively HIPPA, and healthcare history along with your financial transactions database into the government data-mining systems to be on alert for "threats" or for bureaucrats and politicians to use for political blackmail, selective prosecution, and elimination of dissent.

[Quick Karl]

I'm afraid you are correct. A nice form of socialism can work in small communities and places with homogeneous communities with shared values and culture (so that free-loading is shamed and corruption will shun you or convict you.) But in a country as large as the USA and so diverse and especially with an open-border and leadership hell-bent on destroying (sorry, "fundamentally transforming") the country it will not work even just with a socialized, single-payer healthcare system. The Dutch, Danes, Swedes, etc have already learnt what unfettered immigration (and even open EU movement) has done to their social systems.

And of course, like with gun control, the ACA is not about healthcare but simply about control. Most importantly integrating all the personal healthcare information, eliminating doctor-patient confidentiality and effectively HIPPA, and healthcare history along with your financial transactions database into the government data-mining systems to be on alert for "threats" or for bureaucrats and politicians to use for political blackmail, selective prosecution, and elimination of dissent.

All these single payer proponents quote cooked stats from predominantly homogenous countries that are the size of medium US States. Lets let EACH STATE decide then other States can adopt what is working best....

No progressive mental case will ever agree to that!

[onan]

This started out over health comparisons. And no one has shown any facts to disprove the assertion. You do cry a great deal however.

[albrecht]

This started out over health comparisons. And no one has shown any facts to disprove the assertion. You do cry a great deal however.

Everything I've mentioned, including in an ideal world a single-payer system, was to do with healthcare and health comparison. Health, overall as a nation, does not exist in a vacuum. There are many factors involved from individual choices, government rules and regulations, health management and funding, and immigration policies.

[onan]

Everything I've mentioned, including in an ideal world a single-payer system, was to do with healthcare and health comparison. Health, overall as a nation, does not exist in a vacuum. There are many factors involved from individual choices, government rules and regulations, health management and funding, and immigration policies.

No one else is in a vacuum either.

[TheMan WhoFell ToEarth]

I agree, Onan.  But once again, we have a familiar dynamic:  some are calling YP's source crap.  No evidence will convince them otherwise.  Someone else will post a link to a Drudge story or Infowars, and call it absolutely impeccable journalism.

Rinse and repeat ad nauseum.

You have to love the virulent strain of self harm in our voting population.

[Quick Karl]

This started out over health comparisons. And no one has shown any facts to disprove the assertion. You do cry a great deal however.

You haven't shown any facts either - you've shown opinions. Morons think they are facts.

[The General]

All these single payer proponents quote cooked stats from predominantly homogenous countries that are the size of medium US States. Lets let EACH STATE decide then other States can adopt what is working best....

Oh, I wish!
That's how it was originally designed. 
Shame we let that slip away and now are subjects to an out of control federal bureaucracy. 

Your posts are filled with the ring of truth, brother. 
Illigitimi non-carborundum.

[TheMan WhoFell ToEarth]

You haven't shown any facts either - you've shown opinions. Morons think they are facts.

If I've read the thread correctly, and I believe I have, both he and YP posted literal walls of information on the first page of the thread.  Are you sure you've read the thread correctly?

[pate]

I apparently have a penchant for maps...

I found this one, it sort of shows it all in a global pershpective ...  I did find some other "US ranks last in health care" type lists that had anywhere from 10-19 countries represented... (this one apparently stacks the US against a world of 11 whole countries!  Amahzing!)

That said here's one I found that might interest people:

http://apps.who.int/nha/database/World_Map/Index/en?id=REPORT_4_WORLD_MAPS&mapType=3&ws=0

And 'nother thing, I found a link that seems to be the original report referenced in the Yayhoo article at the start of this awesome thread:

http://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/fund-reports/2014/jun/mirror-mirror

The full title of the report is: ""Mirror, Mirror on the Wall, 2014 Update: How the U.S. Health Care System Compares Internationally""

Talk about an impartial report, don't think they had any specific target in mind there do you?

[Quick Karl]

If I've read the thread correctly, and I believe I have, both he and YP posted literal walls of information on the first page of the thread.  Are you sure you've read the thread correctly?

A "fact" and "information" are NOT one in the same.

If you believe that just because some journalist published an opinion piece, that makes it a fact, well then, you are an example of why were are fucked as a country, and how someone like Obama could get elected.

You all cried about Bush, and you elected someone even more dishonest, and, you're proud of it!

[Yorkshire pud]

I apparently have a penchant for maps...

I found this one, it sort of shows it all in a global pershpective ...  I did find some other "US ranks last in health care" type lists that had anywhere from 10-19 countries represented... (this one apparently stacks the US against a world of 11 whole countries!  Amahzing!)

That said here's one I found that might interest people:

http://apps.who.int/nha/database/World_Map/Index/en?id=REPORT_4_WORLD_MAPS&mapType=3&ws=0

And 'nother thing, I found a link that seems to be the original report referenced in the Yayhoo article at the start of this awesome thread:

http://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/fund-reports/2014/jun/mirror-mirror

The full title of the report is: ""Mirror, Mirror on the Wall, 2014 Update: How the U.S. Health Care System Compares Internationally""

Talk about an impartial report, don't think they had any specific target in mind there do you?

I also posted links to WHO findings from 2012. Did you look at those too? Or does the WHO have 'an agenda' too?

[Yorkshire pud]

A "fact" and "information" are NOT one in the same.

That being the case; you should post the facts as you see them. Try the latest figures from WHO. ( It's okay I saved you the effort on the previous pages) They're seen as fairly independent by most.

[Yorkshire pud]

A "fact" and "information" are NOT one in the same.

If you believe that just because some journalist published an opinion piece, that makes it a fact, well then, you are an example of why were are fucked as a country, and how someone like Obama could get elected.

You won't mind anyone copying and pasting your above analysis to anything you use in your threads will you? We wouldn't want anyone thinking you're selective in your web trawling you use to try and substantiate a 'fact' now would we?

[TheMan WhoFell ToEarth]

A "fact" and "information" are NOT one in the same.

If you believe that just because some journalist published an opinion piece, that makes it a fact, well then, you are an example of why were are fucked as a country, and how someone like Obama could get elected.

You all cried about Bush, and you elected someone even more dishonest, and, you're proud of it!

I didn't vote for Obama, nor do I like him.  I think we need to go back over the ideas of facts, opinions, and information.  Clearly, you're still struggling.

[Yorkshire pud]

I didn't vote for Obama, nor do I like him.  I think we need to go back over the ideas of facts, opinions, and information.  Clearly, you're still struggling.

This is what QK overlooks. He assumes that because anyone disagrees with him, that they must ally with what he doesn't like..Makes it simple for him I suppose.

The QK philosophy:

Me good, you bad, and everything that isn't me is bad, and there are no exceptions, you must agree with everything that I am or you're bad: Conversely everything I don't like you must clearly align with. Because I say so.

[someguy]

it's time for the US to institute universal health care

[albrecht]

it's time for the US to institute universal health care

Too big and too diverse a country to make it work well without being either very costly or needing a police state like system forcing people to change their lifestyles and banning things like alcohol, cigarettes, fast foot, cokes, etc. And until the open border is closed it would collapse under its own weight as more and more free-loaders and illegals come here.

It would be better to let each state come up with a universal healthcare system of their design. So if, say in California, they want to cover bizarro sex changes than can but a place like Montana would focus on real health problems. Maybe pass back some of the taxes people pay into the Fed government and back to states. States would also be able choose how to fund (income tax, property tax, sales taxes, oil&gas tax, etc.)

[someguy]

Too big and too diverse a country to make it work well without being either very costly or needing a police state like system forcing people to change their lifestyles and banning things like alcohol, cigarettes, fast foot, cokes, etc. And until the open border is closed it would collapse under its own weight as more and more free-loaders and illegals come here.

It would be better to let each state come up with a universal healthcare system of their design. So if, say in California, they want to cover bizarro sex changes than can but a place like Montana would focus on real health problems. Maybe pass back some of the taxes people pay into the Fed government and back to states. States would also be able choose how to fund (income tax, property tax, sales taxes, oil&gas tax, etc.)

no, you're wrong.

[qaddisin]

it's time for the US to institute universal health care

We already have. In Iraq and Afghanistan.

[someguy]

Every other civilised country in the world can handle universal health care, I guess americans just aren't good enough.