Nice Little Facts

[GeorgieForPresident2216]

Earp's reputation in popular Western mythology far exceeds anything he did in life.  Stuart Lake is the Apostle Paul of that mythology, but Wyatt helped it along with self-promotion.  Even so, Ford's claim that his film represents Earp's version of events is difficult to swallow.  Even Earp was not that shameless.

From a historical perspective, Ford's film is utter bullshit.  It's not even a close call.  There was no "Clementine Carter," and Old Man Clanton died months before the gunfight.  It's a matter of historical fact that Holliday was a dentist, not a surgeon; that he survived the gunfight; that James Earp survived into the 1920's; that the Earps were never cowboys or cattle owners.  The list goes on.  The film is lauded as a classic, and it may well be one, but only as a fictional story about the Old West and not as a carrier of historical fact.

From what little I've read, I'm not sure the Earps really had any moral superiority to the Clantons.

[FightTheFuture]

From what little I've read, I'm not sure the Earps really had any moral superiority to the Clantons.

Wyatt Earp was like  the 19th century version of Bobby DeNiro in Casino.

[aldousburbank]

Earp's reputation in popular Western mythology far exceeds anything he did in life.  Stuart Lake is the Apostle Paul of that mythology, but Wyatt helped it along with self-promotion.  Even so, Ford's claim that his film represents Earp's version of events is difficult to swallow.  Even Earp was not that shameless.

From a historical perspective, Ford's film is utter bullshit.  It's not even a close call.  There was no "Clementine Carter," and Old Man Clanton died months before the gunfight.  It's a matter of historical fact that Holliday was a dentist, not a surgeon; that he survived the gunfight; that James Earp survived into the 1920's; that the Earps were never cowboys or cattle owners.  The list goes on.  The film is lauded as a classic, and it may well be one, but only as a fictional story about the Old West and not as a carrier of historical fact.

Thems shootin words.

[DigitalPigSnuggler]

What purpose would it serve, for either man, to lie and/or embellish what actually took place?

Wyatt's contemporary reputation was not good.  After killing those that attacked his brothers and fleeing Arizona, he and his brothers were the targets of much negative publicity for being killers and scofflaws.  He didn't help his reputation any with his questionable conduct in refereeing a heavyweight fight; a SF newspaper took digs at him and questioned his honesty for a full month.  In fact, at the time of his death, most people remembered him as the referee of that fight, and not as a participant in the OK Corral gunfight.  He, and that gun battle, were in the historical backwater until Stewart Lake wrote his fairy tale biography about Wyatt.

Earp made some good coin by prospecting, but pissed most of it away, living out his last years in a tiny apartment.  He hung around movie sets as a "consultant" and encountered Ford, but his work was so little regarded that he was unpaid.  He was, in today's vernacular, a hanger-on.  A newspaper article in the early 1920's, largely inaccurate, portrayed him and his brothers and their escapades in a scandalous light, casting them as cold-blooded thugs.  He was outraged by this and determined to win back his reputation, an effort that occupied his remaining life.

Do you see any reason why Earp might have taken a parallax view of events that occurred almost a half-century prior?

Ford was simply riding the gravy train.  The Western genre was at its peak while he was a director.  It lent credibility, and publicity, to his movie to claim that what was seen on the screen came directly from the lips of Earp.  Whether you accept this interpretation or not, it is incontestable that Ford's version of the gunfight and associated matters has practically zero overlap with ANYTHING claimed by Wyatt during his lifetime.  Ford got it wrong, and whether that was wishful thinking or bald-faced lying is up to you.

The original legend is fairly striking, if not somewhat inaccurate.  Seems to me, if Earp was merely interested in perpetuating the grandeur of his legendary shootout, he`d maintain the original tale.  Why twist it all around to the point of being barely recognizable? What am I missing here? Something doesn`t add up.

Even in the aftermath of the gunfight (his testimony at trial), Earp spoke mostly in general terms about what happened during the fight.  He said that he and Frank McLaury fired the first shots and fired almost at the same time, with his shot hitting McLaury in the abdomen.  Beyond that, the fighting "became general."  Various witnesses of the event testified to particular moments, but no one witness gave a complete narrative of 30 seconds of smokey, chaotic gunfire between seven participants.  Forensic evidence helps to validate some of the observations; much of the rest is take-it-or-leave it.  The second-by-second reconstructions of Lake, Ford, and even the David L. Wolper's historical pseudo-documentary in the 1970's were complete fabrications of the battle from start to finish.  Earp told a version that was favorable to himself, but those who came after him are the ones that turned the event into a cartoon.  There's money to be made in that sort of thing.

You and I disagree on many things, but I have to say that your naivety about the seamier motivations of people is the one thing that endears you to me.  You just can't bring yourself to believe that people can be so base and vile for self-serving reasons.  Well, except Obama.  And me.  But besides us...

[Robert Ghostwolf's Ghost]

Wyatt Earp was like  the 19th century version of Bobby DeNiro in Casino.

Pretty much, except he was a lot tougher than DeNiro's character and could act as his own muscle when necessary.  He spent much of his life moving from one mining boom town to the next and setting up gambling operations.  It would have made him very wealthy, but his common law wife was a compulsive gambler who liked to bet big on horse races.  She wasn't very good at it and she wound up throwing most of their money down the privy. 

[Robert Ghostwolf's Ghost]

Wyatt's contemporary reputation was not good.  After killing those that attacked his brothers and fleeing Arizona, he and his brothers were the targets of much negative publicity for being killers and scofflaws.  He didn't help his reputation any with his questionable conduct in refereeing a heavyweight fight; a SF newspaper took digs at him and questioned his honesty for a full month.  In fact, at the time of his death, most people remembered him as the referee of that fight, and not as a participant in the OK Corral gunfight.  He, and that gun battle, were in the historical backwater until Stewart Lake wrote his fairy tale biography about Wyatt.

According to his family, he was reluctant to answer questions about the O.K. Corral and would often respond by saying, "Can't we talk about something pleasant instead?"  He was also reportedly very fond of ice cream.

[Robert Ghostwolf's Ghost]

"Gunfight at the O.K. Corral" with Burt Lancaster as Wyatt Earp and Kirk Douglas as Doc Holliday is an absolutely gawd awful piece of mangled, distorted history right up there with John Wayne's "The Alamo."  In that version, the gunfight lasts for fifteen minutes and covers about twenty acres of ground.  About the only good thing you can say about it is that it featured DeForrest Kelley as Morgan Earp, and that's really not saying much.

[wr250]

"Gunfight at the O.K. Corral" with Burt Lancaster as Wyatt Earp and Kirk Douglas as Doc Holliday is an absolutely gawd awful piece of mangled, distorted history right up there with John Wayne's "The Alamo."  In that version, the gunfight lasts for fifteen minutes and covers about twenty acres of ground.  About the only good thing you can say about it is that it featured DeForrest Kelley as Morgan Earp, and that's really not saying much.

and then there is this:

Star Trek - Shootout at the OK Corral

[b_dubb]

and then there is this:

Star Trek - Shootout at the OK Corral

The crazy thing is the actor that played Scotty was a WWII soldier that was shot 6 times during the Invasion of Normandy.  Filming this episode may not have been shits and giggles for him.

[FightTheFuture]

Wyatt's contemporary reputation was not good.  After killing those that attacked his brothers and fleeing Arizona, he and his brothers were the targets of much negative publicity for being killers and scofflaws.  He didn't help his reputation any with his questionable conduct in refereeing a heavyweight fight; a SF newspaper took digs at him and questioned his honesty for a full month.  In fact, at the time of his death, most people remembered him as the referee of that fight, and not as a participant in the OK Corral gunfight.  He, and that gun battle, were in the historical backwater until Stewart Lake wrote his fairy tale biography about Wyatt.

Earp made some good coin by prospecting, but pissed most of it away, living out his last years in a tiny apartment.  He hung around movie sets as a "consultant" and encountered Ford, but his work was so little regarded that he was unpaid.  He was, in today's vernacular, a hanger-on.  A newspaper article in the early 1920's, largely inaccurate, portrayed him and his brothers and their escapades in a scandalous light, casting them as cold-blooded thugs.  He was outraged by this and determined to win back his reputation, an effort that occupied his remaining life.

Do you see any reason why Earp might have taken a parallax view of events that occurred almost a half-century prior?

Ford was simply riding the gravy train.  The Western genre was at its peak while he was a director.  It lent credibility, and publicity, to his movie to claim that what was seen on the screen came directly from the lips of Earp.  Whether you accept this interpretation or not, it is incontestable that Ford's version of the gunfight and associated matters has practically zero overlap with ANYTHING claimed by Wyatt during his lifetime.  Ford got it wrong, and whether that was wishful thinking or bald-faced lying is up to you.

Even in the aftermath of the gunfight (his testimony at trial), Earp spoke mostly in general terms about what happened during the fight.  He said that he and Frank McLaury fired the first shots and fired almost at the same time, with his shot hitting McLaury in the abdomen.  Beyond that, the fighting "became general."  Various witnesses of the event testified to particular moments, but no one witness gave a complete narrative of 30 seconds of smokey, chaotic gunfire between seven participants.  Forensic evidence helps to validate some of the observations; much of the rest is take-it-or-leave it.  The second-by-second reconstructions of Lake, Ford, and even the David L. Wolper's historical pseudo-documentary in the 1970's were complete fabrications of the battle from start to finish.  Earp told a version that was favorable to himself, but those who came after him are the ones that turned the event into a cartoon.  There's money to be made in that sort of thing.

You and I disagree on many things, but I have to say that your naivety about the seamier motivations of people is the one thing that endears you to me.  You just can't bring yourself to believe that people can be so base and vile for self-serving reasons.  Well, except Obama.  And me.  But besides us...

Well, I certainly appreciate you filling in some of the blanks for me. My interest in that era -- specifically, the "old west" -- is probably more suited towards being a fan of the legends, rather than a historian of the facts.

And, despite what I may have said out of frustration in the past -- for which, I apologize -- I don't think you are vile. Perhaps a bit unfurnished at times, but aren't we all?

[Robert Ghostwolf's Ghost]

and then there is this:

Star Trek - Shootout at the OK Corral

That was one of their worst episodes.  They must have been trying to save on their set and costume budgets when they made that one.

The nice little fact connected with it is that DeForrest Kelley enjoyed making westerns and had a fairly undistinguished career as a supporting actor in them.  He had absolutely no interest in science fiction and took the role of Bones just as a favor to Gene Roddenberry, who was an old friend of his.

[DigitalPigSnuggler]

The crazy thing is the actor that played Scotty was a WWII soldier that was shot 6 times during the Invasion of Normandy.  Filming this episode may not have been shits and giggles for him.

Friendly fire, too.  But if you know anything about him, you'd know that having blanks shot at him would not bother him at all.  He was one crazy motherfucker.

[Kelt]

and then there is this:

Star Trek - Shootout at the OK Corral

At 2:50, what sort of martial art is Kirk performing?

Dropkick, stand like a monkey, duck, slap to the arm x2, dickpunch, shoulderpunch, backpunch.

Is that some regulation Federation Unarmed Combat System?

[DigitalPigSnuggler]

At 2:50, what sort of martial art is Kirk performing?

Dropkick, stand like a monkey, duck, slap to the arm x2, dickpunch, shoulderpunch, backpunch.

Is that some regulation Federation Unarmed Combat System?

While we are on the subject of realism, did you notice the side-by fires four shells without reloading?

[Kelt]

I noticed they fired circa 40 shots between them, which is not a bad ratio for three 6-shooters and a double barrel shotgun that haven't been reloaded.

Most ordinary folks would get a maximum of 20 shots from that particular selection of... heaters I believe they called them... before they had to go, "Wait... hang on... just need to reload and all. Wait there while we get organised and kill you and such."

[DigitalPigSnuggler]

I noticed they fired circa 40 shots between them, which is not a bad ratio for three 6-shooters and a double barrel shotgun that haven't been reloaded.

Most ordinary folks would get a maximum of 20 shots from that particular selection of... heaters I believe they called them... before they had to go, "Wait... hang on... just need to reload and all. Wait there while we get organised and kill you and such."

Also, the realistic-sounding bullet ricochet noises as they...travel through wood.  Oh, and the perpetual thunder and lightning, but no rain.

[GeorgieForPresident2216]

It was all created from their minds, and they didn't know much about 19th century technology.

[DigitalPigSnuggler]

It was all created from their minds, and they didn't know much about 19th century technology.

If I was Cap'n Kirk, I'd be pissed off that I was given the Ike Clanton role, because Ike was kind of a pussy.

[Kelt]

It was all created from their minds, and they didn't know much about 19th century technology.

That makes some sense to me.

It's like when I first moved to the States, I wasn't totally sure what 4th July was all about, so I dressed up as Godzilla and trampled a model version of the Twin Towers while waving Sparklers over my head and roaring "Happy Halloween" in a sort of fictional dinosaur accent.

It actually went across very poorly.

Now I know better... it's actually about gorging on pies, turkey, and BBQ, watching Behind Enemy Lines on TV, then shooting guns at watermelons.

...and something about the British.

[DigitalPigSnuggler]

That makes some sense to me.

It's like when I first moved to the States, I wasn't totally sure what 4th July was all about, so I dressed up as Godzilla and trampled a model version of the Twin Towers while waving Sparklers over my head and roaring "Happy Halloween" in a sort of fictional dinosaur accent.

It actually went across very poorly.

Now I know better... it's actually about gorging on pies, turkey, and BBQ, watching Behind Enemy Lines on TV, then shooting guns at watermelons.

...and something about the British.

NO, it is NOT about any of that shiet you goddamn foreigner. 

July 4th is when Jesus rises from his tomb after being buried for three days.  He comes out of his cave, and if he sees his shadow, there's six more weeks of winter.

[eddie dean]

That makes some sense to me.

It's like when I first moved to the States, I wasn't totally sure what 4th July was all about, so I dressed up as Godzilla and trampled a model version of the Twin Towers while waving Sparklers over my head and roaring "Happy Halloween" in a sort of fictional dinosaur accent.

It actually went across very poorly.

Now I know better... it's actually about gorging on pies, turkey, and BBQ, watching Behind Enemy Lines on TV, then shooting guns at watermelons.

...and something about the British.

you would have been okay if you dressed up like a giant bunny handing out chocolate covered carved gourds while looking for your shadow. if you see your shadow, it means 10 more years of war.

[GeorgieForPresident2216]

That makes some sense to me.

It's like when I first moved to the States, I wasn't totally sure what 4th July was all about, so I dressed up as Godzilla and trampled a model version of the Twin Towers while waving Sparklers over my head and roaring "Happy Halloween" in a sort of fictional dinosaur accent.

It actually went across very poorly.

Now I know better... it's actually about gorging on pies, turkey, and BBQ, watching Behind Enemy Lines on TV, then shooting guns at watermelons.

...and something about the British.

You're just telling me this now?  You could have saved me a lot of anguish and the cost of all those costume rentals.

[Kelt]

Ah... so then it was actually the Mayor of New York City who killed Jesus by dropping him on his head, leading to some unseasonably inclement weather?

Then next 4th of July I have to dress up as a minor civil dignitary, throw a baby Jesus to the ground, wave sparklers above my head, and roar "DIE JESUS!" in a fictional dinosaur accent.

That should go over much better.

I thank you for the clarification.  In my small Bulgarian village we we too poverty-stricken under the glories of International Communismâ,,¢ to afford such magnificent celebrations of seasonal outpourings.  The closest we came to a parade was the annual Turnip Look festival, where all men in village would gather in house of village elder and look at communal turnip as it sat on table, before local Checkist came to confiscate turnip for purposes of feeding all peoples of glorious Soviet Union.

Now I sing you the song of my people...

...is called, "We did not need turnip anyway"


http://youtu.be/1NsMzzUr6pE

[DigitalPigSnuggler]

Does anyone remember what this thread was supposed to be about?  I'm pretty sure whatever it is, we aren't discussing it.

[DigitalPigSnuggler]

Now I sing you the song of my people...

That reminds me.  My girlfriend never, ever farts audibly when she is awake.  But once the lights are out and she's asleep, it sounds like airhorns at a Lakers game.

[Yorkshire pud]

It was all created from their minds, and they didn't know much about 19th century technology.

Slow down there...... Star Trek isn't a documentary?  Bastards. You all knew and didn't tell me?

[Kelt]

Does anyone remember what this thread was supposed to be about?  I'm pretty sure whatever it is, we aren't discussing it.

I'm not sure, but I CAN tell you that THIS...



...is my new best thing. It replaces my previous best thing, which was an 8" high Xenomorph clinging to a giant red rubber dildo (with real fake testicles) that sat on my desk here right next to my monitor.

I purchased the giant red dildo in the (as it transpires) incredibly inaccurate belief that it might be something my wife would be interested in.  To be fair I had somewhat underestimated the sheer size of the rubbery phallus, and really couldn't blame her for her initial reaction, which was somewhere between 'Horror' and 'Divorce'.

Still, it DID make a pretty sweet desk ornament.

This is all an irrelevance though, because THIS...



...as I said, is my new best thing.

[Yorkshire pud]

That reminds me.  My girlfriend never, ever farts audibly when she is awake.  But once the lights are out and she's asleep, it sounds like airhorns at a Lakers game.

Ha ha. She never does that with me. Mind you she insists on eating toast in bed. Why did you tell her that was acceptable? It's wrong.

[DigitalPigSnuggler]

The "airhorn pose"?

[DigitalPigSnuggler]

Ha ha. She never does that with me. Mind you she insists on eating toast in bed. Why did you tell her that was acceptable? It's wrong.

I told her that she should always be satisfied in bed.  Seems you set the bar rather low.