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Solid State Drives and your experiences
« on: February 26, 2016, 08:06:36 AM »
I didn't see a thread here on Solid State hard drives, so here it is.

Any drives or makes you like? What about ones you avoid? How have they changed the way you do computing, if at all? Is it too early to transition to solid state for storing media files?

I wasn't a huge SSD guy, but took a shot on one after my laptop started slowing down. It is now significantly faster to start up and run things, but I did pay quite the premium for less space vs the hybrid drive that was in there. My choice was the Samsung EVO series, which seems to get excellent reviews.

Here's an interesting article on SSD reliability over time:
http://www.zdnet.com/article/ssd-reliability-in-the-real-world-googles-experience/

And the associated paper:
http://0b4af6cdc2f0c5998459-c0245c5c937c5dedcca3f1764ecc9b2f.r43.cf2.rackcdn.com/23105-fast16-papers-schroeder.pdf

Quote
The paper's second major conclusion, that age, not use, correlates with increasing error rates, means that over-provisioning for fear of flash wearout is not needed. None of the drives in the study came anywhere near their write limits, even the 3,000 writes specified for the MLC drives.

But it isn't all good news. SSD UBER rates are higher than disk rates, which means that backing up SSDs is even more important than it is with disks. The SSD is less likely to fail during its normal life, but more likely to lose data.

Solid State Drives and your experiences
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2016, 08:56:20 AM »
I didn't see a thread here on Solid State hard drives, so here it is.

Any drives or makes you like? What about ones you avoid? How have they changed the way you do computing, if at all? Is it too early to transition to solid state for storing media files?

I wasn't a huge SSD guy, but took a shot on one after my laptop started slowing down. It is now significantly faster to start up and run things, but I did pay quite the premium for less space vs the hybrid drive that was in there. My choice was the Samsung EVO series, which seems to get excellent reviews.

Here's an interesting article on SSD reliability over time:
http://www.zdnet.com/article/ssd-reliability-in-the-real-world-googles-experience/

And the associated paper:
http://0b4af6cdc2f0c5998459-c0245c5c937c5dedcca3f1764ecc9b2f.r43.cf2.rackcdn.com/23105-fast16-papers-schroeder.pdf

The SSD experience is now maturing to the point where regular non-tech people can easily realize the benefit.  I have them in both my laptop and desktop.  i use them only to hold the OS and programs.  On the desktop I have a large platter drive that holds the user files.  On the laptop, I have a small partition to hold those files until I transfer them to an external drive. 

The setup and maintenance is quite a bit different than a standard drive, but the boot time is really fast, almost as fast as coming out of hibernation, which is why I don't use that function and can recover the disk space for it.

Solid State Drives and your experiences
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2016, 09:06:54 AM »
I am not a computer guru or anything but i built my first desktop last August. When i was reading up on how to build comps i read a little about SSD's and decided i wanted to try one. I bought a Samsung 850 EVO 120GB to run the OS on and i have a 1TB WD black drive for programs and storing media. So far so good and i love the boot times i just hope it's still working 5 years from now.

Solid State Drives and your experiences
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2016, 09:48:25 AM »
I am not a computer guru or anything but i built my first desktop last August. When i was reading up on how to build comps i read a little about SSD's and decided i wanted to try one. I bought a Samsung 850 EVO 120GB to run the OS on and i have a 1TB WD black drive for programs and storing media. So far so good and i love the boot times i just hope it's still working 5 years from now.
I've been concerned about the longevity as well.  The machine's I'm using that have them run smooth as silk.  i really love the speed BUT from what I've read and seen working with them professionally, I suggest we all run multiple backup's of vital data.

check this out:
http://techreport.com/review/27909/the-ssd-endurance-experiment-theyre-all-dead

Solid State Drives and your experiences
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2016, 03:08:21 PM »
I so want to extend the life of my ancient Thinkpad T60 and alot of people recommend the best way is upgrading to a SSD.  It's supposed to speed up boot times and the OS in general.  But I'm not sure if it's worth trying to tinker with all those little laptop parts n' screws.  But I love that little tank with it's still-perfect clicky keyboard, and 4:3 screen that I can actually read text on, so I may have to try it.

Solid State Drives and your experiences
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2016, 03:15:55 PM »
I so want to extend the life of my ancient Thinkpad T60 and alot of people recommend the best way is upgrading to a SSD.  It's supposed to speed up boot times and the OS in general.  But I'm not sure if it's worth trying to tinker with all those little laptop parts n' screws.  But I love that little tank with it's still-perfect clicky keyboard, and 4:3 screen that I can actually read text on, so I may have to try it.

It's easy to swap out the hard drive on a laptop.  Better make sure that you have a SATA drive in your Thnkpad before buying the SSD, though.

Solid State Drives and your experiences
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2016, 08:54:45 PM »
It's easy to swap out the hard drive on a laptop.  Better make sure that you have a SATA drive in your Thnkpad before buying the SSD, though.

Thanks for the tip, I'll check into that.  At present I have no idea.   :)

Solid State Drives and your experiences
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2016, 08:40:34 AM »
Thanks for the tip, I'll check into that.  At present I have no idea.   :)
If this (http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Category:T60) is the correct model, it would be SATA.

Operating under that assumption, you should have an easy time: https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/IBM+Thinkpad+T60+Hard+Drive+Replacement/13021

I had an old Dell Inspiron 1150 with a dead HDD that I wanted to run Lubuntu on. Pulled the hard drive out, it was PATA. Had a hard time finding a non-used replacement drive. Had a harder time trying to fit the damn thing into the hard drive bay's sled. All those stinking pins.

SATA, on the other hand, is pretty easy. Nice solid connector. Harder to bend it!

Solid State Drives and your experiences
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2016, 11:50:38 PM »
If this (http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Category:T60) is the correct model, it would be SATA. ...

Wow thanks much cweb for doing that research!  Very helpful, and now I'm inspired to proceed.  I may yet squeeze a few more years outta that little tank.   8)

Solid State Drives and your experiences
« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2016, 10:50:06 AM »
There seems to some worry about longevity on the SSDs. This is justified, not to mention they are more suceptible to E.S.D. failure. For the average user, figure 5-7 years use if you're not running heavy applications.
One thing that hasn't been addressed yet is the differences between TLC, MLC, & SLC's.
If you can afford it, Single Level Chips (SLC) are the way to go. These are Industrial / Enterprise level hardware built for extreme conditions and reliability.
If you are concerned about data-loss, a dedicated extenal HDD known for reliabilty (Hitachi has the highest server reliability in tests,) that is used for backups only, is the way to go.

Comparisons:

http://www.ssdbuyingguide.com/difference-between-tlc-mlc-and-slc/

http://www.supersspeed.com/techAll.asp?sid=11

When concerned about reliability, always check what's happenning in the Server / Enterprise hardware scene.  ;)

Solid State Drives and your experiences
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2016, 03:16:01 PM »
Pulled the hard drive out, it was PATA.

and even if you do find an unused PATA drive, it's probably been sitting on a shelf for years which is not a good thing.  components with moving parts, in any system, need to move.  bad things happen when they don't.  i would expect nothing but the worst from a PATA drive listed as new.

Solid State Drives and your experiences
« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2016, 04:58:27 PM »
and even if you do find an unused PATA drive, it's probably been sitting on a shelf for years which is not a good thing.  components with moving parts, in any system, need to move.  bad things happen when they don't.  i would expect nothing but the worst from a PATA drive listed as new.
True story. My experience was less than stellar. I was hoping to squeeze a little bit more out of a really old laptop, and succeeded to a small degree. Old, slow hardware was still... slow.

Your "moving parts" comment also rings true for other things that move inside a computer. In my case, the fans. Still worked, but didn't sound right.

There seems to some worry about longevity on the SSDs. This is justified, not to mention they are more suceptible to E.S.D. failure. For the average user, figure 5-7 years use if you're not running heavy applications.
...
When concerned about reliability, always check what's happenning in the Server / Enterprise hardware scene.  ;)

I'm wondering how much longer mechanical drives will last. I'm hoping a while, especially on the 3.5" end, but I am seeing more servers with 2.5" slots (intended for SSDs).

Solid State Drives and your experiences
« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2016, 08:02:11 PM »
and even if you do find an unused PATA drive, it's probably been sitting on a shelf for years which is not a good thing.  components with moving parts, in any system, need to move.  bad things happen when they don't.  i would expect nothing but the worst from a PATA drive listed as new.
Good point MV with one caveat, they still make industrial PATA for embedded / industrial systems. These will cost an arm & a leg and are usually very low capacity.
I found my - Trancend 32GB consumer grade SSD - replacement on E-Bay. New Old Stock. Amazon only carries enterprise / Commercial grade PATA the last time I checked. $47.00 after 3 weeks of searching and this was an NOS New In Box SSD. I've been using it for two years now and have reinstalled OS's over 10 times. It's still running good, but you're right about HDD's, they're like cars if you let them sit, after so long, they need to be gone through. I'm leery of old HDDs also.

Solid State Drives and your experiences
« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2016, 08:20:02 PM »
True story. My experience was less than stellar. I was hoping to squeeze a little bit more out of a really old laptop, and succeeded to a small degree. Old, slow hardware was still... slow.

Your "moving parts" comment also rings true for other things that move inside a computer. In my case, the fans. Still worked, but didn't sound right.

I'm wondering how much longer mechanical drives will last. I'm hoping a while, especially on the 3.5" end, but I am seeing more servers with 2.5" slots (intended for SSDs).
Actually, all factors being equivelant, ssd's have high longevity and you don't have to worry about defragmenting the drive.

http://www.storagereview.com/ssd_vs_hdd

Solid State Drives and your experiences
« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2016, 08:24:25 PM »

Solid State Drives and your experiences
« Reply #15 on: March 20, 2016, 11:48:04 PM »
I'm glad I found this thread. I'm at the point where I am backing up HDDs to HDDs (Hitachi and Western Digital) every several months and putting all the critical data (for tertiary backup) on 64GB flashdrives (Kingston). These have been excellent performers, BTW
http://www.walmart.com/ip/24727361?wmlspartner=wlpa&selectedSellerId=0&adid=22222222227017983886&wl0=&wl1=g&wl2=c&wl3=40332815312&wl4=&wl5=pla&wl6=78294730952&veh=sem

My storage means are still pretty modest (320 GB for everything from the last decade or so of which about 100 GB which is critical) and even with all the backup I still wonder if I am going about things in the best way as every year brings new developments and uncharted territory. With the prices of these USB flashes getting dirt cheap when is the optimal time to jump over to an SSD?

Solid State Drives and your experiences
« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2016, 10:06:44 AM »
Actually, all factors being equivelant, ssd's have high longevity and you don't have to worry about defragmenting the drive.

http://www.storagereview.com/ssd_vs_hdd
I'm sorry for being unclear. I was wondering aloud how long mechanical hard drives would continue to be manufactured and sold. In other words, how long the market would last.

After reading up on SSD longevity a short while ago, I actually purchased one to store my Art Bell collection. Loving the read speeds!

This is why I stay away from SeaGate.     http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/175089-who-makes-the-most-reliable-hard-drives
There's been a fair amount of criticism on the Backblaze study quoted there, including some questions about their testing methods.
http://www.tweaktown.com/articles/6028/dispelling-backblaze-s-hdd-reliability-myth-the-real-story-covered/index.html#UX5OD0IAgPphmv71.99

Solid State Drives and your experiences
« Reply #17 on: March 21, 2016, 10:32:04 PM »
I'm still burning backup/archives onto DVD in addition to portable harddrives. I know the tech is different but recall Laser Discs getting "rot" so think (?) that DVDs/CDs will also exhibit similar at some point so try to back those up also. Haven't gone to all this Cloud stuff. Actually, the worst thing is the sheer volume and cheapness of data storage is that many of my 'stuff' is duplicated countless times, which, I guess is good for assuring that some of the stuff will be archived and safe but also means hard to find or no sense of order! Good luck on my heirs trying to sort the photos etc out at some point!

Solid State Drives and your experiences
« Reply #18 on: March 21, 2016, 11:58:25 PM »
I'm sorry for being unclear. I was wondering aloud how long mechanical hard drives would continue to be manufactured and sold. In other words, how long the market would last.
Quote
I don't think mechanicals will ever go away. When a large enterprise runs their rotations, they run a cost analysis, and with the price of HDD's dropping on a regular basis, there will probably always be a demand for them.
Quote

After reading up on SSD longevity a short while ago, I actually purchased one to store my Art Bell collection. Loving the read speeds!
There's been a fair amount of criticism on the Backblaze study quoted there, including some questions about their testing methods.
http://www.tweaktown.com/articles/6028/dispelling-backblaze-s-hdd-reliability-myth-the-real-story-covered/index.html#UX5OD0IAgPphmv71.99
I had a 3TB Seagate external. When it bit the dust after 2 years, it never gave a warning. The proprietary drivers to run it are built into the firmware of the controller and it won't run without that specific controller. Prices for that specific model go for over $100.00 used on EBay because everyone else has the F**king problem trying to recover their data.
I don't like SeaGate. >:(

Solid State Drives and your experiences
« Reply #19 on: March 22, 2016, 12:11:54 AM »
I had a 3TB Seagate external. When it bit the dust after 2 years, it never gave a warning. The proprietary drivers to run it are built into the firmware of the controller and it won't run without that specific controller. Prices for that specific model go for over $100.00 used on EBay because everyone else has the F**king problem trying to recover their data.
I don't like SeaGate. >:(

That just happen to me two weeks ago, i had to take the HD out of its plastic external casing, and now im using it as an internal drive, since it was the controller that fried for me.

Solid State Drives and your experiences
« Reply #20 on: March 22, 2016, 07:25:20 AM »
I had a 3TB Seagate external. When it bit the dust after 2 years, it never gave a warning. The proprietary drivers to run it are built into the firmware of the controller and it won't run without that specific controller. Prices for that specific model go for over $100.00 used on EBay because everyone else has the F**king problem trying to recover their data.
I don't like SeaGate. >:(
Ah, that sucks.  :(

I've heard a fair share of Seagate horror stories, but I've thankfully dodged them. Most of my mechanical drives are WD.

Solid State Drives and your experiences
« Reply #21 on: March 22, 2016, 01:59:36 PM »
Actually, all factors being equivelant, ssd's have high longevity and you don't have to worry about defragmenting the drive.

http://www.storagereview.com/ssd_vs_hdd

and if one does defragment an ssd, it'll shorten the lifespan of the drive significantly.

Solid State Drives and your experiences
« Reply #22 on: March 22, 2016, 02:07:50 PM »
I'm still burning backup/archives onto DVD in addition to portable harddrives. I know the tech is different but recall Laser Discs getting "rot" so think (?) that DVDs/CDs will also exhibit similar at some point so try to back those up also. Haven't gone to all this Cloud stuff. Actually, the worst thing is the sheer volume and cheapness of data storage is that many of my 'stuff' is duplicated countless times, which, I guess is good for assuring that some of the stuff will be archived and safe but also means hard to find or no sense of order! Good luck on my heirs trying to sort the photos etc out at some point!

there are a LOT of people out there who think their family photos are safe because they were burned to a cd/dvd ten years ago.  they're in for a big surprise, in most cases.  store bought movie dvds/music cds, which are industrially reproduced, are done so using a process that physically etches the data in microscopic "notches" on the reflective surface of the disk.  when you burn disks at home, the process simply changes the color/reflectivity of the surface, mimicking the physically etched notches found in the store bought movie dvds.  the data eventually becomes unreadable on home burned disks because the chemical surface degrades over time, whereas the physically etched disks are permanent.

Solid State Drives and your experiences
« Reply #23 on: March 22, 2016, 02:10:20 PM »
That just happen to me two weeks ago, i had to take the HD out of its plastic external casing, and now im using it as an internal drive, since it was the controller that fried for me.

in the past, i've taken drives out of brand new external enclosures to use the drive internally, and then used the enclosure as an adapter to USB connect drives when needed.  it's worked better than any usb adapter i've purchased, and it's usb 3.0.

Solid State Drives and your experiences
« Reply #24 on: March 22, 2016, 02:51:17 PM »
there are a LOT of people out there who think their family photos are safe because they were burned to a cd/dvd ten years ago.  they're in for a big surprise, in most cases.  store bought movie dvds/music cds, which are industrially reproduced, are done so using a process that physically etches the data in microscopic "notches" on the reflective surface of the disk.  when you burn disks at home, the process simply changes the color/reflectivity of the surface, mimicking the physically etched notches found in the store bought movie dvds.  the data eventually becomes unreadable on home burned disks because the chemical surface degrades over time, whereas the physically etched disks are permanent.
I did not know that but suspected it because old laser disc movies had this problem (and those were professionally 'burnt.' So what is the optimal solution for backing things like family photos etc?

Solid State Drives and your experiences
« Reply #25 on: March 22, 2016, 03:48:32 PM »
So what is the optimal solution for backing things like family photos etc?

i'd say flash memory with the addition of cloud storage like dropbox/mozy etc.

Solid State Drives and your experiences
« Reply #26 on: March 22, 2016, 05:23:23 PM »
there are a LOT of people out there who think their family photos are safe because they were burned to a cd/dvd ten years ago.  they're in for a big surprise, in most cases.  store bought movie dvds/music cds, which are industrially reproduced, are done so using a process that physically etches the data in microscopic "notches" on the reflective surface of the disk.  when you burn disks at home, the process simply changes the color/reflectivity of the surface, mimicking the physically etched notches found in the store bought movie dvds.  the data eventually becomes unreadable on home burned disks because the chemical surface degrades over time, whereas the physically etched disks are permanent.
Yep. If you talk to one of the places that make large-quantity disc copies, they'll be quick to differentiate between "duplication" (burning the layer of substrate, like what you do with CD-R/DVD-R/etc.) and "replication" (the industrial process of physically pressing the data into the disc permanently).

The substrate degrades over time, like you said. I've noticed burned CD-R discs from 6-7 years ago that are no longer readable.

Years ago a former employer of mine decided that he wanted some of our older digital video material archived in a binder of DVDs, rather than use up server space. He'll be in for a fun surprise in about 3-4 years. (And I'm not even getting into the fact that they're regular playable DVDs using that awesome lossy bitrate-restricted MPEG-2 codec. But what did I know, I was just "a kid.")

Solid State Drives and your experiences
« Reply #27 on: March 22, 2016, 06:08:07 PM »
i'd say flash memory with the addition of cloud storage like dropbox/mozy etc.
Thanks. Now I'm getting paranoid about it and I guess going to spend a day pulling stuff old CDs and DVDs and put them on some flash drives/cloud.

Solid State Drives and your experiences
« Reply #28 on: March 24, 2016, 04:48:37 AM »
and if one does defragment an ssd, it'll shorten the lifespan of the drive significantly.
Yes, not to mention the trim will more than likely need to be reset.