Bernie Sanders 2016 Thread

[TigerLily]

P.S. And we also have the reality of Ross Perot splitting the RNC voters and getting Clinton I in by a slim margin

[Dr. MD MD]

As I posted above we may not have polls but we have the Nader Experience.  Imagine if Gore had won. We would have had the first Green president, no Iraq invasion and probably no ISIS

I think the other question you need to ask yourself is are you content with the administration of the last 8 years and the direction they've been steering the country? Perhaps you are but Hillary will only be a continuation of this. I just don't see it working for most.

BTW, I see you're a Prince fan. Don't you think it's weird that he very specifically predicted 9/11 3 years before it happened?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzC_GNaf12o

WTF?! 

[136 or 142]

P.S. And we also have the reality of Ross Perot splitting the RNC voters and getting Clinton I in by a slim margin

This is a pure fiction most likely based on a Republican lie to say that Bill Clinton wasn't a legitimate President.  There is not a single piece of evidence that suggests that Bill Clinton would not have won were Ross Perot not in the race, and, in fact, all the evidence goes the other way: polling data, popular vote and electoral college vote.  The polling data includes polling of Ross Perot voters (who say they would have split roughly 1/3 to Clinton and 1/3 to Bush with the rest saying they wouldn't have voted as well as polling data that showed that had George H W Bush been reelected, he would have had the lowest approval rating of any reelected President since polling started.)

Also, Bill Clinton won the popular vote by 5.4% (43.0-37.6%, quite a bit more than a 'slim margin') and he won a near electoral college landslide.  Based on the 1996 Presidential election result the only states that Clinton won that he likely would not have had Perot not run were Montana and Colorado.

[VtaGeezer]

I don't think she's a mole, VtaGeezer. I'm reading this all over the internet and I've heard it firsthand from some of Sanders' supporters.

Supporters who are pipe-dreaming, I'd say.  Even Democratic Socialist Bernie knew better that to associate himself with Greens over the years.  Cranks come on the left too; usually wearing Berkenstocks and driving Subarus, or not driving at all so not to offend Mother Gaia.

The consequences of this election will be an inflection point for America either way, and the curve ain't going to go positive.

[( Amy )]

I was on the Bernie or Bust train. Then read Trump's website. *shudder* . I will vote for Hillary as a vote against the RNC candidate whoever it is.
Per the Green Party candidate. Much closer to my liking than Hillary. However, remember the Nader fiasco. He took enough votes away from Gore to guarantee Bush II won.
I wish we had viable multiple political parties but that needs to start at the local and regional level not with the President, imo.

I guess it's something to consider. Not something comfortable to consider, but something to consider nonetheless.

(Amy) must be a Trump mole to push such a screwball notion.  Maybe Nader could run again too, and be a 2nd drain on HMH's chances.

Definitely not a Trump mole.
Visited the dump that was his carnival across the street from Taj when I was a kid.
First impression, lasting impression. Saw his shit in Aberdeen two years ago.
Hope Scotland pisses on that course.

I don't think she's a mole, VtaGeezer. I'm reading this all over the internet and I've heard it firsthand from some of Sanders' supporters. Maybe it's just emotional reaction, but the consequences of not voting are scary.

It is largely an emotional reaction. NY let me down. I was mad before. Now, just exhausted.

P.S. And we also have the reality of Ross Perot splitting the RNC voters and getting Clinton I in by a slim margin

Perot's still around? His tech company was bought out about four years ago.

Supporters who are pipe-dreaming, I'd say.  Even Democratic Socialist Bernie knew better that to associate himself with Greens over the years.  Cranks come on the left too; usually wearing Berkenstocks and driving Subarus, or not driving at all so not to offend Mother Gaia.

The consequences of this election will be an inflection point for America either way, and the curve ain't going to go positive.

Just observing the possibilities. Not been a fan of the Bernie/GMO labeling thing. When his wife went on TYT before NY, she was talking about a cabinet of alt-health gurus. I cringed. I'd take a little woo-woo though over a flip-flopping fair-weather progressive with serial campaign finance issues, but it looks like we won't have much of a choice.

[TigerLily]

I think the other question you need to ask yourself is are you content with the administration of the last 8 years and the direction they've been steering the country? Perhaps you are but Hillary will only be a continuation of this. I just don't see it working for most.

Yes. Except could have been even better without the Republican stonewalling

BTW, I see you're a Prince fan. Don't you think it's weird that he very specifically predicted 9/11 3 years before it happened?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzC_GNaf12o

WTF?! 

He certainly gave us a Sign o' the Times

[Dr. MD MD]

Yes. Except could have been even better without the Republican stonewalling
He certainly gave us a Sign o' the Times

Tru dat...on both counts. 

[TigerLily]

This is a pure fiction most likely based on a Republican lie to say that Bill Clinton wasn't a legitimate President...

...Also, Bill Clinton won the popular vote by 5.4% (43.0-37.6%, quite a bit more than a 'slim margin') .....

Oops. Sorry. That addendum was a quick afterthought and I relied on my memory alone. Guess I should keep my afterthoughts to myself.

The first time I ever voted was for Bill. Wish I felt as excited now about Hillary as I did then about Bill

[Dr. MD MD]

Oops. Sorry. That addendum was a quick afterthought and I relied on my memory alone. Guess I should keep my afterthoughts to myself.

The first time I ever voted was for Bill. Wish I felt as excited now about Hillary as I did then about Bill

Me and all my friends at the time were thinking, "Wow! The first of the hippie generation to be president. He's going to bring that ethic to the white house!" 

Ooops! 

[TigerLily]

Me and all my friends at the time were thinking, "Wow! The first of the hippie generation to be president. He's going to bring that ethic to the white house!" 

Ooops! 

Well. He was into Free Love. It will be awesome having him hanging around the old stomping grounds again 

[=Schlyder=]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAzQtUb_EfA

LOL musicians will understand.

[136 or 142]

Sanders didn't collapse.  He ran into the Clinton Machine in NY.  Closed primary; indies couldn't vote. No party change withing six month of the election. NYC voter rolls coincidentally "purged".   They didn't choose to live NY because they liked the climate. The Clintons are grifters who've made mockery of American electoral process, but we've accepted this f'ing 18th Century shit electoral process for so long that we think its honest and honorable.  It's like a religion cult. David Dinkens was right next to HMH last night when she was giving her speech; David fucking Dinkens.  Case closed. This election is going to be an inflection point for America.  The millenials may be pussies, but they know they're being had.  They're going to vote for Trump just to bring the system down.

As far as I know this is the first polling done on younger voters, and certainly not to my surprise it shows that this theory that young people would vote for Trump over HRC is complete nonsense:


A new Harvard Institute of Politics poll of young voters finds Hillary Clinton the clear front-runner over Donald Trump to win the White House in 2016, 61% to 25%.

“More than three in five (61%) prefer that a Democrat win the White House, while 33% prefer a Republican. The divide of 28 points is nearly double what it was in Spring 2015, when the divide was 15 percentage points (55% Democrat; 40% Republican).”

From a comment on politicalwire.com:

Clinton's numbers match young voters' preference for a generic Democrat. Trump's numbers are lower than that for a generic Republican.

Among women, it is 57% for Clinton and 15% for Trump. Among African Americans, Clinton leads Trump 76% to 5%, and among Hispanics, she leads 71% to 9%. The Democratic coalition seems to be holding even among young voters.

Full poll results here:
http://iop.harvard.edu/iop-now/harvard-iop-spring-2016-poll

I would point out that this poll is taken at a time when Trump seems to be dominating the small number of young Republican voters while Bernie Sanders' supporters are sending the 'hate Hillary' message to their young supporters.

So, if anything, this poll might well understate the share of the youth vote that Hillary Clinton will receive.

Of course, as that post on politicalwire.com showed the white youth turnout may decline from 2008 and 2012, but if Donald Trump and his supporters were planning to base his victory on a lot of young Bernie Sanders voting for him in the General Election, this poll shows that is just a silly pipe dream.

I don't want to generalize any generation, but most young people are too intelligent to fall for Trump's act.

[VtaGeezer]

A new Harvard Institute of Politics poll of young voters finds Hillary Clinton the clear front-runner over Donald Trump to win the White House in 2016, 61% to 25%.

What a surprise that a Harvard IOP poll built around HRHH shows she's a shoo-in. 

This time last year, the political class and their brilliant pollsters were 100% certain that Clinton would have no significant opposition for the nomination, that Bush 3 would absolutely without a doubt be unstoppable. And that Donald Trump, if he ran, would crash and burn by NH.  The mantra for three months has been that Trump can't beat Clinton.  I think the worst bet one could make this year would to bet with the long range predictive polls or the pundits.

It's merely a hunch, but I think Trump, a political Occam's Razor, will lay it out clearly and bluntly for millennials..."Do you want another SJW who'll fight for more low income programs, or do you want someone who understands what it actually takes to create a decent damn job?"

[TigerLily]

What a surprise that a Harvard IOP poll built around HRHH shows she's a shoo-in. 

Bill Clinton attended Georgetown, Oxford, Yale Law
Hillary Clinton attended Wellesley, Yale Law

I know. It's a vast left-wing conspiracy among college graduates

[VtaGeezer]

Bill Clinton attended Georgetown, Oxford, Yale Law
Hillary Clinton attended Wellesley, Yale Law

I know. It's a vast left-wing conspiracy among college graduates

Who went where is irrelevant to Harvard's institutional thumb on the left side of the scale.

[136 or 142]

What a surprise that a Harvard IOP poll built around HRHH shows she's a shoo-in. 

This time last year, the political class and their brilliant pollsters were 100% certain that Clinton would have no significant opposition for the nomination, that Bush 3 would absolutely without a doubt be unstoppable. And that Donald Trump, if he ran, would crash and burn by NH.  The mantra for three months has been that Trump can't beat Clinton.  I think the worst bet one could make this year would to bet with the long range predictive polls or the pundits.

It's merely a hunch, but I think Trump, a political Occam's Razor, will lay it out clearly and bluntly for millennials..."Do you want another SJW who'll fight for more low income programs, or do you want someone who understands what it actually takes to create a decent damn job?"

There are all sorts of approaches that can be taken to respond to that, from Trump's many failed businesses, to his not exactly being a self made 'job creator' to the mere fact that most young voters don't seem to be all that impressed with the supposed superiority of business people.  A fair number of young people either create their own jobs or know somebody who has created their own job.

That's one approach.  Another is that Trump's biggest supporters are lower educated working class white people, and mainly white males, whereas the younger voters who are most likely to vote are college educated with high debts. Trump is not only basically not offering them anything, and I doubt most of these younger voters are all that impressed with his opposition to free trade, but his overt racism seems to be turning a large number of them completely against him.

As to your other points. It's far from universal among the pundits that Hillary Clinton would easily defeat Trump.  There are other pundits who say what you say.

All of your other points are to do with polling.  You are correct that the early polls showed Hillary Clinton winning easily, but there was no poll that ever showed Jeb Bush much above 20%, so to the degree that you may be correct that the pundits predicted he would easily become the Republican nominee, it had nothing to do with the polls and the same thing can be said about Donald Trump and that nearly every pundit expected he would fade away.  After initially polling low before entering the race, Donald Trump, unlike Jeb Bush, quickly got to at least 30% in the polls. So, as with Jeb Bush, the polls knew more than the pundits.

As to your disbelief in this poll, I'd say your conspiratorial view on that is more fitting with George Noory and many of his guests.

[GuerrillaUnReal]

Bernie Sanders is the perfect epitome of an American socialist. Someone who's only out for themselves and who's only ambition is to rob his mindless followers. Here's an e-mail this guy sent out today.

The polls are about to close in five states, and we expect to do well in a number of them. As you watch the results, I want you to keep something very important in mind. We are running a historic campaign which is transforming America.
Any victories and any votes we receive tonight, next week in Indiana, and in each state moving forward are a public declaration of support for the values we share.

Our path to the nomination was never narrower than the day I announced my candidacy. I will not stop fighting for an America where no one who works 40 hours a week lives in poverty, where health care is a right for all Americans, where kids of all backgrounds can go to college without crushing debt, where there is no bank too big to fail, no banker too powerful to jail, and we've reclaimed our democracy from the billionaire class.
The political establishment wants us to go away so they can begin their march to the center. But we can send a message to them in a language they’re sure to understand:

Contribute to our campaign today and we are going to keep fighting for the nomination while sending an unmistakable message to the political establishment about our commitment to the values we share.

Instead of conceding defeat, consolidating the left and helping to pull the Democrats together for a win. Sanders is going to tear the Democratic Party apart and radicalize his followers with the main impetus to be about stealing their money.

This piece of trash is exactly what the left deserves.

[136 or 142]

Bernie Sanders is the perfect epitome of an American socialist. Someone who's only out for themselves and who's only ambition is to rob his mindless followers. Here's an e-mail this guy sent out today.

Instead of conceding defeat, consolidating the left and helping to pull the Democrats together for a win. Sanders is going to tear the Democratic Party apart and radicalize his followers with the main impetus to be about stealing their money.

This piece of trash is exactly what the left deserves.

1.I don't know what an 'American socialist' is.
2.He usually asks for $27 in donations, and it's not for him personally.

[GuerrillaUnReal]

1.I don't know what an 'American socialist' is.
2.He usually asks for $27 in donations, and it's not for him personally.

I know you don't.

LOL.

[136 or 142]

I know you don't.

LOL.

Probably because it doesn't mean anything.

[GuerrillaUnReal]

Probably because it doesn't mean anything.

yeah, there's no such thing as American socialists. Bernie Sanders is a figment of everyone's imagination.

How much money have you given to Sanders by the way?

[Designx]

I don't want to generalize any generation, but most young people are too intelligent to fall for Trump's act.

Yet they are too stupid to realize that Bernie's full load of free crap, 15$ minimum wage, and high taxation on businesses and the wealthy will drop the bottom out of the job market. I hope they never had any intention of doing anything with their free college education.

[GuerrillaUnReal]

Yet they are too stupid to realize that Bernie's full load of free crap, 15$ minimum wage, and high taxation on businesses and the wealthy will drop the bottom out of the job market. I hope they never had any intention of doing anything with their free college education.

This guy is exactly what I thought he was, I didn't read him talking about his youth.

It's cool man, I got fucked by Obama in the exact same way in my youthful naivete.

[136 or 142]

Yet they are too stupid to realize that Bernie's full load of free crap, 15$ minimum wage, and high taxation on businesses and the wealthy will drop the bottom out of the job market. I hope they never had any intention of doing anything with their free college education.

That's somewhat of a fair point, but I think it also shows that young voters don't buy this crap about the wonders of the 'job creators' and how there will only be jobs if life is made as easy for these 'job creators' as possible.

I also agree that universal free college education is a bad idea for a number of reasons, but on the other hand, somehow the U.S has no money to make it more affordable for people to go to university, yet it has a bottomless pit for the already bloated U.S military and for endless wars.

[136 or 142]

yeah, there's no such thing as American socialists. Bernie Sanders is a figment of everyone's imagination.

How much money have you given to Sanders by the way?

I don't support Sanders and I'm Canadian, so I don't donate to any American politician.

Bernie Sanders calls himself a 'Democratic socialist' not an 'American socialist.'  There is no economic definition of Democratic socialism and based on the economic definition of socialism, Bernie Sanders isn't one of them.

[GravitySucks]

That's somewhat of a fair point, but I think it also shows that young voters don't buy this crap about the wonders of the 'job creators' and how there will only be jobs if life is made as wonderful for them as possible.

I also agree that universal free college education is a bad idea for a number of reasons, but on the other hand, somehow the U.S has no money to make it more affordable for people to go to university, yet it has a bottomless pit for the already bloated U.S military and for endless wars.

It's all a Canadian plot. They goad us into going to war which creates refugees that Canada then takes in to do the jobs Canadians don't want to do.

[GuerrillaUnReal]

I don't support Sanders and I'm Canadian, so I don't donate to any American politician.

Bernie Sanders calls himself a 'Democratic socialist' not an 'American socialist.'  There is no economic definition of Democratic socialism and based on the economic definition of socialism, Bernie Sanders isn't one of them.

Doesn't mean dick what he calls himself. Hitler was a national socialist. He's an American, he's a socialist, therefore American socialist. Since socialism is primarily a form of religion with con men duping their followers, well there you go as we just witnessed with that e-mail.

So you admit Bernie is just making shit up?

Breaking up wealth to redistribute it is the entire essence of socialism.  :

[chefist]

This guy is exactly what I thought he was, I didn't read him talking about his youth.

It's cool man, I got fucked by Obama in the exact same way in my youthful naivete.

The left is not immune to innane fiscal policy... Nixon froze prices and wages...devastating... It's simple, if a farmer had a bad crop, prices go up...if you force them to sell for less without compensation for good years, they die....

[GuerrillaUnReal]

The left is not immune to innane fiscal policy... Nixon froze prices and wages...devastating... It's simple, if a farmer had a bad crop, prices go up...if you force them to sell for less without compensation for good years, they die....

The right is historically a complete trainwreck with the economy. One of the reasons I was such a militant liberal for so many years was the utter insanity of Bush's economic policies which gutted the middle class like a fish.

[136 or 142]

Doesn't mean dick what he calls himself. Hitler was a national socialist. He's an American, he's a socialist, therefore American socialist. Since socialism is primarily a form of religion with con men duping their followers, well there you go as we just witnessed with that e-mail.

So you admit Bernie is just making shit up?

Breaking up wealth to redistribute it is the entire essence of socialism.  :

Redistribution of wealth is part of the planks of liberalism not socialism.  Socialism is nationalization of a number of key sectors of the economy.  Lenin when bringing in his 'new economic policy' referred to these sectors as 'The Commanding Heights."  I don't know what you mean by 'breaking up wealth.'  The U.S has no wealth tax and Sanders hasn't proposed one.

I think Sanders addresses a lot of the problems in the economy, but I don't think he has many if any practical solutions.  In this, he is no different than a lot of those on the further left. 

I think Sanders, unlike, Donald Trump, is sincere, and I think Sanders, unlike Cruz, is fundamentally honest.  I just think Sanders' economic policy proposals are simple and wrong.