Midnight In The Desert

[trostol]

Thanks GS - I dropped by and noticed that my favorite gabbers were at it so it seemed an opportune moment to poke my head in.  Suddenly realizing that sounded dirty, lol.

I'm sitting here listening to MitD downloads as I work on stuff, and it occurred to me that Heather hasn't eased up with the "entertainer voice" yet.  I hope she'll just chill out and sit back and -talk to us like people-.  That's the only thing that bugs me about her show, but it's important because it sounds patronizing, like she's talking to children.  Or am I the only one who feels that way?

Anyway I hope you all are having a good time around here; it's good to see humans back in the driver's seat, in this thread at least ;

nope...

[TigerLily]

I understand what you're saying my time traveling friend but even though reductive materialism is persuasive idealism is not so easily dismissed if examined. Consciousness is the one thing we know exists for sure. I think therefore I am is the starting line for any further understanding. I think some of us are just trying to explore how these things could be true from a perspective beyond dualism, where we're not thinking of consciousness and matter as two different things necessarily.

Are you my new boyfriend?

[Dr. MD MD]

Are you my new boyfriend?

Maybe...I don't keep tabs on all dimensions 

[norland2424]

Good show tonight.

[21st Century Man]

Gettysburg gave me weird vibes. I went there maybe 3-4 years ago and while I enjoyed the historical part of things, the human part of me just felt like getting the hell out of there. The town itself is quite nice though.

I read another story where a bunch of Japanese were visiting the park in the middle of the day and they saw a huge battalion of Civil War soldiers doing their military exercises on a part of the battlefield.  They were ecstatic and went to park headquarters and told the superintendent how neat it was to see a bunch of reinactors doing their thing on the battlefield.  The superintendent said what reenactors.  There were none around according to him and others working in the park.  I'd be interested to see the pics that the tourists took because you know there had to be pictures. LOL.

[21st Century Man]

Good show tonight.

Definitely.  More shows like this please but no Chunga.

[SciFiAuthor]

I read another story where a bunch of Japanese were visiting the park in the middle of the day and they saw a huge battalion of Civil War soldiers doing their military exercises on a part of the battlefield.  They were ecstatic and went to park headquarters and told the superintendent how neat it was to see a bunch of reinactors doing their thing on the battlefield.  The superintendent said what reenactors.  There were none around according to him and others working in the park.  I'd be interested to see the pics that the tourists took because you know there had to be pictures. LOL.

I'd certainly like to take a look at the photos lol. But yeah, very odd battlefield. I didn't like being there, bad vibes, despite spending 8 hours walking around exploring the history.

[GravitySucks]

Night y'all. Thanks for the campfire stories. Enjoyed it more than the show.

[TigerLily]

Good show tonight. Very enjoyable conversations. Thanks fellow Gabsters

[GravitySucks]

Good show tonight. Very enjoyable conversations. Thanks fellow Gabsters

+1

[SciFiAuthor]

Fun night tonight. I'll give Hoagland a chance . . .

[21st Century Man]

Thanks GS - I dropped by and noticed that my favorite gabbers were at it so it seemed an opportune moment to poke my head in.  Suddenly realizing that sounded dirty, lol.

I'm sitting here listening to MitD downloads as I work on stuff, and it occurred to me that Heather hasn't eased up with the "entertainer voice" yet.  I hope she'll just chill out and sit back and -talk to us like people-.  That's the only thing that bugs me about her show, but it's important because it sounds patronizing, like she's talking to children.  Or am I the only one who feels that way?

Anyway I hope you all are having a good time around here; it's good to see humans back in the driver's seat, in this thread at least ;

That is one of the main reasons I stopped posting on this thread and the Art Bell thread  for a while. Trolls, trolls everywhere.  Thank God, most of them are gone.

[Faustina]

I'm sitting here listening to MitD downloads as I work on stuff, and it occurred to me that Heather hasn't eased up with the "entertainer voice" yet.  I hope she'll just chill out and sit back and -talk to us like people-.  That's the only thing that bugs me about her show, but it's important because it sounds patronizing, like she's talking to children.  Or am I the only one who feels that way?

You're not the only one.

[21st Century Man]

Good night all and I enjoyed my time on here as well.  All of you are great. I may drop in on the Hoagland thread for a bit.  Check out the show.  It has been a while.

[Chronaut]

Hi Chronaut. Very nice to see you, Buzzkill.  TigerLily still recommends the movie and suggests watch with healthy skepticism.  Still love ya

It's always lovely to see my favorite TigerLily   I'm all for a walk on the wild side to limber up the neurons and see things from a different perspective, which this film is good for.  But unfortunately it's mostly wrong.  But if it gets people to check the facts and learn about -why- it's wrong, then a lot of good can come from it.  I've had similar hopes for religion, but most people don't bother to look under the hood so now the world is on fire.

I understand what you're saying my time traveling friend but even though reductive materialism is persuasive idealism is not so easily dismissed if examined. Consciousness is the one thing we know exists for sure. I think therefore I am is the starting line for any further understanding. I think some of us are just trying to explore how these things could be true from a perspective beyond dualism, where we're not thinking of consciousness and matter as two different things necessarily.

Don't get me wrong Dr. MD MD - I think the universe is conscious...dualism is an illusion in that sense.  But we get into trouble when we conflate fire with ashes:  consciousness is a phenomenon, not the matter that it utilizes...trying to equate them seems a bit much.  I feel as confident that the universe existed before mankind, as I do that I'm experiencing consciousness - in fact the former is much easier to prove.

[akwilly]

was some great chat you all.

[Chronaut]

Night y'all. Thanks for the campfire stories. Enjoyed it more than the show.

Good show tonight. Very enjoyable conversations. Thanks fellow Gabsters

Yeah I think it's the good folks here that keep me tethered to the show, good times =)

That is one of the main reasons I stopped posting on this thread and the Art Bell thread  for a while. Trolls, trolls everywhere.  Thank God, most of them are gone.

It took a Lot longer than I expected...I guess there are a lot of very bored trolls out there.  If those folks spent half the energy on studying, as they spend on being assholes, this would be a nation of geniuses.

You're not the only one.

I hope that sooner than later, the message will get through:  "Just talk to us like your friends Heather - you can leave the 'show voice' in the circular file."

[ge30542]

I think some Japanese guy was on C2C explaining this. Maybe a year or so ago.

Yea, he's real smart, but have you ever seen a picture of him? He always looks very tired, like he can't hardly keep his eyes open.

[Chronaut]

About two weeks ago her voice changed noticeably, and was more conversational. She might be slipping back a little.

I'm just starting to catch up on the last few weeks of shows; it's encouraging to hear you say that.  Maybe she should smoke some pot...I can think of one broadcaster who learned quite a bit from the magic weed...  =)

WB Chronaut, I always enjoyed your posts.

Thanks SciFi - I've always thought of you as a key member of "the inner sanctum" around here - thoughtful, informed posts, and a good attitude.  It's nice to drop in and chat with you again.

[ge30542]

My wife and I fell in love with Gettysburg and want to return there soon.

What is the address?

[akwilly]

Yea, he's real smart, but have you ever seen a picture of him? He always looks very tired, like he can't hardly keep his eyes open.

I did notice that. I heard he died in a car crash. The cause of the crash was due to a loose piece of dental floss that blinded the driver.

[ge30542]

I did notice that. I heard he died in a car crash. The cause of the crash was due to a loose piece of dental floss that blinded the driver.

You can blind them by putting a windshield in front of their face.

[akwilly]

You can blind them by putting a windshield in front of their face.

Oddly, they are impervious to blindness by science.

[pate]

I listened tonight, in the kitchen while baking an epic scratch v1.1 carrot cake, so my show notes are all about baking temperatures added features from the v1.0 carrot cake, &al unrelated but fascinating things.

I think I am on my 5th Beam-me-yep & Cola, or so.  The cake experiment was illuminating to say the least, and I think I recognized a caller or two, really liked that last one with the "could EVPs be radio interference" question, Not Sure I recognized the voice...  Run-on sentence cont'd, excellent question, excellent answer;  my excellent sollotion/soulotion/solution would be to get some tin-foil or lead or other types of EM radiation deadening barriers (I hear a few feet of dirt work well) and isolate the microphone inside that set-up and see if you still get EVPs.  Too easy!

So hear's the haiku I wrote on the way upstairs to the keyboard:

My brane is drained
And the reptile has a smile.
Double yew, tea ELF?

I'm not going to start a "Heather's Haiku" thread with that one.  I fear that thread would have an Extremely Low Frequency of posts so I will just hide that gem/JEM hear.

Good shoe, though.  Excellent background radiation to listen to while the thing baked and cooled.  Didna make it into the Carrot Cake recipe. 

I ain't ashore that telephonic "radio waves" have any bearing on the outcome of the recipe.  I will note that there were near-excessive caramelisation on the baking pan surfaces, that may lend themselves to synergistic flavor pairings with the Cream Cheese Frosting v1.1 modifications indicated in the mission planning for this recipe. 

Although several other variables may hae abeen at play with that potential outcome, the risk assessment seems favorable (not to trust actuarial tables completely.)

/endAAR

-----

Boot sequence indicated that this musical intar-tube video might be a fun wave-form to explore.  (Beware the Z=Beholder)":


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEDw9xgSmSc

0) {Cyclops smiley}

'pologies

[Taco Bell]

Great show last night, wish there were more like it and less new age shaman stuff. Looking forward to having the caller on for a full show that was a part of the investigation on the upcoming episode of the TV show.

Thought it was great Nick wanted groups to get together and break down the "team" division that exists among investigators. Seems the team aspect of it is more of a chase for money vs a chase for evidence.

[Dr. MD MD]

It's always lovely to see my favorite TigerLily   I'm all for a walk on the wild side to limber up the neurons and see things from a different perspective, which this film is good for.  But unfortunately it's mostly wrong.  But if it gets people to check the facts and learn about -why- it's wrong, then a lot of good can come from it.  I've had similar hopes for religion, but most people don't bother to look under the hood so now the world is on fire.

Don't get me wrong Dr. MD MD - I think the universe is conscious...dualism is an illusion in that sense.  But we get into trouble when we conflate fire with ashes:  consciousness is a phenomenon, not the matter that it utilizes...trying to equate them seems a bit much.  I feel as confident that the universe existed before mankind, as I do that I'm experiencing consciousness - in fact the former is much easier to prove.

The need to see consciousness as an emergent property is just another way of saying that you think matter is fundamental and consciousness is an epiphenomenon that eventually emerges from more complex arrangements of it. However, if basic forms of memory can be found even in water then  perhaps it's not an emergent property but an intrinsic one that only becomes more explicit through greater complexity. Of course the universe existed before mankind but that doesn't necessarily mean that matter existed before consciousness.

[Chronaut]

 

The need to see consciousness as an emergent property is just another way of saying that you think matter is fundamental and consciousness is an epiphenomenon that eventually emerges from more complex arrangements of it.

Not necessarily.  You’re presuming that I’m restricting the idea of consciousness to organic biological systems, but I favor the view that consciousness may take many forms as-yet unknown to us, perhaps in the complex exchange of photons/information among wide dispersions of atoms or subatomic particles, as one speculative example.  I suspect that the universe has always been conscious, because all of the great mystics from Buddha to Krishnamurti suggest this, and they appear to have direct access to this knowledge through a higher form of consciousness.

However, if basic forms of memory can be found even in water then  perhaps it's not an emergent property but an intrinsic one that only becomes more explicit through greater complexity. Of course the universe existed before mankind but that doesn't necessarily mean that matter existed before consciousness.

I think it’s a bit flip to base one’s fundamental ontology on a highly dubious experiment with water.  The idea of “water memory” has been discredited by subsequent failures to reproduce the effect in double-blind trials, and when the researchers in the original study were not present:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_memory

And as a doctor, or purportedly a doctor, doesn’t the idea of homeopathy trouble you?  Would you really want your patients to take water solutions that had been purified of the medicine you’ve prescribed?  Because that’s what this is all about:  homeopathy seeking a scientific basis, and failing to do so:
http://phys.org/news/2013-10-memory.html

I love “out of the box” thinking, and ancient mysticism especially.  But I don’t love New Agers misrepresenting science, physics and chemistry, because that fosters ignorance in the same way that mainstream religion fosters ignorance (of evolution and geology, for example).

[Dr. MD MD]

Not necessarily.  You’re presuming that I’m restricting the idea of consciousness to organic biological systems, but I favor the view that consciousness may take many forms as-yet unknown to us, perhaps in the complex exchange of photons/information among wide dispersions of atoms or subatomic particles, as one speculative example.  I suspect that the universe has always been conscious, because all of the great mystics from Buddha to Krishnamurti suggest this, and they appear to have direct access to this knowledge through a higher form of consciousness.
I think it’s a bit flip to base one’s fundamental ontology on a highly dubious experiment with water.  The idea of “water memory” has been discredited by subsequent failures to reproduce the effect in double-blind trials, and when the researchers in the original study were not present:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_memory

And as a doctor, or purportedly a doctor, doesn’t the idea of homeopathy trouble you?  Would you really want your patients to take water solutions that had been purified of the medicine you’ve prescribed?  Because that’s what this is all about:  homeopathy seeking a scientific basis, and failing to do so:
http://phys.org/news/2013-10-memory.html

I love “out of the box” thinking, and ancient mysticism especially.  But I don’t love New Agers misrepresenting science, physics and chemistry, because that fosters ignorance in the same way that mainstream religion fosters ignorance (of evolution and geology, for example).

First, I'm not a "new ager" attempting defining any sort of ontology. This is Bellgab, not a peer reviewed scientific journal. I'm just wondering and thinking aloud, so to speak. However, how is what you're saying any different? You say you suspect the universe is imbued with consciousness because some mystics said it? How is that scientific?!

Honestly, I think the jury is still out on some of the things you claim are discredited because Wikipedia told you so. If homeopathy is such a sham why do the richest people in the world use it? And those fuckers (unfortunately) seem to live forever. Science is a process and not just a collection of laws.

[Chronaut]

First, I'm not a "new ager" attempting defining any sort of ontology. This is Bellgab, not a peer reviewed scientific journal. I'm just wondering and thinking aloud, so to speak. However, how is what you're saying any different? You say you suspect the universe is imbued with consciousness because some mystics said it? How is that scientific?!

Not one: all.  All of the most highly respected minds in world history, from Saraha to Buddha to Kabir to Christ to Krishnamurti, have all said the same thing.  I find that compelling.  Whenever a significant number of respectable and independent witnesses with no untoward profit motive report the same testimony, a claim merits serious consideration and investigation.  Of course any claims within the realm of subjective consciousness are beyond the physical empirical method, so they can’t be proven by current scientific standards.  But one can verify such claims personally.  I think we need to develop a reliable methodology for evaluating mystical assertions through independent personal replication, because in that respect modern science is a few millennia behind the mystical tradition. 

Honestly, I think the jury is still out on some of the things you claim are discredited because Wikipedia told you so. If homeopathy is such a sham why do the richest people in the world use it? And those fuckers (unfortunately) seem to live forever. Science is a process and not just a collection of laws.

Okay this explains a lot.  I assumed you were a doctor or a medical scientist of some kind.  Sure science is a process.  But homeopathy is not a science.  In fact every effort to independently replicate any experimental evidence indicating the validity of homeopathy has failed.  That’s proof that it doesn’t work.  It’s not like it hasn’t been tried; it’s not some virgin territory that science hasn’t reached into yet.  It has been tried, and it didn’t work.  Time to move on.  I don't know if the rich live longer, but if they do it makes more sense that they live longer because they can afford the best nutrition and medical doctors and treatments.

Anyway lots of people around the world, rich and poor, do all kinds of stupid shit.  Popularity is no indication of veracity.  In fact a stronger argument can probably be made that the more people who believe in something, the less likely it is to be true.  Look how many rich people still believe in “trickle-down economics,” for example.  And the recent national scandal of rich people dodging polio vaccinations and such for their kids.  Being rich doesn’t make people smarter.  It has been proven though that it does make people less charitable, paradoxically:

“Why Are the Poor More Generous?” by Dr. Ken Eisold
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/hidden-motives/201008/why-are-the-poor-more-generous

[Dr. MD MD]

Not one: all.  All of the most highly respected minds in world history, from Saraha to Buddha to Kabir to Christ to Krishnamurti, have all said the same thing.  I find that compelling.  Whenever a significant number of respectable and independent witnesses with no untoward profit motive report the same testimony, a claim merits serious consideration and investigation.  Of course any claims within the realm of subjective consciousness are beyond the physical empirical method, so they can’t be proven by current scientific standards.  But one can verify such claims personally.  I think we need to develop a reliable methodology for evaluating mystical assertions through independent personal replication, because in that respect modern science is a few millennia behind the mystical tradition. 

Okay this explains a lot.  I assumed you were a doctor or a medical scientist of some kind.  Sure science is a process.  But homeopathy is not a science.  In fact every effort to independently replicate any experimental evidence indicating the validity of homeopathy has failed.  That’s proof that it doesn’t work.  It’s not like it hasn’t been tried; it’s not some virgin territory that science hasn’t reached into yet.  It has been tried, and it didn’t work.  Time to move on.  I don't know if the rich live longer, but if they do it makes more sense that they live longer because they can afford the best nutrition and medical doctors and treatments.

Anyway lots of people around the world, rich and poor, do all kinds of stupid shit.  Popularity is no indication of veracity.  In fact a stronger argument can probably be made that the more people who believe in something, the less likely it is to be true.  Look how many rich people still believe in “trickle-down economics,” for example.  And the recent national scandal of rich people dodging polio vaccinations and such for their kids.  Being rich doesn’t make people smarter.  It has been proven though that it does make them more selfish, paradoxically:

“Why Are the Poor More Generous?” by Dr. Ken Eisold
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/hidden-motives/201008/why-are-the-poor-more-generous

Hmmm...you assume a lot and in the process make an ass of you and...well, just you, really. Perhaps you joined the conversation late; didn't read far enough back, etc.? If you had you'd see that the conversation started out with people discussing the possibility of reincarnation and psychic resonance and such ideas and I pointed out how I could vacillate between my rational, scientific mind and my more speculative, philosophical mind (they're the same mind, BTW, before you make an issue out of that). The conversation eventually got around to discussing what consciousness might be and the possibility of psychic resonance through some of the gabber's personal experiences of getting specific feelings at specific places. We were then exploring how we might reconcile these two perspectives. However, you've obviously gotta be the smartest guy in the room so have at it! Tare me a new one! 

You state, "...one can verify such claims personally.  I think we need to develop a reliable methodology for evaluating mystical assertions through independent personal replication, because in that respect modern science is a few millennia behind the mystical tradition." Aren't you contradicting yourself here? How does one scientifically verify these claims personally? What sort of "reliable methodology" could be developed that wouldn't be considered anecdotal by the standards you claim to uphold?

I never claimed or argued for the veracity of homeopathy. It could be and is, by today's scientific standards, bullshit. However, every once in awhile there are paradigm shifts that occur in science that fly in the face of conventional wisdom and those standards change. I don't have all the answers yet. I'm just curious, unlike you. You're not a scientist. You're just a pompous ass trying to keep others thinking in line with what's comfortable for you. 

BTW, you seem to keep wanting to goad me into saying if I'm an actual doctor or not but it's irrelevant here and what good would it do anyway? If I say yes you say I'm a liar. If I say no you say, "See! He was lying." I'd say we're just minds here at Bellgab but we're really just the words our minds left here at a certain point in time. So, it'll have to remain a mystery.