Midnight In The Desert

[Roswells, Art]

I think the only way to decide this is through a dance off.

[Chronaut]

I think you're mistaking realism for cynicism here too. That makes the situation you're observing seem even worse than it actually is. The stupid, stubborn problem is nothing new; it's just worse, relatively speaking, than it was a few decades ago. You can attribute that to a complex, interrelated group of factors as diverse as failing educational systems and the growing embrace of moral relativism by the public.

Is this situation worse in the U.S.? Maybe, but it's not necessarily fatal and probably isn't. Also, all forms of government are irrevocably flawed because they are created by and for flawed people. We're still evolving, right? Give us a little more time. And who knows what is sustainable any more, with all the threats we face? Still, all things considered, I really think you worry too much.

I hope you're right.  My "Doomsday Clock" reads "about five seconds from midnight."  I see the world's most powerful and vastly over-militarized nation crumbling under enormous debt as the last vestiges of the manufacturing sector boards ships overseas, while the wealth inequality problem is accelerating past record highs as our employment outlook continues to slump as college graduates greet a bleak jobs market, and our national infrastructure is crumbling all around us.  Meanwhile, we argue about minor "hot button" talking points written by manipulative dicks, as a new tide of radicalized barbarians infects the world with death and destruction.

It looks to me like the public has been dumbed-down and brainwashed to jump at every command, guaranteeing misrepresentation in politics, while the Washington/coorporate allegiance pilfers the last hope of saving the America from economic armageddon.  If there's a way back from the brink, I don't see it.  What do you think is going to turn this around?  Because to me, the inertia to collapse is so enormous that it seems nothing short of a miracle could prevent us from going by way of the Roman Empire within the next century.

[Chronaut]

I think the only way to decide this is through a dance off.

Too late for that.  This calls for a walk off.  With David Bowie:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8720XS-pquc

[Dr. MD MD]

I think the only way to decide this is through a dance off.

Only if my dance can be the Batusi! 


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaQcSqty17g

[Auslandia]

Yeah but it works on us Northerners because we can't tell an El Paso accent from an Alabama. It's all cowboy to us 

It's fucking pandering is what that is.  The fake political southern accent is insulting.  Obama did it, Hilary does it, Cruz does it... People who take on the traits of their perceived audience are the same types who will just tell people what they want to hear.  Completely empty otherwise

[Dr. MD MD]

Too late for that.  This calls for a walk off.  With David Bowie:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8720XS-pquc

Damn! You win! 

[Dr. MD MD]

It's fucking pandering is what that is.  The fake political southern accent is insulting.  Obama did it, Hilary does it, Cruz does it... People who take on the traits of their perceived audience are the same types who will just tell people what they want to hear.  Completely empty otherwise

The worst is listening to Hilary do it. That even makes my Northern skin crawl  :

[Robert]

Any links to articles or videos regarding this theory?

The books Mortal Error by Bonar Menninger, and The Lone Star and The Accidental Victim by James Reston.  There are Wikipedia entries for Mortal Error and on Colin McLaren, whose work followed it up.

[Jackstar]

A conspiracy to destroy the thread.

Twenty-Five Rules of Disinformation

Note: The first rule and last five (or six, depending on situation) rules are generally not directly within the ability of the traditional disinfo artist to apply. These rules are generally used more directly by those at the leadership, key players, or planning level of the criminal conspiracy or conspiracy to cover up.

1. Hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil.  Regardless of what you know, don't discuss it -- especially if you are a public figure, news anchor,  etc. If it's not reported, it didn't happen,  and you never have to deal with the issues.
2. Become incredulous and indignant.  Avoid discussing key issues and instead focus  on side issues which can be used show the topic  as being critical of some otherwise sacrosanct group or theme. This is also known as the  'How dare you!' gambit.
3. Create rumor mongers.  Avoid discussing issues by describing all charges, regardless of venue or evidence, as mere rumors and wild accusations. Other derogatory terms mutually exclusive of truth may work as well. This method which works especially well with a silent press, because the only way the public  can learn of the facts are through such 'arguable rumors'. If you can associate the material with the Internet, use this fact to certify it a 'wild rumor' from a 'bunch of kids on the Internet' which can have no basis in fact.
4. Use a straw man. Find or create a seeming element of your opponent's   argument which you can easily knock down to make  yourself look good and the opponent to look bad. Either make up an issue you may safely imply exists based on your interpretation of the opponent/opponent arguments/situation, or select the weakest aspect of the weakest charges.  Amplify their significance and destroy them in a way which appears to debunk all the charges, real and fabricated alike, while actually avoiding discussion of the real issues.
5. Sidetrack opponents with name calling and ridicule.  This is also known as the primary 'attack the messenger'  ploy, though other methods qualify as variants of that approach. Associate opponents with unpopular titles such as 'kooks', 'right-wing', 'liberal', 'left-wing', 'terrorists', 'conspiracy buffs',  'radicals', 'militia', 'racists', 'religious fanatics',  'sexual deviates', and so forth. This makes others  shrink from support out of fear of gaining the same label, and you avoid dealing with issues.
6. Hit and Run. In any public forum, make a brief attack of your opponent or the opponent position and then scamper off before an answer can be fielded, or simply ignore any answer. This works extremely well in Internet  and letters-to-the-editor environments where a steady stream of new identities can be called upon without having to explain criticism, reasoning -- simply make an accusation or other  attack, never discussing issues, and never answering any subsequent response, for that would dignify the opponent's viewpoint.
7. Question motives. Twist or amplify any fact which could be taken to imply that the opponent operates out of a hidden personal  agenda or other bias. This avoids discussing issues and forces the accuser on the defensive.
8. Invoke authority. Claim for yourself or associate yourself with authority and present your argument with enough 'jargon' and 'minutia' to illustrate you are 'one who knows', and simply say it isn't so without discussing issues or demonstrating concretely why or citing sources.
9. Play Dumb. No matter what evidence or logical argument is offered, avoid discussing issues except with denials they have any credibility, make any sense, provide any proof, contain or make a point, have logic, or support a conclusion. Mix well for maximum effect.
10. Associate opponent charges with old news. A derivative of the straw man -- usually, in any large-scale matter of high visibility, someone will make charges early on which can be or were already easily dealt with - a kind of investment for the future should the matter not be so easily contained.) Where it can be foreseen, have your own side raise a straw man issue and have it dealt with early on as part of the initial contingency plans. Subsequent charges, regardless of validity or new ground uncovered, can usually then be associated with the original charge and dismissed as simply being a rehash without need to address current issues -- so much the better where the opponent  is or was involved with the original source.
11. Establish and rely upon fall-back positions.  Using a minor matter or element of the facts, take the 'high road' and 'confess' with candor that some innocent mistake, in hindsight, was made -- but that opponents have seized on the opportunity to blow it all out of proportion and imply greater criminalities which, 'just isn't so.' Others can reinforce this on your behalf, later, and even publicly 'call for an end to the nonsense' because you have already 'done the right thing.' Done properly, this can garner sympathy and respect for 'coming clean' and 'owning up' to your mistakes without addressing more serious issues.
12. Enigmas have no solution.  Drawing upon the overall umbrella of events surrounding the crime and the multitude of players and events, paint the entire affair as too complex to solve. This causes those otherwise following the matter to begin to lose interest more quickly without having to address the actual issues.
13. Alice in Wonderland Logic. Avoid discussion of the issues by reasoning backwards or with an apparent deductive logic
which forbears any actual material fact.
14. Demand complete solutions. Avoid the issues by requiring opponents to solve the crime at hand completely, a ploy which works best with issues qualifying for rule 10.
15. Fit the facts to alternate conclusions.  This requires creative thinking unless the crime  was planned with contingency conclusions in place.
16. Vanish evidence and witnesses.  If it does not exist, it is not fact, and you won't have to address the issue.
17. Change the subject. Usually in connection with one of the other ploys  listed here, find a way to side-track the discussion with abrasive or controversial comments in hopes of turning attention to a new, more manageable topic. This works especially well with companions who can  'argue' with you over the new topic and polarize the discussion arena in order to avoid discussing more key issues.
18. Emotionalize, Antagonize, and Goad Opponents. If you can't do anything else, chide and taunt your opponents and draw them into emotional responses which will tend to make them look foolish and overly motivated, and generally render their material somewhat less coherent. Not only will you avoid discussing the issues in the first instance, but even if their emotional response addresses the issue, you can further avoid the issues by then focusing on how 'sensitive they are to criticism.'
19. Ignore proof presented, demand impossible proofs. This is perhaps a variant of the 'play dumb' rule.  Regardless of what material may be presented by an opponent in public forums, claim the material irrelevant  and demand proof that is impossible for the opponent to come by (it may exist, but not be at his disposal, or it may be something which is known to be safely destroyed or withheld, such as a murder weapon.) In order to completely avoid discussing issues, it may be required that you to categorically deny and be critical of media or books as valid sources, deny that witnesses are acceptable, or even deny that statements made by government or other authorities have any meaning or relevance.
20. False evidence. Whenever possible, introduce new facts or clues designed and manufactured to conflict with opponent presentations -- as useful tools to neutralize sensitive issues or impede resolution. This works best when the crime was designed
with contingencies for the purpose, and the facts cannot be easily separated from the fabrications.
21. Call a Grand Jury, Special Prosecutor, or other  empowered investigative body. Subvert the (process) to your benefit and effectively neutralize all sensitive issues without open discussion. Once convened, the evidence and testimony are required to be secret when properly handled. For instance, if you own the prosecuting attorney, it can insure a Grand Jury hears no useful evidence and that the evidence is sealed and unavailable to subsequent investigators. Once a favorable verdict is achieved, the matter can be considered officially closed. Usually, this technique is applied to find the guilty innocent, but it can also be used to obtain charges when seeking to frame a victim.
22. Manufacture a new truth. Create your own expert(s), group(s), author(s), leader(s) or influence existing ones willing to forge new ground via scientific, investigative, or social research or testimony which concludes favorably. In this way, if you must actually address issues, you can do so authoritatively.
23. Create bigger distractions. If the above does not seem to be working to distract from sensitive issues, or to prevent unwanted media coverage of unstoppable  events such as trials, create bigger news stories (or treat them as such) to distract the multitudes.
24. Silence critics. If the above methods do not prevail, consider removing opponents from circulation by some definitive solution so that the need to address issues is removed entirely. This can be by their death, arrest and detention, blackmail or destruction of theircharacter by release of blackmail information, or merely by destroying them financially, emotionally, or severely damaging their health.
25. Vanish. If you are a key holder of secrets or otherwise overly illuminated and you think the heat is getting too hot, to avoid  the issues, vacate the kitchen.

http://www.whale.to/m/disin.html

[Value Of Pi]

I just think that in extreme cases like "Dr. Jonathan Reed's" case, where the intent to commit fraud can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, and the damages collectively are significant and readily calculable, we have a moral responsibility to write some new laws against that crap.  I don't see how it's any different than the laws we already have in place against false advertising.  It just seems twisted that we claim to uphold truth in this country, but we don't lift a finger to defend it.

And I guess I'm just sick of seeing the parasites eating America from the inside out, at every level.  It's like a feeding frenzy from top to bottom, and those who suck the hardest float to the top.  Then they redesign the system to further support the sociopathic way of life at the expense of everyone with a shred of decency.

Yes, we have a serious problem with moral decay, which is probably the root of the problem. Dealing with individual cases as you suggest, however, is not the answer, IMO. The solution would be something much more profound.

BTW, expanding statutes against false advertising to cover "extreme cases" would be a real minefield. False advertising relates to misrepresenting products and services, not ideas. It's more to do with commerce, consumer protection and protecting the viability and integrity of the economic system.

But, you know, they got Capone on tax evasion, not his more horrific crimes. There's always that approach.

[Auslandia]

I hope you're right.  My "Doomsday Clock" reads "about five seconds from midnight."  I see the world's most powerful and vastly over-militarized nation crumbling under enormous debt as the last vestiges of the manufacturing sector boards ships overseas, while the wealth inequality problem is accelerating past record highs as our employment outlook continues to slump as college graduates greet a bleak jobs market, and our national infrastructure is crumbling all around us.  Meanwhile, we argue about minor "hot button" talking points written by manipulative dicks, as a new tide of radicalized barbarians infects the world with death and destruction.

It looks to me like the public has been dumbed-down and brainwashed to jump at every command, guaranteeing misrepresentation in politics, while the Washington/coorporate allegiance pilfers the last hope of saving the America from economic armageddon.  If there's a way back from the brink, I don't see it.  What do you think is going to turn this around?  Because to me, the inertia to collapse is so enormous that it seems nothing short of a miracle could prevent us from going by way of the Roman Empire within the next century.

The vast majority of the public is not paying attention to any of this let alone waiting to jump on command.  They're reading about Hollywood breakups, watching Dancing With The Stars and playing iPhone games.

[Dr. MD MD]

Yes, we have a serious problem with moral decay, which is probably the root of the problem. Dealing with individual cases as you suggest, however, is not the answer, IMO. The solution would be something much more profound.

BTW, expanding statutes against false advertising to cover "extreme cases" would be a real minefield. False advertising relates to misrepresenting products and services, not ideas. It's more to do with commerce, consumer protection and protecting the viability and integrity of the economic system.

But, you know, they got Capone on tax evasion, not his more horrific crimes. There's always that approach.

Moral decay? Send the IRS after people?! Honestly, you sound like a NAZI or part of the politburo at least 

[Dr. MD MD]

The vast majority of the public is not paying attention to any of this let alone waiting to jump on command.  They're reading about Hollywood breakups, watching Dancing With The Stars and playing iPhone games.

Don't say that too loud because that's the really terrifying thing to him, that we represent the more alert 

[GravitySucks]

The vast majority of the public is not paying attention to any of this let alone waiting to jump on command.  They're reading about Hollywood breakups, watching Dancing With The Stars and playing iPhone games.

The rest of us are on BellGab.

[Value Of Pi]

I hope you're right.  My "Doomsday Clock" reads "about five seconds from midnight."  I see the world's most powerful and vastly over-militarized nation crumbling under enormous debt as the last vestiges of the manufacturing sector boards ships overseas, while the wealth inequality problem is accelerating past record highs as our employment outlook continues to slump as college graduates greet a bleak jobs market, and our national infrastructure is crumbling all around us.  Meanwhile, we argue about minor "hot button" talking points written by manipulative dicks, as a new tide of radicalized barbarians infects the world with death and destruction.

It looks to me like the public has been dumbed-down and brainwashed to jump at every command, guaranteeing misrepresentation in politics, while the Washington/coorporate allegiance pilfers the last hope of saving the America from economic armageddon.  If there's a way back from the brink, I don't see it.  What do you think is going to turn this around?  Because to me, the inertia to collapse is so enormous that it seems nothing short of a miracle could prevent us from going by way of the Roman Empire within the next century.

It's been five seconds to midnight as far back as I can remember. Fortunately, or maybe unfortunately, the second hand is stuck right there. And we're stuck having to live with that. I hope that makes you feel better.

[Auslandia]

The rest of us are on BellGab.

Jesus, ain't that the truth lol

[Value Of Pi]

Moral decay? Send the IRS after people?! Honestly, you sound like a NAZI or part of the politburo at least 

Tax evasion happened to be the only charge that would stick. All I'm suggesting is that criminals quite often commit a variety of crimes; there's more than one way to go after them.

And what have you got against the phrase "moral decay" or the concept it represents? Or morality, for that matter, since that's what is decaying? You're pretty quick on the fascist/communist button when something strikes you the wrong way.

[Dr. MD MD]

Tax evasion happened to be the only charge that would stick. All I'm suggesting is that criminals quite often commit a variety of crimes; there's more than one way to go after them.

And what have you got against the phrase "moral decay" or the concept it represents? Or morality, for that matter, since that's what is decaying? You're pretty quick on the fascist/communist button when something strikes you the wrong way.

Just sounds like the kind of moral decadence the commies and NAZIS were talking about and I'm more of a live and let live kinda guy 

[Chronaut]

Yes, we have a serious problem with moral decay, which is probably the root of the problem. Dealing with individual cases as you suggest, however, is not the answer, IMO. The solution would be something much more profound.

I'm all ears.  Lay it on me.

BTW, expanding statutes against false advertising to cover "extreme cases" would be a real minefield. False advertising relates to misrepresenting products and services, not ideas. It's more to do with commerce, consumer protection and protecting the viability and integrity of the economic system.

Isn't a book a "product?"  I just think it's sick and obviously wrong to pilfer money from people by concocting some retarded story that undermines the credibility of everyone honestly reporting related stories.  And I think it says something really shitty about our culture that we're cool with con artists - those reeking pieces of crap should be held accountable.

[Chronaut]

Don't say that too loud because that's the really terrifying thing to him, that we represent the more alert 

Haha...have we met before? 

[albrecht]

The vast majority of the public is not paying attention to any of this let alone waiting to jump on command.  They're reading about Hollywood breakups, watching Dancing With The Stars and playing iPhone games.

More reasons why I'm against 'democracy.' Frankly I think it should be HARDER for people to vote and, granted it would not be legal, but I would not be adverse for poll taxes, proof of citizenship, residency, and real property ownership to vote. Also, no more 'motor voter' registration and no consolidation of elections to make it easy to vote in many elections or bond issues. Also, no ballots or instruction in any language other than English (and braille,)  no "straight party" vote ticket option, and no political party appearing on the ballot next to a person's name. And no more direct election of Senators (repeal the 17th Amendment.)

[Value Of Pi]

Just sounds like the kind of moral decadence the commies and NAZIS were talking abut and I'm more of a live and let live kinda guy 

Yes, this is part of the problem. Morality is associated with repressive or totalitarian societies as opposed to "doing the right thing." And then there were the anarchists, who 100 years ago had a big image problem because of the word "anarchy." Many were actually "live and let live" kinda guys. Assumptions. assumptions.

[albrecht]

Yes, this is part of the problem. Morality is associated with repressive or totalitarian societies as opposed to "doing the right thing." And then there were the anarchists, who 100 years ago had a big image problem because of the word "anarchy." Many were actually "live and let live" kinda guys. Assumptions. assumptions.

Some of the bombings and assassinations might've tarnished the 'anarchist' brand, but I hear what you are saying.

[Dr. MD MD]

Yes, this is part of the problem. Morality is associated with repressive or totalitarian societies as opposed to "doing the right thing." And then there were the anarchists, who 100 years ago had a big image problem because of the word "anarchy." Many were actually "live and let live" kinda guys. Assumptions. assumptions.

Fair enough, Squire 

Ever read Orwell's essays from the time?

[Value Of Pi]

I'm all ears.  Lay it on me.

And the Prophet Pi did come upon BellGab and there did he reveal The Answer unto the unwashed throngs of keypounders. And lo did they reject his words and call him a Nazi, a Commie and all manner of unclean things. And thence did he withdraw, to lick his wounds and seek inspiration again.

Isn't a book a "product?"  I just think it's sick and obviously wrong to pilfer money from people by concocting some retarded story that undermines the credibility of everyone honestly reporting related stories.  And I think it says something really shitty about our culture that we're cool with con artists - those reeking pieces of crap should be held accountable.

Yes, a book is a product. If you advertise that you are selling an oversized, autographed, leather-bound edition for $9.95 and it's actually a small, used, paperback with notes in the margins for $16.95, you're in trouble. But any lies contained within are just fine.

[Dr. MD MD]

And the Prophet Pi did come upon BellGab and there did he reveal The Answer unto the unwashed throngs of keypounders. And lo did they reject his words and call him a Nazi, a Commie and all manner of unclean things. And thence did he withdraw, to lick his wounds and seek inspiration again.

Yes, a book is a product. If you advertise that you are selling an oversized, autographed, leather-bound edition for $9.95 and it's actually a small, used, paperback with notes in the margins for $16.95, you're in trouble. But any lies contained within are just fine.

I said Nazi and commie-LIKE! Jeesh! People can be so sensitive. Fine! Take your ball and go home. We'll just wait here patiently for the next prophet  :

[Roswells, Art]

I call this one Blue Steel

[norland2424]

hey that story show is on the stream now lol

[VtaGeezer]

I know that Art was entirely against the restitution of the Fairness Doctrine stuff back in the 90s, but the consequences of repealing it have been disastrous.  People are now getting "opinion" instead of "news," and we can't make responsible political decisions when our facts are all fucked up.  Thus:  our government today.

I think I saw a clip and thought that very thing.  I like Spacey's work; I do wish people would stop trying to fake a Southern accent though - it can't be done.  Even Southerners screw it up when they try to exaggerate it.

Spot on again. RR lifted the Fairness Doctrine and within months Limbaugh (with producer Ailes) hit the national air lobbing incendiaries at Democrats, unions, and teachers for three hours a day in workplaces all over.  Bosses loved it because there were no more arguments over music.  Humor aimed at Clinton morphed gradually into viciousness and the folks loved it.  Then Ailes begat Fox News and a few years on, we hated each across ideological lines like not since the 1850s. It looks damn near unfixable now. I agree, too, about Spacey's series but that hideous Southern accent he fakes made it unwatchable for me after two or three episodes. 

[trostol]

lol was gonna say the sound was awful..but my volume was down