SAE affair "Buckhorn Boys Go to College"

[yumyumtree]

So I apologize if somebody else has started a thread on this and I missed it.  Maybe MV can merge them.

When I first heard of this deal with these SAE brothers leading a song on a bus that included a word no longer in decent use(unless you'r a rap artist, of course) and a reference to lynching, I was shocked and outraged, like most people. I found it especially curious that everybody else on the bus just went along with it.  It occurred to me it might be a hoax.  It wasn't. I thought that the college president's actions were a little rash, but thought, "well, these private institutions can handle things as they wish--people don't have to have due process as they would in a court of law." I was also concerned about the first amendment implications, but thought that since they mentioned lynching, that overrides free speech concerns.

I concluded that probably the most likely reason nobody on the bus challenged them is that they are the kinds of guys people don't challenge, and also alcohol was probably involved. Everybody went to high school with obnoxious, arrogant people like that.  Usually they outgrow it by college. A lot of times, in small towns especially, their parents are affluent and influential and able to use their influence to keep them out of major trouble, or else they're really good in sports, often both. In a town I lived in in the 80s in Montana, there was a group known as the "Buckhorn Boys" because of the brand of cheap beer they drank. I was out of high school myself by then, but these guys made the news from time to time with their hooliganism. There were allegations that they sexually assaulted a developementally disabled girl.  I don't know what became of that, probably dropped due to lack of evidence.  Law enforcement there weren't the sharpest knives in the drawer, either.  That's why I haven't mentioned the name of the town.

But now everybody's lawyered up and poking around SAE houses on other campuses, even though there evidently black SAE brothers on other campuses who claimed they hadn't seen any racism. So now, in my opinion, we're looking at a months-long witch hunt-fishing expedition, all dealing with speech, not actions and we'll be hearing about it for 20 years.

I've noticed that a lot of people on talk radio aren't touching this, either because its such a hot button issue, or more likely, they'd rather talk about Hillary or Tom Cotton.

[albrecht]

So I apologize if somebody else has started a thread on this and I missed it.  Maybe MV can merge them.

When I first heard of this deal with these SAE brothers leading a song on a bus that included a word no longer in decent use(unless you'r a rap artist, of course) and a reference to lynching, I was shocked and outraged, like most people. I found it especially curious that everybody else on the bus just went along with it.  It occurred to me it might be a hoax.  It wasn't. I thought that the college president's actions were a little rash, but thought, "well, these private institutions can handle things as they wish--people don't have to have due process as they would in a court of law." I was also concerned about the first amendment implications, but thought that since they mentioned lynching, that overrides free speech concerns.

I concluded that probably the most likely reason nobody on the bus challenged them is that they are the kinds of guys people don't challenge, and also alcohol was probably involved. Everybody went to high school with obnoxious, arrogant people like that.  Usually they outgrow it by college. A lot of times, in small towns especially, their parents are affluent and influential and able to use their influence to keep them out of major trouble, or else they're really good in sports, often both. In a town I lived in in the 80s in Montana, there was a group known as the "Buckhorn Boys" because of the brand of cheap beer they drank. I was out of high school myself by then, but these guys made the news from time to time with their hooliganism. There were allegations that they sexually assaulted a developementally disabled girl.  I don't know what became of that, probably dropped due to lack of evidence.  Law enforcement there weren't the sharpest knives in the drawer, either.  That's why I haven't mentioned the name of the town.

But now everybody's lawyered up and poking around SAE houses on other campuses, even though there evidently black SAE brothers on other campuses who claimed they hadn't seen any racism. So now, in my opinion, we're looking at a months-long witch hunt-fishing expedition, all dealing with speech, not actions and we'll be hearing about it for 20 years.

I've noticed that a lot of people on talk radio aren't touching this, either because its such a hot button issue, or more likely, they'd rather talk about Hillary or Tom Cotton.

It wasn't so surprising as kids, especially drunk ones, do stupid things. You should hear songs rugby teams sing, as well as fraternities etc. Crass? Offensive? Disgusting? Yep, but it happens. Maybe it should go a way and it likely will as times change (then again we seem to getting a more coarse culture so it could be such talk just becomes normal in all society- not just in adolescent and college guys.)

Actual crimes, like rape allegations, hazing deaths, and things like that, worry me far more than offensive songs- especially when sung in private. Also, when they tear up places hosting their parties, but, I guess, as long as they pay (or have parents who will pay) they will continue to do so. But especially angry when crimes, like rape etc, are ignored because of someone's wealth or societal influence. Having said that simply because someone is white or rich doesn't mean all accusations are true (recall Duke rape case or the UVA Rollingstone stuff) or that they shouldn't be treated with the same legal system or withholding of judgement until a trial. But football players etc getting special treatment is just wrong.

I was more interested in how they were kicked out of college (by a tweet by the President of the university) so quickly. No hearing? No review board? Etc. And being kicked out of the house so quickly (I've had tenants that haven't paid rent and it took months+ to get they out of a house. Normally you have to post a notice, get them served by the JP, get a judgement from a court, then evict.) I don't know tenant landlord law in Oklahoma but I would bet you don't get 24 hour notice to clear out or a landlord or owner can simply change locks.)

Now some have an attorney and the papers say that the two "withdrew" from University (which would make more sense because I find it hard to believe you can be kicked out of a public institution for speech made in private- at least without a hearing or some trial or process.)

I also find "interesting" the people protesting had many people there wearing Greek letters from various all-black fraternities and sororities;  many of whom have chapters, or were started, at "traditionally black" colleges. Nobody protests that. Could you imagine if a college called itself "traditionally white" or if a "white" Greek organization actually called itself and advertised itself in public as "all black?"

[NowhereInTime]

So I apologize if somebody else has started a thread on this and I missed it.  Maybe MV can merge them.

When I first heard of this deal with these SAE brothers leading a song on a bus that included a word no longer in decent use(unless you'r a rap artist, of course) and a reference to lynching, I was shocked and outraged, like most people. I found it especially curious that everybody else on the bus just went along with it.  It occurred to me it might be a hoax.  It wasn't. I thought that the college president's actions were a little rash, but thought, "well, these private institutions can handle things as they wish--people don't have to have due process as they would in a court of law." I was also concerned about the first amendment implications, but thought that since they mentioned lynching, that overrides free speech concerns.

I concluded that probably the most likely reason nobody on the bus challenged them is that they are the kinds of guys people don't challenge, and also alcohol was probably involved. Everybody went to high school with obnoxious, arrogant people like that.  Usually they outgrow it by college. A lot of times, in small towns especially, their parents are affluent and influential and able to use their influence to keep them out of major trouble, or else they're really good in sports, often both. In a town I lived in in the 80s in Montana, there was a group known as the "Buckhorn Boys" because of the brand of cheap beer they drank. I was out of high school myself by then, but these guys made the news from time to time with their hooliganism. There were allegations that they sexually assaulted a developementally disabled girl.  I don't know what became of that, probably dropped due to lack of evidence.  Law enforcement there weren't the sharpest knives in the drawer, either.  That's why I haven't mentioned the name of the town.

But now everybody's lawyered up and poking around SAE houses on other campuses, even though there evidently black SAE brothers on other campuses who claimed they hadn't seen any racism. So now, in my opinion, we're looking at a months-long witch hunt-fishing expedition, all dealing with speech, not actions and we'll be hearing about it for 20 years.

I've noticed that a lot of people on talk radio aren't touching this, either because its such a hot button issue, or more likely, they'd rather talk about Hillary or Tom Cotton.

The "private school" to which you refer was the University of Oklahoma in Norman.  A tiny place of 31,000.  I make this point because this is one of the premiere public universities in this country and cannot tolerate this garbage.

And as for "due process"; you're correct. Fraternities are chartered nationally but only exist on any campus at the discretion of the University.  They have no absolutely rights that supercede the university as they have no standing.

This was a bunch of obnoxious, drunken kids who embarrassed me as a white man and as an American.  I wish people would stop passing this shit down generation to generation.

[VtaGeezer]

The bottom line here isn't simply that they used a taboo but common slur; it was the truly ugly meaning of the whole chant.  In 2015, no one raised north of the Rio Grande could utter those lyrics and not know what they were celebrating.  Any organization accepting its use has no place on public property or receiving any kind of deference from a public institution.  I was heartened to see the boom truck pulling the letters off their UO chapter house within hours of the video going viral.  Good for Pres. David Boren; he was class act when he was a US Senator too; unlike the clown car buffoons OK sends to Washington now.  Now they're lawyering up..."free speech"...I think that's wonderful.  These jerks are so f'ing full of themselves that they're going to openly defend using a chant about lynching and segregation.

[albrecht]

The "private school" to which you refer was the University of Oklahoma in Norman.  A tiny place of 31,000.  I make this point because this is one of the premiere public universities in this country and cannot tolerate this garbage.

And as for "due process"; you're correct. Fraternities are chartered nationally but only exist on any campus at the discretion of the University.  They have no absolutely rights that supercede the university as they have no standing.

This was a bunch of obnoxious, drunken kids who embarrassed me as a white man and as an American.  I wish people would stop passing this shit down generation to generation.

Premiere public university ? Sorry had to be said. But, according to you, landlord-tenant laws don't apply to renters if they are in a fraternity? I am unsure on these details (no articles mention it) but was the house owned by the national chapter, the local or alumni, or by the university itself? In any event- where can a landlord evict a person without a notice, a hearing, (usually in most states you need to even get a judge to issue an eviction judgement?) And how can a person be kicked out of a public university for something said in private? Or does the 1st Amendment go out the window also because they are drunk white a*sholes? No hearing? No trial? Nothing except a twitter statement from the President of said august  institution saying they are kicked out? Is their tuition refunded? Does this same standard apply to other people, including professors or ta's, who might use language that is offensive in private? Are the all-black fraternities banned (how is that allowed and accepted? A charter and public statements about being "all black" or "traditionally black"?) Sure the national SAE might have the right to kick them out of the group (I don't know their charter or rules but that is a private group) but to kick out of housing and to kick out of school so quickly? I find that hard to believe is legal. If so I want to invest in rental units in OK because in every other state (some harder than others) is it a PAIN to get rid of bad tenants- even if they aren't paying the rent or tearing up the place.

[VtaGeezer]

This was a bunch of obnoxious, drunken kids who embarrassed me as a white man and as an American.  I wish people would stop passing this shit down generation to generation.

I saw nothing in the video that indicated they were drunk.  Looked like they were stone sober riding a bus to some event; there girls on the bus too.

[FightTheFuture]

Nothing surprises me anymore. Certainly not a bus full of privileged redneck fool's regurgitating a despicable ditty that's probably been around that fraternity for generations. Next.

[yumyumtree]

I saw nothing in the video that indicated they were drunk.  Looked like they were stone sober riding a bus to some event; there girls on the bus too.

I know.  I just assumed alcohol was involved, but it may not have been. But whether it was or not, people aregenerally held accountable for things they do drunk, and rightly so.

And yes, by "private institution", I meant the frat, not the school.

[albrecht]

I know.  I just assumed alcohol was involved, but it may not have been. But whether it was or not, people aregenerally held accountable for things they do drunk, and rightly so.

And yes, by "private institution", I meant the frat, not the school.

It seemed to me alcohol was involved but that just might be me and knowing the general particulars:
1) fraternity
2) bus trip
3) college
4) offensive chants/songs
But, as mentioned, alcohol doesn't excuse it. Although alcohol can be a mitigating factor (why, for right or wrong, crimes done when drunk are sometimes charged as lesser crimes or juries are less likely to go hard on them. It took several decades, for example, for drunk drivers who get in accidents to get real punishment and even now it can be a relative slap-on-the-wrist.))

[yumyumtree]

Debra Saunders had a good piece on this today. I'll post it in a few days when I have more time.

[yumyumtree]

www.theindependent.com/opinion/columnists/debra-j.-saunders-racist-chant-vile-but-is-it-free/article_e73742b0-cc13-11e4-ad02-ab4bd2688cf9.html[/url

Holy cow, that was so long, I can't believe I got it all right and it works.

[Gd5150]

Holy cow, that was so long, I can't believe I got it all

Nominated for the top right corner.

[yumyumtree]

Why is this thread in "pollitics"?  I don't think I put it there originally.

[NowhereInTime]

Why is this thread in "pollitics"?  I don't think I put it there originally.

Someone's feelings somewhere must've gotten hurt. Means banishment to the Politics threads. Forget ever seeing your loved ones again...

[yumyumtree]

I can kind of see putting it in politics, but the ironic thing is that things like this shouldn't be about politics.  They should be about right and wrong and what really happened.  But of course by the time the media and the agendized get done with it, it's politics.