Do You Believe In GOD

[FightTheFuture]

Loving my antibiotics and Android devices.

One day I'll be loving my rocket-pants and moon-portal.

You and me, both!

[wr250]

Loving my antibiotics and Android devices.

One day I'll be loving my rocket-in-my-pants and moon goatse-portal.

fixed

[Kelt]

You and me, both!

I think we can agree, then, that science delivers.

One day science will fix amputees too, and with a choice of genetic or bionic prosthetics... and in a variety of colours. Hot pink legs for the ladies, Schwarzenegger arms for the dudes

All hail science!


http://youtu.be/CDsNZJTWw0w

[Tarbaby]

Fine moving honest posts here from everyone, on both sides. Except for you water1, god doesn't like short posts.  :-) Applause to CCuthor, DPS and Area51Drone. And others I'm forgetting.

From an empirical perspective Mankind's psyche including the vast subconscious is full of the same drives that got us to where we are. Violent, vicious, clever, sometimes cooperative,, at times compassionate,  etc. but the source of these impulses is in the subconscious not in the daily waking consciousness. Sweeping archetypical, powerful. So the conscious mind, not knowing where these strong urges for "good" or "evil"come from (Actually they come from the Freudian want/need hierarchy) attributes them to massive external godlike entities like "god" or "Satan". And have done so for millennia. Thus religions are born, Flourish, and evolve. on every continent going back  before recorded history began.
We are basically ruled by fear; advancement toward pleasure and avoidance of pain. Where is your God now, Moses?;-)

[b_dubb]

re: the Bible and End Times predictions/prophecies

The Bible is sufficiently vague that if you wanted to see prophecy there you'd have ample opportunity to do so.  And people tend to forget that people have been saying Jesus was going to come back since 34 AD/CE.  Most who were there for the crucifixion thought Christ would return in their lifetimes.  Didn't work out that way.

[FightTheFuture]

I think we can agree, then, that science delivers.

One day science will fix amputees too, and with a choice of genetic or bionic prosthetics... and in a variety of colours. Hot pink legs for the ladies, Schwarzenegger arms for the dudes

All hail science!


http://youtu.be/CDsNZJTWw0w

Absolutely!! Nobody loves science more than I, that I can assure you. And I thank God FOR it.

I, however, would caution you against allowing it to be your "god".

[wr250]

Where is your God now, Moses?;-)

[Kelt]

Absolutely!! Nobody loves science more than I, that I can assure you. And I thank God FOR it.

I, however, would caution you against allowing it to be your "god".

Now why would you thank 'god' for someone else's work?

If I have a god, and I don't, it would be science.

I don't though.

But if I did, it would be science.

Not that I do.

But science, yay!

[FightTheFuture]

Now why would you thank 'god' for someone else's work?

If I have a god, and I don't, it would be science.

I don't though.

But if I did, it would be science.

Not that I do.

But science, yay!

Yay, science. I agree. Now, tell me how the Shroud of Turin was created. You know...using all this advanced science and stuff. Should be pretty easy, right? Don`t worry; I`ll wait.

[SciFiAuthor]

Religion is a series of fall-back positions as science makes inroads into the field of ignorance.

As science advances, religion must increasingly fall back and back and back, either abandoning previously held positions or simply jamming their fingers in their ears and denying the evidence presented by science in order to maintain their increasingly ludicrous forward positions.

Thunder and lightning, religious folks, ... the gods aren't angry.

Depends on which science. Couple aspects of physic's quantum theory with simulated reality concepts from computer science and add in some philosophical posits -- all based on science and reason -- and the existence of a God ends up almost a certainty.

[Kelt]

Yay, science. I agree. Now, tell me how the Shroud of Turin was created. You know...using all this advanced science and stuff. Should be pretty easy, right? Don`t worry; I`ll wait.

I'm not a scientist (although my degree is in a science), I merely enjoy the rewards of their labour

You would, then, have to ask a scientist rather than me

I would ask, however, how one can be sure that the imprint on the shroud... assuming it's real, 2000 years old, and not in any way a fabrication... how can you be sure that the generic bearded image is that of a certain Jesus Christ, assuming such a man lived at all?

Could it not be Achmed the Goat-worrier, or Sahib the Dung Merchant?

I mean, it's not even as though Christians know what colour Jesus, if he existed, might have been.  So keeping that in mind, they aren't going to know what he looked like if they can't even agree on his race.


Lot of questions surrounding the shroud, none of which have particularly compelling 'answers'.

[Kelt]

Depends on which science. Couple aspects of physic's quantum theory with simulated reality concepts from computer science and add in some philosophical posits -- all based on science and reason -- and the existence of a God ends up almost a certainty.

I'm not suggesting a hypothetical god doesn't exist. In fact I'm willing to concede that a hypothetical god absolutely exists.

It's only when reality kicks in that we see the collapse of the concept.

[FightTheFuture]

I'm not a scientist (although my degree is in a science), I merely enjoy the rewards of their labour

You would, then, have to ask a scientist rather than me

They`ve been asked. they have no answers to explain it. Well, I should say, some have no answers. The ones that have spent much of their lives studying it DO know how it was created. It was supernatural energy that created it. EXACTLY as described in the Holy Bible when Jesus rose from the dead after 3 days (and there`s considerable evidence of that event as well).

I would ask, however, how one can be sure that the imprint on the shroud... assuming it's real, 2000 years old, and not in any way a fabrication... how can you be sure that the generic bearded image is that of a certain Jesus Christ, assuming such a man lived at all?

Could it not be Achmed the Goat-worrier, or Sahib the Dung Merchant?

We know for absolute certainty that Jesus lived, had a significant following, was crucified, and that a fair number of people witnessed his presence after he died of the cross. These are absolute facts not in dispute by nearly every scholar alive. We also know approximately how Jesus appeared. Not EXACTLY, but reasonably close.

Lot of questions surrounding the shroud, none of which have particularly compelling 'answers'.

Seriously, you really need to do some research. You might actually find some answers that will...well...change your perspective

You might start with a book by Gary R. Habermos, Ph.D. and Michael R. LIcona, Ph.D., The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus.

[DigitalPigSnuggler]

We know for absolute certainty that Jesus lived, had a significant following, was crucified, and that a fair number of people witnessed his presence after he died of the cross. These are absolute facts not in dispute by nearly every scholar alive. We also know approximately how Jesus appeared. Not EXACTLY, but reasonably close.

None of that is true.  Religious people, like conservatives, are about belief and feelings, not facts.

[Bart Ell]

How about those (insert local sports team here)? Do you think they have what it takes to win the (insert ultimate prize here) this year?

What do you say you and I take a relaxed attitude towards work and watch the baseball match on TV. The NY Mets are my favorite squadron.

[eddie dean]

How about those (insert local sports team here)? Do you think they have what it takes to win the (insert ultimate prize here) this year?

What do you say you and I take a relaxed attitude towards work and watch the baseball match on TV. The NY Mets are my favorite squadron.

I'm greatly offended by this comment. The Mets are a myth! 

Reported

[Bart Ell]

[Kelt]

They`ve been asked. they have no answers to explain it. Well, I should say, some have no answers. The ones that have spent much of their lives studying it DO know how it was created. It was supernatural energy that created it. EXACTLY as described in the Holy Bible when Jesus rose from the dead after 3 days (and there`s considerable evidence of that event as well).

rotflmao.

Genuine scientists have claimed that the shroud was 'created by supernatural energy'?

That doesn't sound very scientific at all...  rarely have I seen a scientist claim magic as a methodology.

We know for absolute certainty that Jesus lived, had a significant following, was crucified, and that a fair number of people witnessed his presence after he died of the cross. These are absolute facts not in dispute by nearly every scholar alive. We also know approximately how Jesus appeared. Not EXACTLY, but reasonably close.

No we don't. Not at all. Outside the Bible and some VERY dubious 'Josephus' addendums we have next to no independent verifications whatsoever.  Even the Romans fail to mention nailing the son of god to a tree.

Seriously, you really need to do some research. You might actually find some answers that will...well...change your perspective

You might start with a book by Gary R. Habermos, Ph.D. and Michael R. LIcona, Ph.D., The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus.

You're assuming that I'm not familiar with this particular argument, and you're assuming wrongly.

[MV/Liberace!]

This is the christian's bullshit answer to every thing that doesn't make sense in the bible.  "It is god's plan - who are we to question god?"    Fuck that shit.   Why does "god" allow a baby to be raped and tortured by some sick fuck?  What kind of plan is that?   

God vs Satan is a good one, but here are just a few of the other problems in the  "bible:"

Predestination/No Free Will - If god knows you're going to go to hell, why does he create you in the first place?
God kills kids during passover (and why does he need doors to be marked with blood - doesn't god know who to kill and not to kill without some messy blood?
The story of Job - Why does god need to prove to satan that Job won't forsake him?  Oh, let's just let satan fuck shit up in Job's life just to prove a point.

Christianity is bullshit.   Why do you believe in a book that was compiled from separate texts a thousand years after Christ (if he even existed in the first place) died?   Why do you believe any of the stories, like Noah's Ark or the virgin birth when the same stories existed long before they were written in the books included in the bible?

Does god exist?   I don't think so.  But who am I to say.  If "it" does, I don't think anyone knows WTF it is and it's just playing some massive game with us.  I think the only choice anyone can really make is to be agnostic, because it is something that none of us can possibly know.   So I call myself "agnostic leaning atheist."

I'm more inclined to believe that there is something that flows through and connects everything than some sentient being controlling the multiverse.   I'd rather believe in Star Wars "force" if I had to choose some religion.

This, pretty much.

[RealCool Daddio]

They`ve been asked. they have no answers to explain it. Well, I should say, some have no answers. The ones that have spent much of their lives studying it DO know how it was created. It was supernatural energy that created it. EXACTLY as described in the Holy Bible when Jesus rose from the dead after 3 days (and there`s considerable evidence of that event as well).

Not entirely accurate - it would be TIME TRAVELLING supernatural energy that created it, the most awesome of all the supernatural energies.  Three separate carbon dating tests put the shroud's age at about 700 years - coincidentally right around the time it was discovered:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiocarbon_14_dating_of_the_Shroud_of_Turin

Yay science!

[eddie dean]

I'm convinced!
WWJAD. (What Would Jesus Alou Do)?
How about  hit .280  in his 15 year career. Is that good? Seems like it should be a bit higher, being the savior and all.
I guess we're not meant to know. 

[DigitalPigSnuggler]

Outside the Bible

I think it's worth expanding on this, for people who are not as knowledgeable about it as you are.

Essentially all in the bible that relates to the historical Jesus is found in the four Gospels.  Kelt is not merely dismissing the veracity of these texts as being untrustworthy biblical bullshit; there are several reasons why they are highly unreliable as historical references.  Not least among those reasons is that they were never intended to be viewed that way.  As elsewhere in the bible, they present apocryphal stories to illustrate points.  They are folklore, not intended to be taken literally ("Blessed are the cheesemakers!").  It is because of this reason that they contain demonstrably erroneous information, and are clearly publicity that pushes Jesus as a messianic figure.  No serious academic takes anything in the Gospels at face value in the absence of supporting evidence, and as Kelt points out, there is little historically-credible evidence that Jesus even existed other than a sardonic reference in passing by Josephus, and a belief that the crucifixion must be true based on the criterion of embarrassment. 

[Bart Ell]

.280  in his 15 year career. Is that good? Seems like it should be a bit higher, being the savior and all.

Way better than that French knockoff, Ivan Of Jesus and his .254 or the new junior French version, Ivan Of Jesus Jr.





France makes a great pizza punch but their knockoff Jesuses (Jesi?) suck.

[aldousburbank]

Whatevers mang, I see God all the time. Wish The Dude would slow down on the freeways though.

[Camazotz Automat]

I AM right here.

In your midst.

Jesus H. Christ.

What God gotta do? Eh?

[Avi]

Yes, of course. I am the Orthodox Jew who reads here as a guilty, erm...well, I don't know if pleasure is the right word, exactly. For much of the content, I have to keep my eyes closed. 

[b_dubb]

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodicy

[FightTheFuture]

rotflmao.

Genuine scientists have claimed that the shroud was 'created by supernatural energy'?

That doesn't sound very scientific at all...  rarely have I seen a scientist claim magic as a methodology.

No we don't. Not at all. Outside the Bible and some VERY dubious 'Josephus' addendums we have next to no independent verifications whatsoever.  Even the Romans fail to mention nailing the son of god to a tree.


You're assuming that I'm not familiar with this particular argument, and you're assuming wrongly.

Yeah, real live scientists. Because simply put, there is no other explanation. Hey, I was an ardent skeptic years ago, and though my faith, in no way, hinges on the legitimacy of the Shroud, I now believe it is authentic.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/scientists-say-turin-shroud-is-supernatural-6279512.html

You might also enjoy hearing what STURP had to say:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/publiccatholic/2013/05/member-of-original-sturp-team-talks-about-the-shroud-of-turin/




Additionally, there really is no rational argument to dispute the fact that Jesus was a real person who lived and was crucified. There are numerous non-Christian sources (everyone from Josephus to Lucian and Tacitus to Talmud) that mention Jesus and his crucifixion. And that`s not even referencing the greatest scholars of our time -- many of which are agnostic and atheist -- who concede that Jesus lived, was crucified and put in a tomb.

[FightTheFuture]

Not entirely accurate - it would be TIME TRAVELLING supernatural energy that created it, the most awesome of all the supernatural energies.  Three separate carbon dating tests put the shroud's age at about 700 years - coincidentally right around the time it was discovered:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiocarbon_14_dating_of_the_Shroud_of_Turin

Yay science!

Yeah, maybe you shouldn`t rely so heavily on wikipedia next time. As I always say, DO THE RESEARCH.

http://www.innoval.com/C14/


Yay science, indeed!


Now back to the game!
Go Bucks!

[aldousburbank]

Yeah, real live scientists. Because simply put, there is no other explanation. Hey, I was an ardent skeptic years ago, and though my faith, in no way, hinges on the legitimacy of the Shroud, I now believe it is authentic.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/scientists-say-turin-shroud-is-supernatural-6279512.html

You might also enjoy hearing what STURP had to say:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/publiccatholic/2013/05/member-of-original-sturp-team-talks-about-the-shroud-of-turin/

Additionally, there really is no rational argument to dispute the fact that Jesus was a real person who lived and was crucified. There are numerous non-Christian sources (everyone from Josephus to Lucian and Tacitus to Talmud) that mention Jesus and his crucifixion. And that`s not even referencing the greatest scholars of our time -- many of which are agnostic and atheist -- who concede that Jesus lived, was crucified and put in a tomb.

I am totally about the historical and pre-supra-natural Jesus as Christ (Seriously)
However, just because Creator made me a dick, I wanted to point out that Marilyn Monroe also lived, died, and was buried in a tomb; and some would say, died for our sins.
[/possibly sacrilegious stupidity. Sorry Marilyn.]