Malaysian Air MH17 crash

[Chaim]

Yes I can see how you'd think all that, but you're restricted because you're a) an idiot b) you get your info from CT websites, and c) you haven't a clue what you're talking about.
Other than that you might be taken seriously.

so far I have seen zero valuable contribution for a debate from you, only childish insults. Please stay on topic if you have anything relevant to say and try to behave a bit civilized.

[DigitalPigSnuggler]

My take on this is: the whole Ukraine situation is a planned Op by western Intelligence.

[Yorkshire pud]

so far I have seen zero valuable contribution for a debate from you, only childish insults. Please stay on topic if you have anything relevant to say and try to behave a bit civilized.

I don't need your endoresment to post what I like. You're wrong if you believe all the shit you've posted. Posting links from conspiracy websites isn't anything but childish and a demonstration of your non thinking. I won't dignify it by calling it research.

[albrecht]

Does it mean I agree they show it? You'd be kicking off if they were your family members.

What is telling is why no evidence showing up? Don't get me wrong. Likely these separatists using Buk system etc. But, we, won't acknowledge? Show sat tracks, Buk movements, etc? We aren't looking? Despite my "hate" of Obama I reckon there are still some people looking at other countries and not spending all our money on surveilling US citizens.  There is no intel of this area or shooting incident? Because likely more important to use it in other ways. Or even to try to deescalate. Or escalate.

[Yorkshire pud]

What is telling is why no evidence showing up? Don't get me wrong. Likely these separatists using Buk system etc. But, we, won't acknowledge? Show sat tracks, Buk movements, etc? We aren't looking? Despite my "hate" of Obama I reckon there are still some people looking at other countries and not spending all our money on surveilling US citizens.  There is no intel of this area or shooting incident? Because likely more important to use it in other ways. Or even to try to deescalate. Or escalate.

A downed airliner shot down in the middle of an area where a civil war is going on isn't evidence? Are you being serious?

[albrecht]

A downed airliner shot down in the middle of an area where a civil war is going on isn't evidence? Are you being serious?

Of course. All the more telling and weird that their wasn't more evidence presented. Like we don't have AWACS or satellites looking at his "minor" situation in the area! Or much better things that I'm not aware of. Because, in your naive view, I guess, we wouldn't be looking at that area!

[Chaim]

I don't need your endoresment to post what I like. You're wrong if you believe all the shit you've posted. Posting links from conspiracy websites isn't anything but childish and a demonstration of your non thinking. I won't dignify it by calling it research.

I posted the 2 articles because they give a good summary about what the Russian Defence Ministry recently showed and their questions to the US. They released their data about the situation, especially that there were Ukrainian fighter jets right next to the Airliner (closer than 1Km).
Everybody already knows what the controlled corporate media is hyping - stuff like "PUTIN'S MISSILE" "PUTIN'S VICTIMS" and other such valuable mainstream media contributions. Obviously they are participating in an effort to paint Russia as the new Nazi Germans (as long as Russia refuses to become a slave to western globalist and bankers).

[Yorkshire pud]

Of course. All the more telling and weird that their wasn't more evidence presented. Like we don't have AWACS or satellites looking at his "minor" situation in the area! Or much better things that I'm not aware of. Because, in your naive view, I guess, we wouldn't be looking at that area!

Just because it isn't posted in easy to read chunks on the internet doesn't mean the evidence isn't there.

[Yorkshire pud]

I posted the 2 articles because they give a good summary about what the Russian Defence Ministry recently showed and their questions to the US. They released their data about the situation, especially that there were Ukrainian fighter jets right next to the Airliner (closer than 1Km).
Everybody already knows what the controlled corporate media is hyping - stuff like "PUTIN'S MISSILE" "PUTIN'S VICTIMS" and other such valuable mainstream media contributions. Obviously they are participating in an effort to paint Russia as the new Nazi Germans (as long as Russia refuses to become a slave to western globalist and bankers).

Ahh I get it: Mafia boss gives gang member a machine gun who negligently shoots a shop full of customers. All hell breaks loose. Everyone points at mafia boss as being responsible. Mafia boss says 'nothing to do with me guv' and is surprised he's held to account, and so are you....I see how your logic works.

[Chaim]

Of course. All the more telling and weird that their wasn't more evidence presented. Like we don't have AWACS or satellites looking at his "minor" situation in the area! Or much better things that I'm not aware of. Because, in your naive view, I guess, we wouldn't be looking at that area!

Apparently there was a NATO military exercise that ended exactly on the day of the shootdown. And of course the US are spying via satellite on this area very closely. Only a fool would believe otherwise.

here's another comprehensive article about the situation.
http://21stcenturywire.com/2014/07/25/mh17-verdict-real-evidence-points-to-us-kiev-cover-up-of-failed-false-flag-attack/

[DigitalPigSnuggler]

sorry buddy, it's reality.

Ayep, typical thinking from a paranoid conspiracy retard.  No morals, no dignity.

Here's a conspiracy theory for you: conspiracy retards don't like to look at gore pics and vids because they are evidence, they like to look at them because....

[DigitalPigSnuggler]

Apparently there was a NATO military exercise that ended exactly on the day of the shootdown.

Dude, you didn't even fuckin know there was already a thread on this subject.  Do you think we're going to be impressed by your detective skillz about a conspiracy?

[albrecht]

Just because it isn't posted in easy to read chunks on the internet doesn't mean the evidence isn't there.

Of course! Now the question is what the evidence is and why we aren't privy too it. And why the delays? Political reasons, sure. Not revealing sources and methods or what we can "see" also understandable, but to think that we have no coverage of area and don't know what happened, or at least have data to sort through, is ridiculous! Or if it is we have spent way, way, way too much on the systems.

[Yorkshire pud]

Of course! Now the question is what the evidence is and why we aren't privy too it. And why the delays? Political reasons, sure. Not revealing sources and methods or what we can "see" also understandable, but to think that we have no coverage of area and don't know what happened, or at least have date to sort through,  is ridiculous!

Why should you be privy to it? Were you privy to the Kenilworth crash? Were you privy to any aircrash investigation? The crash investigators can't get to the site and not all the bodies have yet been recovered, yet you think you deserve a minute by minute e mail update? Incredible.

[Chaim]

Why should you be privy to it? Were you privy to the Kenilworth crash? Were you privy to any aircrash investigation? The crash investigators can't get to the site and not all the bodies have been recovered yet yet you think you deserve a minute by minute e mail update? Incredible.

The public deserves indeed the evidence that the US and NATO has because our elected governments already put more sanctions on Russia because of the incident. We are already engaged in economic warfare against Russia, hell yes we deserve to see the evidence they base their crap decisions on. They are already hurting not only Russia but also directly the economy in Europe.

[Yorkshire pud]

The public deserves indeed the evidence that the US and NATO has because our elected governments already put more sanctions on Russia because of the incident. We are already engaged in economic warfare against Russia, hell yes we deserve to see the evidence they base their crap decisions on. They are already hurting not only Russia but also directly the economy in Europe.

You deserve bugger all; you're incapable of understanding it anyway, so why waste anyone's time trying to inform you?  To date, how many aircrash investigations have you been directly involved in? How many investigators have come to you for your insight, unbiased objective thinking skills and forensic analysis? Roughly?
Of the following how many were you given updates about? JAL 123 (1985); AH5017 (2014); TAM 3054 (2007); AA587 (2001); AF 4590 (2000).

All really happened, all involved casualties..so of those how many pieces of 'investigation' have you been involved in?

[Chaim]

lots of bullshit

Moron, you don't need to be a baker to know when bread is bad.
Warren Commission anybody? Don't question it, no, it's all true what they say.

Also, this isn't about examining a plane crash for the most part. How many of the experts you talk about can see the difference between a plane destroyed by a Missile fired from a Buk owned by Separatists vs a BUK fired by Ukrainian Military, or a Sidewinder Missle?
Also, the examination on the ground is just a small part.

More interesting are the machinations around the whole incident, like
* who gave the order to the plane to fly lower and that route
* why where Ukrainian fighterjets near the plane and what was their mission
* those fighter pilots need to be get into a cross examination hearing to see if they lie about anything
* why did the Ukrainian Army have Buk Launchers stationed near the Separatist Area just days before the incident - the rebels don't have planes.
* what about the video released by Ukraine about that rebel commander talking about a plane crash - with a video creation day of July 16th 7pm - a day before the crash
* this video needs to be examined forensically. I suppose it was just a cut and paste patchwork of previous rebel communication.

the list goes on and on... this doesn't smell like a false flag, it's stinking like a whole latrine system already.

[Yorkshire pud]

Moron, you don't need to be a baker to know when bread is bad.
Warren Commission anybody? Don't question it, no, it's all true what they say.

Oh, but copying and pasting CT web links is true? I see where you're coming from....Is that an admission you haven't actually been privy to any air accident investigation? Yeah...that'll be it.

Also, this isn't about examining a plane crash for the most part. How many of the experts you talk about can see the difference between a plane destroyed by a Missile fired from a Buk owned by Separatists vs a BUK fired by Ukrainian Military, or a Sidewinder Missle?
Also, the examination on the ground is just a small part.

The examination on the ground is crucial you thick twat. If you don't understand why, you're way way beyond your depth.

More interesting are the machinations around the whole incident, like
* who gave the order to the plane to fly lower and that route

Look up flight planning. Look up NOTAM. Look up how they didn't fly lower than recommended..

* why where Ukrainian fighterjets near the plane and what was their mission

Yeah? Who says so?

* those fighter pilots need to be get into a cross examination hearing to see if they lie about anything

Which ones? Where is your information coming from?

* why did the Ukrainian Army have Buk Launchers stationed near the Separatist Area just days before the incident - the rebels don't have planes.

Again.. Where is your information coming from?

* what about the video released by Ukraine about that rebel commander talking about a plane crash - with a video creation day of July 16th 7pm - a day before the crash

Oh the one that was debunked? That one?

* this video needs to be examined forenically. I suppose it was just a cut and paste patchwork of previous rebel communication.

What? You condemn cut and paste? Exactly how much new forensic evidence have you brought to the party?

the list goes on and on... this doesn't smell like a false flag, it's stinking like a whole latrine system already.

Oh it stinks alright, but not for the reasons you've lifted off the tinfoil hat shop sites.

[Yorkshire pud]

I was wondering why there's no topic about this important event here.
So lets start it here, and give your take on what happened and who is behind it all.

Who knows.

Your opening post. (My bold).Essentially you're asking other people for their view, yes? However your unsaid proviso is that they have to concur with your CT links and bullshit to be valid? Is that correct?

Okay..how do you explain the intercepts that have the Russian friendly separatists posting a twatter feed saying they brought down a Ukranian transport aircraft (believed to be a An26), and later removing it when they discovered it wasn't a transport aircraft? The intercepted telephone call that had them on site telling the Russians they'd brought down an airliner and working out a damage limitation plan?

I'm surprised you haven't posted those links....being so keen to get the truth etc...

[Chaim]

Your opening post. (My bold).Essentially you're asking other people for their view, yes? However your unsaid proviso is that they have to concur with your CT links and bullshit to be valid? Is that correct?

Okay..how do you explain the intercepts that have the Russian friendly separatists posting a twatter feed saying they brought down a Ukranian transport aircraft (believed to be a An26), and later removing it when they discovered it wasn't a transport aircraft? The intercepted telephone call that had them on site telling the Russians they'd brought down an airliner and working out a damage limitation plan?

I'm surprised you haven't posted those links....being so keen to get the truth etc...

they have been shooting down planes and choppers for weeks, moron.
also some dude posting on twitter is no solid evidence for anything, I can make 10 twitter accounts for Art Bell and post some bullshit. It happes every day.

[Yorkshire pud]

they have been shooting down planes and choppers for weeks, moron.
also some dude posting on twitter is no solid evidence for anything, I can make 10 twitter accounts for Art Bell and post some bullshit. It happes every day.

ROFL....You're priceless!! Why would they remove a posting on twitter if they had the courage of their convictions? Yet you then post links from people who haven't been outside the USA (well specifically their mothers basement) and cite them as fact! You do know how AA missile systems work don't you? Please explain how they do for the masses...I'm keen for your insight....

[Chaim]

Oh, but copying and pasting CT web links is true?

Moron, I posted some links that give some overview over the questions raised.
Mostly for people who are too lazy to google, and because it has more info than most mainstream news who write crap articles like "Putin's Missile" - who look more like a NAZI Propaganda release than credible news.
Most of the stuff in the links i posted is questions anyway, questions aren't true or false, idiot.

I see where you're coming from....Is that an admission you haven't actually been privy to any air accident investigation? Yeah...that'll be it.

Yes smartass, I haven't,  like millions of other people who are looking into this and asking questions.
Like Obama, Clinton, and that Pentagon-hag in the press conferences hasn't either.
You must have IQ80 to even ask this.

The examination on the ground is crucial you thick twat. If you don't understand why, you're way way beyond your depth.

The examination is a small part of the whole affair, you retard. You can't ignore the fact that they were flying directly over a known warzone where several planes got shot down in the weeks prior.

Look up flight planning. Look up NOTAM. Look up how they didn't fly lower than recommended..

I didn't say that you deceiving worm.
They were ordered to decend though and were flying just on the edge of the allowed corridor.
Also, we need to hear the conversation with the control tower about to see several things.
- orders to change flight route and height
- awareness of fighter jets in the area
- anything else that they might have noticed and talked about.

Yeah? Who says so?
Which ones? Where is your information coming from?

Russian Defence Ministry in a Press conference gave an analysis of their radar data they have from Ukrain airspace.
US has been silent about that so far - since days - unfortunately.

Again.. Where is your information coming from?  (ukrainian buks)

from a video of a Buk Launcher taken in city held by Ukrainian Army, city is identified by the name of a car-repair shop advertisement and street address in the video

Oh the one that was debunked? That one?

debunked where? give me a good link, moron, I look into it.

[Chaim]

ROFL....You're priceless!! Why would they remove a posting on twitter if they had the courage of their convictions? Yet you then post links from people who haven't been outside the USA (well specifically their mothers basement) and cite them as fact! You do know how AA missile systems work don't you? Please explain how they do for the masses...I'm keen for your insight....

Moron, you know everybody can make a twitter account under whatever name he wants. This is no conclusive evidence for anything.

[Yorkshire pud]

Moron, you know everybody can make a twitter account under whatever name he wants. This is no conclusive evidence for anything.

And anyone can type on a conspiracy theory website... Oh wait, that's different.

Still doesn't explain the intercepted phone calls, or the rush to destroy the evidence by the Russians...

[Yorkshire pud]

Moron, I posted some links that give some overview over the questions raised.
Mostly for people who are too lazy to google, and because it has more info than most mainstream news who write crap articles like "Putin's Missile" - who look more like a NAZI Propaganda release than credible news.
Most of the stuff in the links i posted is questions anyway, questions aren't true or false, idiot.
Yes smartass, I haven't,  like millions of other people who are looking into this and asking questions.
Like Obama, Clinton, and that Pentagon-hag in the press conferences hasn't either.
You must have IQ80 to even ask this.
The examination is a small part of the whole affair, you retard. You can't ignore the fact that they were flying directly over a known warzone where several planes got shot down in the weeks prior.
I didn't say that you deceiving worm.
They were ordered to decend though and were flying just on the edge of the allowed corridor.
Also, we need to hear the conversation with the control tower about to see several things.
- orders to change flight route and height
- awareness of fighter jets in the area
- anything else that they might have noticed and talked about.
Russian Defence Ministry in a Press conference gave an analysis of their radar data they have from Ukrain airspace.
US has been silent about that so far - since days - unfortunately.

from a video of a Buk Launcher taken in city held by Ukrainian Army, city is identified by the name of a car-repair shop advertisement and street address in the video
debunked where? give me a good link, moron, I look into it.

My my, who's been thumbing through his book of pronouns mummy bought him for his birthday? You don't know what you're talking about either. Typical CT tactic though, I admire you for sticking to the script. You wouldn't want to be seen as a traitor to the cause would you?

[Chaim]

My my, who's been thumbing through his book of pronouns mummy bought him for his birthday? You don't know what you're talking about either. Typical CT tactic though, I admire you for sticking to the script. You wouldn't want to be seen as a traitor to the cause would you?

that's right. run like a beaten bitch. don't address my replies, don't provide any evidence for the hot air you  produced. you're wasting forum space and are hurting the forum in general and its reputation. go write a haiku for Noory or something if you can even do that. And don't forget to take your Paxil too.

[Yorkshire pud]

I doubt you'll read the following because you didn't read it on a CT website. It's written by someone who has knowledge of such things.

The long-range air-defence systems which *do* have this capability (More than FL300) are integrated radar, control and missile-launch systems. These systems are big and relatively complex, and cannot be setup and operated by untrained personnel just by reading the owner's handbook.

All of the known variants of these systems have the ability to take a data-feed from the civil Air Traffic Management network which provides the tracks and sqawks (transponder codes) of all civil aircraft operating in the controlled airspace, together with the data feed from the Secondary Surveillance Radar and ADSB networks (the thing you can get from sites like Flightradar24).

Even under major war conditions people would not normally consider operating this kind of air defence system *without* those data feeds - even if their moral compass cared little for the risk of downing a civil airliner they wouldn't want to waste an expensive missile (the long range ones are big and expensive pieces of kit) and potentially disclosing the launch location by firing at a civilian aeroplane.

From the above it would seem that (if it was shot down) it was shot down by a skilled and experienced operator operating a long-range air defence system *without* the civil ATM datafeeds. This would tend to suggest it was a "rebel" rather than "Ukranian state" or "Russian" action.

Flying civil airliners over the top of war zones is not uncommon, largely because they are above the range of anything which might hit them by accident and easily identifiable as non-combatant by things which might be aimed at them. The only thing that generally closes civil air lanes is a symmetrical air war (ie one with modern jet fighters operating on both sides), and sometimes not even then.

I can remember flying over the top of Afghanistan when it was still a pitched battle. So the presence of the airliner over the contested parts of Ukraine was not an especially risky act or an explicit piece of cost-saving by a particular airline.

[Yorkshire pud]

that's right. run like a beaten bitch. don't address my replies, don't provide any evidence for the hot air you  produced. you're wasting forum space and are hurting the forum in general and its reputation. go write a haiku for Noory or something if you can even do that.

Oooooo I'm scared!!! No really. All those harsh words you call me, I don't know how I'll cope. It still doesn't make your status any better chummy.

[Chaim]

I doubt you'll read the following because you didn't read it on a CT website. It's written by someone who has knowledge of such things.

The long-range air-defence systems which *do* have this capability (More than FL300) are integrated radar, control and missile-launch systems. These systems are big and relatively complex, and cannot be setup and operated by untrained personnel just by reading the owner's handbook.

All of the known variants of these systems have the ability to take a data-feed from the civil Air Traffic Management network which provides the tracks and sqawks (transponder codes) of all civil aircraft operating in the controlled airspace, together with the data feed from the Secondary Surveillance Radar and ADSB networks (the thing you can get from sites like Flightradar24).

Even under major war conditions people would not normally consider operating this kind of air defence system *without* those data feeds - even if their moral compass cared little for the risk of downing a civil airliner they wouldn't want to waste an expensive missile (the long range ones are big and expensive pieces of kit) and potentially disclosing the launch location by firing at a civilian aeroplane.

From the above it would seem that (if it was shot down) it was shot down by a skilled and experienced operator operating a long-range air defence system *without* the civil ATM datafeeds. This would tend to suggest it was a "rebel" rather than "Ukranian state" or "Russian" action.

Flying civil airliners over the top of war zones is not uncommon, largely because they are above the range of anything which might hit them by accident and easily identifiable as non-combatant by things which might be aimed at them. The only thing that generally closes civil air lanes is a symmetrical air war (ie one with modern jet fighters operating on both sides), and sometimes not even then.

I can remember flying over the top of Afghanistan when it was still a pitched battle. So the presence of the airliner over the contested parts of Ukraine was not an especially risky act or an explicit piece of cost-saving by a particular airline.

that's a nice text. I like it. But it doesn't proof anything or disprove anything I wrote.

[Yorkshire pud]

that's a nice text. I like it. But it doesn't proof anything or disprove anything I wrote.

Well yes it does. You said the Ukrainians shot it down with fighters. Or is it aliens now?

It also explains overflying the country (MA17 was one of many overflights that week). It wasn't known it was an airliner because those with the system didn't have the data (and were probably drunk)..They saw an aeroplane overhead and assumed it was a Ukrainian transport aircraft...once launched you can't bring them back.