Malaysian Air MH17 crash

[Uncle Duke]

Surely you jest? There are conspiracy-a-plenty out there. Some of them coming from pseudo-official sources (Russian papers and some US radio programs.) There is the numerology angle (apparently lots of "sevens" involved.) There is the odd change of flight pattern (diverting into the region) instead of previous flight patterns for same flight (that seems to be the case though Idk weather etc at the time.)  A rebel "leader" claiming some bodies already putrefied and "no blood" in them. All the people wondering (yet again like 9/11) why the passports in photos are not damaged, yet, the bodies, plane, etc are very burnt and damaged. There has been looting. Reports differ on "number" of black-boxes and whether they have been sent to Russia (or not.) OECD investigators says "shots were fired" (but not AT them) so they couldn't approach to do through investigation. Ukraine sources have photos of a Puk going back to Russia. You have the various and sundry deleted tweets, intercepted communications (or false ones as some say), and the angle that Putin's plane was going that same route and was the target. There are more, I'm sure.....

No, not jesting.  Hadn't heard any kooky theories yet, that's why I was asking.  I don't consider disinformation on the part of nations/factions to be conspiracy theories, but I do like the one about the putrefied bodies.  The really good ones are going to come from the Alex Jones' and Steven Greers' of the world, not state security services or political entities.

[b_dubb]

My gut tells me that the guys who shot down this plane are probably lying dead in a ditch somewhere for creating such a shitstorm politically

[FightTheFuture]

Absolutely right about the Vincennes being in combat with Iranian patrol boats at the time.  The Vincennes and an escorting frigate challenged the airliner a combined dozen times on both military and civilian radio frequencies but received no response.  It should also be noted this incident occurred just a little over a year after the USS Stark was stuck by a Iraqi missile in the Gulf, and the Airbus took off from a joint civilian/military airfield known to base F-14s. 

All that said, the captain of the Vincennes was known to be very aggressive, and also known to aspire to flag rank.  Those traits, combined with the spanking the captain of the Stark received for laxness in a combat zone, contributed to his decision to fire on the airliner.  In hindsight he was wrong to have done so, but he made a snap decision for what he thought was the safety of his crew based on the best information he had to hand.  He has to live with that decision for the rest of his life.

I couldn't have said it better myself, Duke (my impression of Capt Rogers, however, varies slightly from yours). I would add, the Vincennes had intel indicating Iran's strong desire to sink an American warship -- especially the vaunted USS Vincennes. Intelligence indicated that a kamakazi-type attack was a highly probable means of achieving that goal. I assure you, this all played very heavily in Capt. Rogers' decision. We have to remember, Capt. Rogers was receiving information indicating the aircraft was in an attack profile.

There is a great deal of nuance to the IR655 tragedy. Not so much with the Russian take down.

[Yorkshire pud]

well,  there u go.  " NPR AND BBC"  ...............

Oh I wonder who this might be?^^^^ No I don't. Begins witb J, ends in r... narrow it down?

[Yorkshire pud]

No, not jesting.  Hadn't heard any kooky theories yet, that's why I was asking.  I don't consider disinformation on the part of nations/factions to be conspiracy theories, but I do like the one about the putrefied bodies.  The really good ones are going to come from the Alex Jones' and Steven Greers' of the world, not state security services or political entities.

As someone in the defence industry said.

"That's why we start these wars in the first place - generally when the price of aluminum drops to the point where our millinery business becomes unprofitable."

[Yorkshire pud]

There is a great deal of nuance to the IR655 tragedy. Not so much with the Russian take down.

The Vincennes incident was not down to the radar but to a poor command and control system.  They had all the data to identify the aircraft as an airliner but by the time it was all in the hands of the man with the "fire" button it was too late.  In other words the buck stopped with the Captain, who incredibly was decorated for it! Still, as he could do no wrong, why should the buck stop with him?

[FightTheFuture]

The Vincennes incident was not down to the radar but to a poor command and control system.  They had all the data to identify the aircraft as an airliner but by the time it was all in the hands of the man with the "fire" button it was too late.  In other words the buck stopped with the Captain, who incredibly was decorated for it! Still, as he could do no wrong, why should the buck stop with him?

Not exactly.

While Capt. Rogers is ultimately responsible for any action taken by his ship, it must not be forgotten that his actions were based on information that he was receiving at the time. And that information was not always entirely accurate--for a number of reasons, none of which were his doing.

He  prosecuted multiple threats with appropriate vigor and impressive deftness, always keeping the well-being of his crew in mind. 

[PerfectTommy]

Good, I can't seem to find the details on that. I know they apologized fairly quickly after the events and LBJ etc believed the scenario. And there was compensation later but I can't find the $$ amounts and $/person vs what $ was for the vessel. At least easily on a quick internet search. Just curious.

$3,323,500 in 1968 for the families of 34 crewmen killed in the attack.

$3,566,457 eleven months later to the crewmen wounded in the attack.

Finally, $6 million for damages to the Liberty herself in 1980.

http://www.nsa.gov/public_info/_files/uss_liberty/attack_sigint.pdf (found on page 64 of the actual document)

Yeah, Israel apologized and the CIA confirmed it. Mistakes happen, especially in war.

Hell, the day before the Liberty attack the Israeli Air Force accidentally bombed one of their own armored convoys near the West Bank.

[albrecht]

$3,323,500 in 1968 for the families of 34 crewmen killed in the attack.

$3,566,457 eleven months later to the crewmen wounded in the attack.

Finally, $6 million for damages to the Liberty herself in 1980.

http://www.nsa.gov/public_info/_files/uss_liberty/attack_sigint.pdf (found on page 64 of the actual document)

Yeah, Israel apologized and the CIA confirmed it. Mistakes happen, especially in war.

Hell, the day before the Liberty attack the Israeli Air Force accidentally bombed one of their own armored convoys near the West Bank.

Thanks, one would think this info should be more easily/quickly accessible.

[VtaGeezer]

My gut tells me that the guys who shot down this plane are probably lying dead in a ditch somewhere for creating such a shitstorm politically

The crew of VINCENNES are all dead??  Oh wait...

[albrecht]

No, not jesting.  Hadn't heard any kooky theories yet, that's why I was asking.  I don't consider disinformation on the part of nations/factions to be conspiracy theories, but I do like the one about the putrefied bodies.  The really good ones are going to come from the Alex Jones' and Steven Greers' of the world, not state security services or political entities.

I have hesitated to even listen to Alex or the more conspiratorial types on this incident yet. There are so many versions, conspiracies, and odd commentary from the mainstream sources, various  government agencies, and news sources to sort through. I going out on a limb here...but I'm guessing:
Alex: some kind of "false flag" to get a general war going. Response to Russian BRICS stuff.
Greer: goodness knows- but some kind of UFO connection.
Quayle: likely an Alex-type theory but full-filling an "end times" Revelation prophecy.
Rense: likely some kind of manufactured incident by the Mossad to take attention from the Zionist war into Gaza.
Clyde Lewis: the number 7 and various ancient myths and Biblical numerology

[albrecht]

I have hesitated to even listen to Alex or the more conspiratorial types on this incident yet. There are so many versions, conspiracies, and odd commentary from the mainstream sources, various  government agencies, and news sources to sort through. I going out on a limb here...but I'm guessing:
Alex: some kind of "false flag" to get a general war going. Response to Russian BRICS stuff.
Greer: goodness knows- but some kind of UFO connection.
Quayle: likely an Alex-type theory but full-filling an "end times" Revelation prophecy.
Rense: likely some kind of manufactured incident by the Mossad to take attention from the Zionist war into Gaza.
Clyde Lewis: the number 7 and various ancient myths and Biblical numerology

Forgot to add.
Quayle: DEAD SCIENTISTS!!

[Uncle Duke]

Forgot to add.
Quayle: DEAD SCIENTISTS!!

Yes I screwed up my initial posting on this, I meant Steven Quayle not Steven Greer as a source for goofy conspiracies.  Greer is starting to gain a little bit of ground however, based on his recent discussions of UFO investigators/researchers who have been killed or died.

[WildCard]

I love Abby Martin. "Breaking the Set" has guests and viewpoints western media won't touch.

But, the silence on flight 370 is conspicuous by its absence.

I meant flight MH 17. Flight 370 was the one that disappeared.

http://rt.com/shows/breaking-set-summary/174024-tragedy-over-eastern-ukraine/
"If the investigation finds that this missile was indeed Russian, than it exemplifies exactly why state powers should not be providing high grade weaponry to militias, anywhere in the world.

Just yesterday, I covered how nearly every world conflict could be traced back to the U.S. military."

[VtaGeezer]

Nice to see not every male in E. Ukraine is an ubernationalistic macho dick waving an AK.  Here Ukrainian coal miners line up in close order to search a field for bodies.
http://news.yahoo.com/photos/ukrainian-coal-miners-prepare-search-crashed-malaysia-airlines-photo-083053207.html

[albrecht]

Nice to see not every male in E. Ukraine is an ubernationalistic macho dick waving an AK.  Here Ukrainian coal miners line up in close order to search a field for bodies.
http://news.yahoo.com/photos/ukrainian-coal-miners-prepare-search-crashed-malaysia-airlines-photo-083053207.html

I think like most places most of the people on both sides in the conflict are just normal people going to work and trying to raise their families. Of course the bad or crazy people are the ones who normally make the news. And run for office. Normal, healthy people don't feel the need to try to control everyone else, make a spectacle of themselves above all others, and tell people what to do.

[Yorkshire pud]

I think like most places most of the people on both sides in the conflict are just normal people going to work and trying to raise their families. Of course the bad or crazy people are the ones who normally make the news. And run for office. Normal, healthy people don't feel the need to try to control everyone else, make a spectacle of themselves above all others, and tell people what to do.

Very true. People are people. The vast majority just want to have a decent life; they don't want vast wealth or fame, just enough food to feed their family,  a job, decent place to live and free of crap. Too much to ask? The assholes who have caused wars think so. I just hope this incident will cause enough universal anger to make ir cease.

[Chaim]

Ukraine has an amazing slimeball CIA puppet regime currently, so my take is
they shot it down themselves ordered by CIA or they deliberately ordered the plane to move into the warzone so the Libertarians would down it.
And of course Bill Gates is super happy cause it killed a bunch of AIDS scientists.

[Yorkshire pud]

Ukraine has an amazing slimeball CIA puppet regime currently, so my take is
they shot it down themselves ordered by CIA or they deliberately ordered the plane to move into the warzone so the Libertarians would down it.
And of course Bill Gates is super happy cause it killed a bunch of AIDS scientists.

Your take? Don't go into any serious thinking will you? It won't suit your personality.

[UnscreenedCaller]

I think like most places most of the people on both sides in the conflict are just normal people going to work and trying to raise their families. Of course the bad or crazy people are the ones who normally make the news. And run for office. Normal, healthy people don't feel the need to try to control everyone else, make a spectacle of themselves above all others, and tell people what to do.

That's very true. A person doesn't have to believe in the myth of the Illuminati or NWO or any other so-called secret society to account for evil in the world. It's caused by ordinary people who lose sight of this fundamental truth and in doing so become capable of atrocities.
.

[b_dubb]

Talking heads on Fox News seem ghoulishly pleased about how this incident is reigniting the Cold War

[Yorkshire pud]

Talking heads on Fox News seem ghoulishly pleased about how this incident is reigniting the Cold War

Quelle suprise! Their target audience still believes the Soviet Union still exists and the Berlin wall stands. Scratch that; Their target audience hasn't heard of Berlin. All they know is it's us and commies. Fox just fills in the gaps to substantiate that belief.

[wr250]

Talking heads on Fox News seem ghoulishly pleased about how this incident is reigniting the Cold War

the lerned themselves how to do that from dave snooron.

[albrecht]

Quelle suprise! Their target audience still believes the Soviet Union still exists and the Berlin wall stands. Scratch that; Their target audience hasn't heard of Berlin. All they know is it's us and commies. Fox just fills in the gaps to substantiate that belief.

Granted decades of indoctrination and media coverage make it easy to do, even I catch myself saying "the Soviets" on occasion, but the other night on C2C was a doozy. Guest not only referred to "the Soviets" several times but also threw in a "raghead" comment once.

[Yorkshire pud]

Granted decades of indoctrination and media coverage make it easy to do, even I catch myself saying "the Soviets" on occasion, but the other night on C2C was a doozy. Guest not only referred to "the Soviets" several times but also threw in a "raghead" comment once.

Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity. 

[FightTheFuture]

Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity. 

They`ll always be the Soviets to me. Then....I`m just a soft-hearted ol` nostalgic.

[Yorkshire pud]

They`ll always be the Soviets to me. Then....I`m just a soft-hearted ol` nostalgic.

Naa, you're just stupid.

[FightTheFuture]

[Yorkshire pud]

Awww I missed that!! Where you been sweedy? Getting down and dirty with the patriots?

[FightTheFuture]

Awww I missed that!! Where you been sweedy? Getting down and dirty with the patriots?

Are you kidding?? I can`t freaking stand, Brady!