ISIS

[PB the Deplorable]

No you're on the side for letting someone without insurance die.

Oh, bullshit

[NowhereInTime]

Oh, bullshit

Ok, so bullshit. So, what,  status quo with packed emergency rooms and hospitals turning to government to offset treating the uninsured?

[NowhereInTime]

We're not on the side of the 'Death to America crowd'.  Thanks for noticing.

neither are we, thanks for implying. We want America,  and Americans, to live long, strong, and happy lives.

[albrecht]

neither are we, thanks for implying. We want America,  and Americans, to live long, strong, and happy lives.

Very subtle but we understand this "American" term when used by leftists like Obama is an inclusive including people of all the American continent. But if asked about US citizens it doesn't hold water because if they cared about them they wouldn't be importing diseased illegals and letting roam free, letting go sex offenders and criminal illegal aliens, or allowing the cartels an open-border.

[onan]

The "letting the uninsured die" argument is a red herring stuffed with horse shit.

The uninsured get heart transplants, dialysis, cancer treatments, and whatever they need - but they can't just walk in to the Mayo Clinic and demand the best possible treatment on the planet the very instant they walk in. They have to get the treatment where they can get it, and that may be at a State run Hospital or, God Forbid, a Catholic Hospital that does more free health care than any organization on the face of the planet - but that spoils the Birkenstock crowd's fantasy horse shit about the reality of health care in America.

In the end - people that WORK, are paying for everything that "the uninsured" aren't paying for.

UMMM no. If at an ER they will get "stabilized" but not a heart transplant. Limited number of organs pretty much precludes the uninsured.


http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2013/12/catholic-hospitals-arent-doing-much-poor
Charts: Catholic Hospitals Don't Do Much for the Poor

[albrecht]

UMMM no. If at an ER they will get "stabilized" but not a heart transplant. Limited number of organs pretty much precludes the uninsured.


http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2013/12/catholic-hospitals-arent-doing-much-poor
Charts: Catholic Hospitals Don't Do Much for the Poor

Precludes others also. Certain things such as major organ transplants have many issues and criteria involved. There are people with "platinum plans" who cant get a certain organ. Granted I understand the technique of hyperbole n awful outlier situations but what about my comment on cancer drugs n chemo? Or the whole lot on dialysis I walked through who dont even speak English down here? Or the new Hep C drug that could "bankrupt" medicare/aide? The system is so screwed.

[onan]

The system is so screwed.

Yep, with that I agree.

[SciFiAuthor]

The system is run by people that fundamentally believe that the population of the earth needs to shrink. So even if you do fix the fundamental ineptitude of the system, more ineptitude will be introduced on purpose. So yeah, even as we learn how to construct organs from scratch, someone will toss a wrench in the works to get rid of people and cost the government less; death panels or what have you.

A comprehensive overhaul is required that should involve tort reform first, subsidy second, but above all accountability in management of hospitals and government involvement with hospitals. Do not ever politicize your medical care system, and that's what we fucking went and did.

[Quick Karl]

http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2013/12/catholic-hospitals-arent-doing-much-poor
Charts: Catholic Hospitals Don't Do Much for the Poor

Yeah, I am sure that Mother Jones is objective and fair when it comes to anything Catholic - just like you and a few other folks here on Bellgab are...

[onan]

Yeah, I am sure that Mother Jones is objective and fair when it comes to anything Catholic - just like you and a few other folks here on Bellgab are...

I am far more objective about Catholicism than you. They help millions, they also help millions to stay in squalor and poverty. Because you are irrational about homosexuality, you are unable to see the Catholic Church hiding pedophiles in their midst; that makes everyone within the church complicit with pedophilia. Much to many of your peers disdain, Catholic Charities is providing aid and shelter to the "invading horde of children" coming to the US. Like all things, there is good and bad... it just depends on which side of the scale you favor.

[FightTheFuture]

You've probably seen the footage, heard the story...  Thoughts?  Left-leaning progressive here (I like progress)... I think the crazed rabble that did this are scum.  I don't believe Jonas was truly swallowed by a whale; his mortal remains may not even have been in that temple.  Nonetheless, destroying a spot considered sacred by Christians, Jews, those who revere antiquity and history--a spot that was now an Islamic mosque to boot!--was hateful.

It`s not particularly surprising. Just take a look at what "they" are doing to the local indigenous Christian population.

[onan]

Oh, bullshit

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irx_QXsJiao

[albrecht]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irx_QXsJiao

Point being what? You can also find even more applause any time someone mentions infanticide, sorry "women's rights," in Democratic fundraisers or debates? At least the uninsured adults who die had a choice in the matter, for the most part (ignoring the retarded or otherwise enfeebled people.) Either way it is good for the environment because humans expel CO2 which is awful for the earth! Though true scraping them out before birth is better for Gaia because less carbon footprint.

[onan]

Point being what? You can also find even more applause any time someone mentions infanticide, sorry "women's rights," in Democratic fundraisers or debates? At least the uninsured adults who die had a choice in the matter, for the most part (ignoring the retarded or otherwise enfeebled people.) Either way it is good for the environment because humans expel CO2 which is awful for the earth! Though true scraping them out before birth is better for Gaia because less carbon footprint.

Again like most of your replies, you conflate into an either or situation. A tea party attendee cheered at the notion of someone dying because of no insurance. You are obviously good with that. Most of you must be or there would have been more of a negative response. Just be honest if you get yours, screw everyone else.

[PB the Deplorable]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irx_QXsJiao

That's your example - someone earning a good wage and deciding to not buy coverage?

What if he doesn't feel like guying car insurance either, should the rest of us be on the hook if he gets into an accident?  What if he doesn't want to buy food or pay rent?

What would - and should - happen is he would be taken care of, then handed the bill and a payment schedule.


By the way, isn't it interesting these phony 'journalists' ask the tough questions of Conservatives, and serve up softball questions for everyone else.

[albrecht]

Again like most of your replies, you conflate into an either or situation. A tea party attendee cheered at the notion of someone dying because of no insurance. You are obviously good with that. Most of you must be or there would have been more of a negative response. Just be honest if you get yours, screw everyone else.

Nobody ever died because they don't have insurance. They died because they had a medical condition of some sort. Though that condition, much of which can be genetic, but also can be caused, or exacerbated by, choices made in life. Not to buy insurance, not to eat healthier food, not to smoke, not to drink, not to engage in risky sexual behavior, etc. As I mentioned before, and you wouldn't reply factually, even if you have no insurance you can get treatment. I challenge you to visit a dialysis or chemo facility here, or even just the ER, and ask how many are insured (I hope you hablas espanol though.)

But I agree cheering death is appalling and those aren't my people. Whether you cheer an uninsured person dying, a Veteran dying on the Obama VA secret waiting lists, or some baby getting her brain sucked out, or even the criminal getting a lethal injection that doesn't work.

[onan]

Nobody ever died because they don't have insurance. They died because they had a medical condition of some sort. Though that condition, much of which can be genetic, but also can be caused, or exacerbated by, choices made in life. Not to buy insurance, not to eat healthier food, not to smoke, not to drink, not to engage in risky sexual behavior, etc. As I mentioned before, and you wouldn't reply factually, even if you have no insurance you can get treatment. I challenge you to visit a dialysis or chemo facility here, or even just the ER, and ask how many are insured (I hope you hablas espanol though.)

But I agree cheering death is appalling and those aren't my people. Whether you cheer an uninsured person dying, a Veteran dying on the Obama VA secret waiting lists, or some baby getting her brain sucked out, or even the criminal getting a lethal injection that doesn't work.

Actually 45,000 people a year die due to no insurance. And overall people without insurance live shorter lives.

[SciFiAuthor]

Actually 45,000 people a year die due to no insurance. And overall people without insurance live shorter lives.

Actually, I'd like to know how that happens. Not looking for a fight or debate, just wondering about the specifics of where you believe the system is failing and causing them to die.

[b_dubb]

Actually, I'd like to know how that happens. Not looking for a fight or debate, just wondering about the specifics of where you believe the system is failing and causing them to die.

Uhhh lack of preventative care? Lack of care?

[PB the Deplorable]

Actually, I'd like to know how that happens. Not looking for a fight or debate, just wondering about the specifics of where you believe the system is failing and causing them to die.

Are you questioning cherry picked statistics?  Once you start, there's no end to it.

[b_dubb]

Are you questioning cherry picked statistics?  Once you start, there's no end to it.

Pot calls kettle black

[SciFiAuthor]

Uhhh lack of preventative care? Lack of care?

Not really satisfied with that. We have Medicaid and numerous other programs, if you want treatment there's a way. But it may simply be that some don't know how to get to the programs or charities. Or it may be something else. I'm genuinely curious about exactly where the failures in the system are.

As far as preventative care, I doubt that's very solvable. You always have a certain section of the population that simply will not listen to their doctor whether they have one or not. If they did, type II diabetes would be a rare disease. It's a common disease for a reason. It's been shown that the lower you go down the socioeconomic rung the greater the risk for obesity and neglecting one's health even when insured.

[onan]

Not really satisfied with that. We have Medicaid and numerous other programs, if you want treatment there's a way. But it may simply be that some don't know how to get to the programs or charities. Or it may be something else. I'm genuinely curious about exactly where the failures in the system are.

As far as preventative care, I doubt that's very solvable. You always have a certain section of the population that simply will not listen to their doctor whether they have one or not. If they did, type II diabetes would be a rare disease. It's a common disease for a reason. It's been shown that the lower you go down the socioeconomic rung the greater the risk for obesity and neglecting one's health even when insured.

It does come down to lack of access. There doesn't need to be any nuance to that. You are wrong however with medicaid and your so called numerous programs. I just spent close to 16 hours over the course of 2 weeks getting one injection approved for one patient. Preventative care is the best "for the money" buck that can be spent on healthcare. And if you want treatment and do not have insurance there is often not a way. In mental health alone a good 20 percent of those seeking treatment with the agency I work for are declined. In this instance we are the last option.

People without insurance are much less likely to seek treatment for chronic conditions, including diabetes and hypertension; don't get me started on lack of prenatal care. Not only are they less likely to see a physician but they are much less likely to get medicines to manage their illnesses.

Your last two sentences should give you pause. I do think you are a pretty bright guy and if you don't see a correlation... well

[Quick Karl]

Onan,

You remind of the guy that works in the Motor Vehicle office, who does nothing tangible all day, walks around telling everyone else in the building how they should be doing things, and supports every democrat thought there is, because he believes it will perpetuate his having to do nothing more than show up and talk all day, to get his pay check...

By your arguments, any country with the socialist health system that you imagine is the answer to your dreams of being able to sit at a desk and play MS solitaire all day long, should be a country in which no one would EVER come down with a disease or GET SICK!!!!

[albrecht]

Actually 45,000 people a year die due to no insurance. And overall people without insurance live shorter lives.

Show me one death certificate where the official cause of death determined by a doctor or pathologist is listed as "no insurance." I challenge you to visit any County Clerk, Vital Records office, or Health Department and find one that says that. You are more likely to come up with a legitimate record of birth for Barry than to find a "no insurance" cause of death. People die from illness, accidents, disease, or by violence.

[b_dubb]

QK you remind me of the asshole I used to work with who used to walk around with his chest puffed up all day, acting like a badass but later got arrested for having an all male orgy in the park at night

[b_dubb]

Show me one death certificate where the official cause of death determined by a doctor or pathologist is listed as "no insurance."

You're an idiot.

[RcCle]

I wish this thread would go back to being about the Jonas brothers instead of healthcare. 

[onan]

Onan,

You remind of the guy that works in the Motor Vehicle office, who does nothing tangible all day, walks around telling everyone else in the building how they should be doing things, and supports every democrat thought there is, because he believes it will perpetuate his having to do nothing more than show up and talk all day, to get his pay check...

By your arguments, any country with the socialist health system that you imagine is the answer to your dreams of being able to sit at a desk and play MS solitaire all day long, should be a country in which no one would EVER come down with a disease or GET SICK!!!!

So no argument from you, just irrational banter.

The system you love, is broken. And it is going away.

[Yorkshire pud]

Show me one death certificate where the official cause of death determined by a doctor or pathologist is listed as "no insurance." I challenge you to visit any County Clerk, Vital Records office, or Health Department and find one that says that. You are more likely to come up with a legitimate record of birth for Barry than to find a "no insurance" cause of death. People die from illness, accidents, disease, or by violence.

Hmm maybe sepsis due to broken leg that didn't heal properly because the patient couldn't afford the treatment? Or complications due to chronic heart condition that was preventable if the patient had afforded the treatment? What about pneumonia due to treatable but unaffordable lung infection?