ISIS

[FightTheFuture]

We absolutely can no longer afford to allow threats a safe haven to grow and develop overseas. The oceans will no longer protect us as they once did. That's obvious to everybody. Unfortunately, there is a growing isolationist movement in this country. Of course, that is to be expected after a protracted military campaign; I get it. But we must come to terms with the modern day reality that our enemies are no longer confined by borders, or rules of war. They are everywhere and will do anything. Thus, we must also be everywhere and do whatever  is necessary to stop them. Even Obama is beginning to come around to that stark reality.



When President Obama walked away from the negotiating table and failed to secure a SOFA, he did so at the peril of the world. Not just the United States, but the entire civilized world. I really believe he now understands that. He could have been the adult in the room and insisted that 20 to 30,000 combat troops remain in Iraq as a stabilizing force. Virtually every military leader recommended at least some variation of that. But, no, Obama was much more comfortable playing the role of the cool, hip MTV generation leader -- or is it the comedy channel these days?

Yeah, it's a terrible thing to lose good young men and women overseas in these conflicts. Believe me, I know. I've lost a couple friends in that damn sand box over there. My own son is preparing, as I type this, to go. Thankfully our great nation seems to produce a great many brave warriors. And no, their lives shouldn't be squandered. They don't HAVE to be. With the proper leadership in the White House, we can confront this horrible threat intelligently, and within a reasonable fiscal budget. unfortunately, Obama has not been that leader

[GeorgieForPresident2216]

The only link is financial, as I see it. We are bombing the piss out of the world based on the notion that it makes America safer. I don't think it makes America safer in the overwhelming majority of cases...

I'm not sure it does either.  Mostly I think it just builds resentment against America and creates new problems.  However, if it is at all possible to bring power to the citizens of those regions through democracy without creating a power vacuum for extremist factions I do think it is worth it long term and would make America safer.  Democracy is seldom a quick, smooth, or linear process.  However, it is difficult to know whether that can ever be achieved in an area with such a long history of bitter disputes and fundamentalist beliefs, and much of what the West is doing over there seems to have little to do with democracy.  I also think if the west values human rights and equality, there is an obligation to fight against any tyrannical regime that would ignore those rights.  Once again, though, I don't see a very good track record with hundreds of thousand dead ultimately due to western interference.  A necessary evil or pointless bloodshed?

[Rudolf Zlabinger]

We absolutely can no longer afford to allow threats a safe haven to grow and develop overseas.

There are as many safe havens for threats around the world, as there are regions where people live under a minimum standard, envious about our relative wealth. There is no solution yet, as colonialism was it in the past to some degree.

If we could return to a modernized approach of colonialism for all the problem areas, to help the people there to survive with a moderate standard, it could be the only solution to minimize terrorism.

But...

I have a dream....

[Camazotz Automat]

I see no reason to sacrifice one more American soldier's life to protect the Islamic world from its self. Let's instead spend the money on protecting our own borders and more closely selecting who is allowed to enter the United States legally or otherwise.

[attachimg=1]

And if the U.S.A. really feels the need to bleed something, the Mexican drug cartel is always waiting.

[Rudolf Zlabinger]

I understand your angriness, but there has no American to die, if we do the right things, as Obama did, and also ISLAM made the correct decision, the things solve nearly themselves. Can you imagine, what Arabic people do with their enemies as the IS murderers now are?

[Juan]

We learned last night on DMRN that the beheadings are fake. So (ha) now we have beheading Trutherism.

[Camazotz Automat]

I understand your angriness, but there has no American to die, if we do the right things, as Obama did, and also ISLAM made the correct decision, the things solve nearly themselves. Can you imagine, what Arabic people do with their enemies as the IS murderers now are?

Greetings, RZ.  I'm not as much angry, as I am disgusted at the lack of positive/tangible results after the allocation of so many resources for such a long time.

It begs the question if "non interference" even for just a short span, would not be worth examining? Stop policing the world and police our immediate area instead at a fraction of the cost.

I'm old fashioned in what small amount of interference would be practiced, limiting it to controlled assassination of key leaders while flooding the targeted land with "Coca Cola, blue jeans, computers, and Rock & Roll," so to speak. 

[FightTheFuture]

There are as many safe havens for threats around the world, as there are regions where people live under a minimum standard, envious about our relative wealth. There is no solution yet, as colonialism was it in the past to some degree.

If we could return to a modernized approach of colonialism for all the problem areas, to help the people there to survive with a moderate standard, it could be the only solution to minimize terrorism.

But...

I have a dream....

I am not in disagreement with anything you wrote. However, we can say what we want about G.W. Bush, but he assembled a very impressive international intelligence gathering apparatus which has served us quite well. An extremely difficult and complicated task, I assure you. 

That intelligence infrastructure that Bush set into motion has largely dried out due to Obama`s lackluster foreign policy and complete lack of willingness to deploy necessary assets in order to make it work. That`s a real shame. Although, I have no doubt Obama now understands the importance of human intelligence gathering and having live assets on the ground in any number of places. Drones are an effective tool, but Mr. Obama has staked far too much on their use.

[Rudolf Zlabinger]

Hello Camazotz,

There will not be a lot of brainwork needed, to bring peace to problem zones without to pay with your own live. Let the people live, as they are happy and thereby make a good business, that will make you rich beyond the limits. Only the first time good mercenaries must do their dirty work, to neutralize the parasitic elites.

Looks simple and is simple and we all should do that of course with mandates from UNO, with international rights expanded for catastrophic areas. A UNO taskforce first make the rules and then manage the "claims" for a reasonable amount of taxes.

And because money flows, it will also work.

Good luck at your claim, Rudolf 

[albrecht]

Is there a thread where you can't resist mentioning Mexico?

Because, unlike the ISIL/ISIS/SI the beheadings in our country and to our country just across the open-border is more of a real issue impacting lives here. Sure it is nice to be the world's policeman and defend everyone, and every country's border, all over the world but, maybe, we should first defend our people and our border. When you have a murder rate worse in areas of Mexico and Central America than in most places in the Middle East one wonders why we don't try to address that? Or at least say, gee, maybe we should close our open-border considering the beheadings, rapes, corruption, and murders just a few short miles away first.

Where is the international outrage when they behead with knives (and chainsaw) just some miles from our border all the time but someone thousands of miles away gets outrage and press? And, amazingly, we have a president who says "I want to make them dreamers" and allows the illegals not only cross the open-border but, if caught, get free healthcare, schooling, transportation, and housing- even to gang members and sex offenders on occasion?

That is why.

[Yorkshire pud]

Because, unlike the ISIL/ISIS/SI the beheadings in our country and to our country just across the open-border is more of a real issue impacting lives here. Sure it is nice to be the world's policeman and defend everyone, and every country's border, all over the world but, maybe, we should first defend our people and our border. When you have a murder rate worse in areas of Mexico and Central America than in most places in the Middle East one wonders why we don't try to address that? Or at least say, gee, maybe we should close our open-border considering the beheadings, rapes, corruption, and murders just a few short miles away first.

Where is the international outrage when they behead with knives (and chainsaw) just some miles from our border all the time but someone thousands of miles away gets outrage and press? And, amazingly, we have a president who says "I want to make them dreamers" and allows the illegals not only cross the open-border but, if caught, get free healthcare, schooling, transportation, and housing- even to gang members and sex offenders on occasion?

That is why.

Is any of that relevant to ISIS and the ME in this thread? Open a thread called 'Mexican beheadings and other tales south of the border'.

[VtaGeezer]

Keep in mind, Bush went to Congress and received near unanimous approval for the use of force in the Middle East. He also stood before the United Nations, which subsequently led to further unanimous votes by the UNSC.

Only after a months-long propaganda campaign of lies about Saddam's WMD and direct threats on the US from Iraq and Saddam's AQ "pals".  Not to mention the post-9/11 hysteria that his people whipped up for years in America.  Do you still have your cache of duct tape and plastic sheeting from when Darth Cheney told Americans to prep for chem/bio attack?

On your reply to my other question...Haines made a fairly long, clear and very calm statement.  Could he do that if drugged to point of ignoring an approaching gruesome end?

[FightTheFuture]

Only after a months-long propaganda campaign of lies about Saddam's WMD and direct threats on the US from Iraq and Saddam's AQ "pals".  Not to mention the post-9/11 hysteria that his people whipped up for years in America.  Do you still have your cache of duct tape and plastic sheeting from when Darth Cheney to Americans to prep for chem/bio attack?  Still getting advisory emails from that traitor?

They all had the same intel. So, I reckon by your reasoning, everybody on the U.S. Senate Select Committee on Intelligence and the House Select committee on Intelligence, etc., all were in on the big conspiracy? And, exactly, why would the leading Democrats fully support Bush? Not to mention all the various international intelligence agencies.

This "Bush lied; people died" nonsense is insulting to anybody with a brain. It`s almost as absurd as "blood for oil" crap. Were you out banging your pots and pans singing "give peace a chance"? Please. What tripe.

[albrecht]

Is any of that relevant to ISIS and the ME in this thread? Open a thread called 'Mexican beheadings and other tales south of the border'.

It is obviously relevant because we are now discussing starting another war which entails (at minimum) at lot of money but, most likely, other costs like lives. Instead of protecting borders and people overseas maybe we should take care of problems at home. Sure in the ideal world where money and lives are unlimited we could protect everyone in the world and secure everyone's border. But no matter how much money we print there is still a problem of limited funds and scarcity of resources. I would rather our governments worrying about beheadings in Mexico or in the USA (or in Woolwich for that matter
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=d0f_1369235265 ) before spending money and lives abroad, again, in the Middle East. Especially when part of the strategy is to support certain Muslim radicals whilst fighting other Muslim radicals, allowing our borders to remain open, and to allow immigrants of questionable allegiance and criminality into our countries.

[Yorkshire pud]

They all had the same intel. So, I reckon by your reasoning, everybody on the U.S. Senate Select Committee on Intelligence and the House Select committee on Intelligence, etc., all were in on the big conspiracy? And, exactly, why would the leading Democrats fully support Bush? Not to mention all the various international intelligence agencies.

This "Bush lied; people died" nonsense is insulting to anybody with a brain. It`s almost as absurd as "blood for oil" crap. Were you out banging your pots and pans singing "give peace a chance"? Please. What tripe.

Yeah, you didn't watch the video (actually a broadcast by a very respected journalist) interviewing intelligence officers with the CIA (At the time of the Bush Admin), and others, either.

[FightTheFuture]

Yeah, you didn't watch the video (actually a broadcast by a very respected journalist) interviewing intelligence officers with the CIA (At the time of the Bush Admin), and others, either.

Good grief, I`ve seen the stupid video. Probably before you. It`s one-sided propaganda and ass-covering all the way through. Not to mention some well paid "sources"  saying whatever the producers wanted them to say. Who cares.

You put Pelosi, Boxer, Clinton and Feinstein on camera saying they saw the exact same intel (which, they did) as Bush, and sill lied to "gin up" the case for invasion of Iraq, and you might have something. Until then, it`s all conspiratorial anti-Bush BS.

[Yorkshire pud]

Good grief, I`ve seen the stupid video. Probably before you. It`s one-sided propaganda and ass-covering all the way through. Not to mention some well paid "sources"  saying whatever the producers wanted them to say. Who cares.

You put Pelosi, Boxer, Clinton and Feinstein on camera saying they saw the exact same intel (which, they did) as Bush, and sill lied to "gin up" the case for invasion of Iraq, and you might have something. Until then, it`s all conspiratorial anti-Bush BS.

They saw the same intel that was presented....all of it? Including the fact the 'spys' who had all this intel on yellow cake and WMD and mobile chemical weapon plants were making it up? It's called making the evidence fit the policy, done in this case by neglecting the bits that would undo the policy.

[onan]

They all had the same intel.

No they didn't. And those that could have made a difference were ignored. Remember the vial of "Anthrax"?

Your guys, that you now disclaim, made this mess. And we may never be able to clean it up.

[VtaGeezer]

They all had the same intel. So, I reckon by your reasoning, everybody on the U.S. Senate Select Committee on Intelligence and the House Select committee on Intelligence, etc., all were in on the big conspiracy? And, exactly, why would the leading Democrats fully support Bush? Not to mention all the various international intelligence agencies.

This "Bush lied; people died" nonsense is insulting to anybody with a brain. It`s almost as absurd as "blood for oil" crap. Were you out banging your pots and pans singing "give peace a chance"? Please. What tripe.

Still so gullible?  ALL intel came from a CIA/DIA community full controlled by Cheney and Rummy.  You were probably one of those accusing any who weren't swallowing the WMD swill of treason. 

[FightTheFuture]

In a letter to the new President Bush, a number of Senators led by Florida Democrat Bob Graham declared:

"There is no doubt that ... Saddam Hussein has invigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical, and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf war status. In addition, Saddam continues to redefine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer-range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies."
Senator Carl Levin reaffirmed for Bush’s benefit what he had told Clinton some years earlier:

"Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandate of the United Nations, and is building weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them."
Senator Hillary Clinton agreed, speaking in October 2002:

"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical- and biological-weapons stock, his missile-delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al-Qaeda members."
Senator Jay Rockefeller, vice chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, concurred:

"There is unmistakable evidence that Suaddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years.... We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction."


Also in 2002, Al Gore said the following:

"We know that [Saddam] has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country."
"Iraq’s search for [WMD] has proven impossible to deter, and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power."
Senator John Kerry announced in 2002: "I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use forceâ€"if necessaryâ€"to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security."





But it was all Bush lying. Right. Still can't get over Bush lol. Amazing.

[Yorkshire pud]

In a letter to the new President Bush, a number of Senators led by Florida Democrat Bob Graham declared:

"

But it was all Bush lying. Right. Still can't get over Bush lol. Amazing.

As long as you're certain they got the info that has subsequently been released, that was known by the intel but ignored by Cheney and Rumsfeld in 2000. But you're not, so what you say isn't relevant.  How could SH give sanctuary to Al Qaeda? SH and Bin Laden hated each other, but again ignored and spun as the opposite by the Bush Admin.. Still, why let facts get in the way of a war that would kill 100000 civvies?

He was hoping to get nuclear weapons capability, sure, in the same way I'm hoping to win the jackpot on the lottery; isn't going to happen.

You've bought into the same bollox that Bush et al wanted you to buy into, and you still think it's true. Bush may not have known then what was and wasn't true, but those advising him and the closest certainly did, because the CIA told them. As did German, French (Who found that Niger weren't exporting yellow cake and advised the CIA Paris office), and UK intel.

Keep believing what you want..just don't believe what you think.

[b_dubb]

Well, you told me 3 minutes.Living in and around Berkeley CA all these years has jaded me to this stuff.

You have a gift for understatement

[VtaGeezer]

In a letter to the new President Bush, a number of Senators led by Florida Democrat Bob Graham declared:

"There is no doubt that ... Saddam Hussein has invigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical, and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf war status. In addition, Saddam continues to redefine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer-range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies."
Senator Carl Levin reaffirmed for Bush’s benefit what he had told Clinton some years earlier:

"Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandate of the United Nations, and is building weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them."
Senator Hillary Clinton agreed, speaking in October 2002:

"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical- and biological-weapons stock, his missile-delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al-Qaeda members."
Senator Jay Rockefeller, vice chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, concurred:

"There is unmistakable evidence that Suaddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years.... We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction."


Also in 2002, Al Gore said the following:

"We know that [Saddam] has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country."
"Iraq’s search for [WMD] has proven impossible to deter, and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power."
Senator John Kerry announced in 2002: "I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use forceâ€"if necessaryâ€"to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security."





But it was all Bush lying. Right. Still can't get over Bush lol. Amazing.

Not "all".  Bush was/is too stupid to lie so consistently.  He just said what Cheney had him spoon-fed.

[b_dubb]

I think the person who pressured Bush into an invasion was Cheney and his hawkish pals.  If there is a God and a Devil I hope they are busy adding a new, deeper level of Hell for these monsters.  Put the whole damned Bush cabinet and Dubbya himself in there.

[Yorkshire pud]

I think the person who pressured Bush into an invasion was Cheney and his hawkish pals.  If there is a God and a Devil I hope they are busy adding a new, deeper level of Hell for these monsters.  Put the whole damned Bush cabinet and Dubbya himself in there.

And throw in Bliar and his fellow scum too. He's grown very wealthy on the back of the shit storm in the ME. I could punch that cunt in the face and not get tired or bored. Loathsome filth.

[GeorgieForPresident2216]

And throw in Bliar and his fellow scum too. He's grown very wealthy on the back of the shit storm in the ME. I could punch that cunt in the face and not get tired or bored. Loathsome filth.

I see what you did there.

[albrecht]

And throw in Bliar and his fellow scum too. He's grown very wealthy on the back of the shit storm in the ME. I could punch that cunt in the face and not get tired or bored. Loathsome filth.

Whether or not the information was "sexed up" prior to the Iraq invasion we should also not forget besides the politicians, of many parties, the media (for the most part) was promoting the war pretty hard. Both in tv and print, which I guess makes sense since "if it bleeds, it leads." That is yet another reason we shouldn't be swayed into quick actions or decisions vis-a-vis ISIL/ISIS/SI simply because of some awful beheading videos and newspaper headlines urging us to get involved.

[Gd5150]

I think the person who pressured Bush into an invasion was Cheney and his hawkish pals.  If there is a God and a Devil I hope they are busy adding a new, deeper level of Hell for these monsters.  Put the whole damned Bush cabinet and Dubbya himself in there.

"Earlier today, I ordered America's armed forces to strike military and security targets in Iraq. They are joined by British forces. Their mission is to attack Iraq's nuclear, chemical and biological weapons programs and its military capacity to threaten its neighbors."

"Saddam Hussein must not be allowed to threaten his neighbors or the world with nuclear arms, poison gas or biological weapons."

"Other countries possess weapons of mass destruction and ballistic missiles. With Saddam, there is one big difference: He has used them. Not once, but repeatedly. Unleashing chemical weapons against Iranian troops during a decade-long war. Not only against soldiers, but against civilians, firing Scud missiles at the citizens of Israel, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain and Iran. And not only against a foreign enemy, but even against his own people, gassing Kurdish civilians in Northern Iraq."

The 3 quotes above are of course from the president in his address to the nation. President Bill Clinton, December 15th, 1998.

http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/stories/1998/12/16/transcripts/clinton.html

It's a shame the mainstream media and institutions of higher education not only permit but encourage the level of ignorance achieved by the left in the US. Their close minded hatred makes their opinions not only irrelevent but dangerous to the well being of the world. Educating the ignorant left is a job that never ends.

[MV/Liberace!]

We absolutely can no longer afford to allow threats a safe haven to grow and develop overseas. The oceans will no longer protect us as they once did. That's obvious to everybody.

it certainly isn't obvious to me.  ISIS has no air force and no navy.  if they did, those assets would be extremely easy (and extremely specific) targets for the united states military to destroy if necessary.  they are not a credible threat to the united states, and i've heard nobody make a case to explain how they are.  sure, they could come over here and blow things up, but as i said before, we can mitigate that risk by  1) enforcing our borders and 2) being more selective about who gets a visa.  there's no such thing as a foreign military adventure at a "reasonable" price tag.  each tomahawk missile costs $1,410,000.  think how many border guards could be employed with the money spent on that single missile.  think how many unmanned drones could patrol the border at the cost of ten tomahawk missiles.  it's just not making sense to me.  if ISIS is a threat to the united states, i'm certainly willing to be schooled, but i've not seen a single person make the case.  yeah, sure, i'd like to see those beheading butchers die a slow, painful death.  i understand revenge.  however, there's also the side of the coin that says, "if you don't want to get your head cut off slowly with a butter knife, stay the hell out of there."  i think this hard and heavy clamoring for military action really ratcheted up when the beheading videos started hitting youtube, and i don't think that's a case for war.  that's a case for westerners not going where they're not wanted.

[GeorgieForPresident2216]

"Earlier today, I ordered America's armed forces to strike military and security targets in Iraq. They are joined by British forces. Their mission is to attack Iraq's nuclear, chemical and biological weapons programs and its military capacity to threaten its neighbors."

"Saddam Hussein must not be allowed to threaten his neighbors or the world with nuclear arms, poison gas or biological weapons."

"Other countries possess weapons of mass destruction and ballistic missiles. With Saddam, there is one big difference: He has used them. Not once, but repeatedly. Unleashing chemical weapons against Iranian troops during a decade-long war. Not only against soldiers, but against civilians, firing Scud missiles at the citizens of Israel, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain and Iran. And not only against a foreign enemy, but even against his own people, gassing Kurdish civilians in Northern Iraq."

The 3 quotes above are of course from the president in his address to the nation. President Bill Clinton, December 15th, 1998.

http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/stories/1998/12/16/transcripts/clinton.html

It's a shame the mainstream media and institutions of higher education not only permit but encourage the level of ignorance achieved by the left in the US. Their close minded hatred makes their opinions not only irrelevent but dangerous to the well being of the world. Educating the ignorant left is a job that never ends.

I've never heard anyone deny that Saddam had WMD programs in the 80s and 90s, but what we have learned is that none of these programs were still in effect by the time Bush was trying to find an excuse to go to war with Iraq.

The difference is that in 1998 Iraq wasn't complying with UN resolutions but by 2003 they were.