ISIS

[paladin1991]

Give the poor guy a break. It is not like we aren't all aware of his Sunni upbringing and sympathies for Islam, and indeed friendship with radicals of all bent, and lest we forget, he faces also great pressure from the Kissinger/Brzezinski types to allow ISIL/ISIS/SI (maybe even arm them via some gun smuggling through Libya and Turkey) to degrade Assad as proxy war against Iran and Russia. His only, possible, regret is that he allowed his "rebels" to go a little too far and, maybe, he was surprised when his Sunni radicals pivoted toward Iraq and started killing others besides Christians and Shites-who Obama could care less about- and didn't just focus on Assad. Hence the limited intervention now, only after they have seized so much territory and killed so many.

PUt your hands in the air and shake your head fm side to side.  Then say, 'How could he have known?'

[FightTheFuture]

As ALL his former top level cabinet folks are saying (and MORE to come), the man (Obama) is incompetent. He is a nothing more than a community organizer and adjunct law professor, and his approach to highly critical geo-political issues reflects that level of Ineptitude.  I have to say, it`s a bit frightening to have this arrogant amateur in the WH as the world is burning.

[PB the Deplorable]

Foreign policy is the most important of a Presidents duties, keeping the country safe - not from just immediate threats but long term.  As we see with illegal immigration - and people bringing in disease, drug cartel ties, MS-13 ties - ebola, ISIS, the Presidency really is the essential office charged with the health and welfare of this country.


I'd like to know how the people who voted for him thought he would handle this, how they could be so un-serious.  Did they really think he was 'just so smart' as to be able to handle issues ad hoc, that his world view would inform him on the correct course to take as issues and events arose, and that reliance on a dunce like Joe Biden for advice on these issues was prudent?  (that was his stated reason for choosing Biden as VP)

I get that John McCain was no prize, but did they not hear the recordings of Obama's long time pastor, the 'Rev' Wright on those recordings?  I'm never going to understand the incompetence of those voters, at least the ones that weren't either black or still in college.

[FightTheFuture]

Foreign policy is the most important of a Presidents duties, keeping the country safe - not from just immediate threats but long term.  As we see with illegal immigration - and people bringing in disease, drug cartel ties, MS-13 ties - ebola, ISIS, the Presidency really is the essential office charged with the health and welfare of this country.


I'd like to know how the people who voted for him thought he would handle this, how they could be so un-serious.  Did they really think he was 'just so smart' as to be able to handle issues ad hoc, that his world view would inform him on the correct course to take as issues and events arose, and that reliance on a dunce like Joe Biden for advice on these issues was prudent?  (that was his stated reason for choosing Biden as VP)

I get that John McCain was no prize, but did they not hear the recordings of Obama's long time pastor, the 'Rev' Wright on those recordings?  I'm never going to understand the incompetence of those voters, at least the ones that weren't either black or still in college.

PB, I reckon  this sort of says it all:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37B_nOdRTAA#

[b_dubb]

PB, I reckon  this sort of says it all:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37B_nOdRTAA#

he called Obama god.  and no one laughed and told him what an asshat he is.  ffs.

[VtaGeezer]

Seeing the Turkish Army sitting on the hill placidly watching the ISIL assault on Kurdish Kobani says everything one needs to know about the ME snake pit. Yesterday the Turkish govt probably killed as many Turkish Kurds; demonstrating for their army to act against ISIL; as ISIL did in Kobani. 

Most people who voted for Obama recognize that he's got failings and also that the election alternatives offered would already have routine flights of C-17s full of Americans in body bags returning from Iraq and Syria while the people in the region gleefully looked on.  It's becoming clear that ISIL is much more than a bunch of Jihadi walk-ons and we'd better be very careful about further commitments in the scorpion kingdom that is the ME.

[MV/Liberace!]

...the election alternatives offered would already have routine flights of C-17s full of Americans in body bags returning from Iraq and Syria while the people in the region gleefully looked on.

yes.

[FightTheFuture]

 

Most people who voted for Obama recognize that he's got failings and also that the election alternatives offered would already have routine flights of C-17s full of Americans in body bags returning from Iraq and Syria while the people in the region gleefully looked on.

I don`t believe that for a quick second. How can you even make a claim like that? What evidence?

What probably WOULD have happened is there would be a sizable contingent of  combat troops in Iraq to stabilize the region and ISIL would be nonexistent as a fighting force.

[VtaGeezer]

I don`t believe that for a quick second. How can you even make a claim like that? What evidence?

What probably WOULD have happened is there would be a sizable contingent of  combat troops in Iraq to stabilize the region and ISIL would be nonexistent as a fighting force.

First, the evidence:  1. John McCain!  2.  Romney's top ME advisor was a Fox News regular Walid Phares.  Nuff said.

Any residual US force in Iraq would have been small; maybe 20,000, mostly support troops, and garrisoned near Baghdad.  It would not have detered ISIL; only baited us to send in more divisions.  It would have been Fallujah x 10.  We never beat the insurgency in Iraq militarily; we beat them with massive bags of US cash for Sunni sheikhs; then al Malaki them fucked over.  The Sunnis won't make that mistake twice; they'd rather have Sharia and ISIL than be ruled by Shiites taking orders from Tehran.  ISIL continues to advance because they have the majority of Sunnis behind them, but its not PC for CNN (or Washington) to report that.

[Gd5150]

Most people who voted for Obama recognize that he's got failings

Theres no basis for that assumption at all considering the ignorance of the electorate voting to elect the most inexperienced president in the history of the country. Voting based purely on skin color.

It's sad but there is still entrenched racism in the US. As generation after generation of minorities become more educated the Democrats will continue to lose their stranglehold over their racist followers. Perhaps a day will come before the end of 21st century when experience and policy take president over ones skin color.

[FightTheFuture]

First, the evidence:  1. John McCain!  2.  Romney's top ME advisor was a Fox News regular Walid Phares.  Nuff said.

Any residual US force in Iraq would have been small; maybe 20,000, mostly support troops, and garrisoned near Baghdad.  It would not have detered ISIL; only baited us to send in more divisions.  It would have been Fallujah x 10.  We never beat the insurgency in Iraq militarily; we beat them with massive bags of US cash for Sunni sheikhs; then al Malaki them fucked over.  The Sunnis won't make that mistake twice; they'd rather have Sharia and ISIL than be ruled by Shiites taking orders from Tehran.  ISIL continues to advance because they have the majority of Sunnis behind them, but its not PC for CNN (or Washington) to report that.

That`s the point. Had we maintained a capable fighting force in country, we  could have stabilized the tenuous relationship between Sunnis and Shiites. Over time, it would have worked itself out. Yes, it would have taken decades. So what.

Nobody`s naive enough to think we  created a Jeffersonian democracy, but it was something on which we could build. We STILL have a chance to get it right, but Obama is blowing it. You fight them now, or fight them later. Logic dictates you fight NOW.

[VtaGeezer]

That`s the point. Had we maintained a capable fighting force in country, we  could have stabilized the tenuous relationship between Sunnis and Shiites. Over time, it would have worked itself out. Yes, it would have taken decades. So what.

Nobody`s naive enough to think we  created a Jeffersonian democracy, but it was something on which we could build. We STILL have a chance to get it right, but Obama is blowing it. You fight them now, or fight them later. Logic dictates you fight NOW.

Pipe dreams.  Bush's Catastrophe was historic and our descendants will pay for it for generations. The ME is a fucking deeply alien culture and we still try to relate to them on our terms; they're wired differently than the West or Asia.  Nationhood is barely holding its own over tribalism and clans, and only where they're exactly same flavor of Islam.  It will take generations to move the medieval bastards forward, if ever.

[FightTheFuture]

Pipe dreams.  Bush's Catastrophe was historic and our descendants will pay for it for generations. The ME is a fucking deeply alien culture and we still try to relate to them on our terms; they're wired differently than the West or Asia.  Nationhood is barely holding its own over tribalism and clans, and only where they're exactly same flavor of Islam.  It will take generations to move the medieval bastards forward, if ever.

I pretty much agree with everything you said. Including the part about Bush. But I`ll at least give him some credit for putting Iraq back together enough in order for them to go forward. Yeah, no question, it will take generations to make it a decent place. But we can still play a huge role in that. I think it`s critical we do so.

Iran is on it`s way to becoming a full-fledged democracy (Obama had a chance to expedite that process in 2009, but BLEW it!). We should be there when it happens. We should continue to encourage it, and cultivate it. But if we abandon Iraq now, we just play right into the hands of those despicable mullahs.

[VtaGeezer]

Iran is on it`s way to becoming a full-fledged democracy (Obama had a chance to expedite that process in 2009, but BLEW it!). We should be there when it happens. We should continue to encourage it, and cultivate it. But if we abandon Iraq now, we just play right into the hands of those despicable mullahs.

We need to recognize cultural limitations and differences. Political correctness is blinding us to existential threats.  Western style democracy (i.e., with personal freedom) is fundamentally at odds with Islam, which frames morality in its cultures.  Democracy is no panacea; we've fought some nasty wars against countries with duly elected representative governments.

[FightTheFuture]

We need to recognize cultural limitations and differences. Political correctness is blinding us to existential threats.  Western style democracy (i.e., with personal freedom) is fundamentally at odds with Islam, which frames morality in its cultures.  Democracy is no panacea; we've fought some nasty wars against countries with duly elected representative governments.

Well, call me Pollyanna, but I have interacted with, worked with, and befriended many Iranians. they want what we want. They want freedom to live their lives. They are young, vibrant, educated and on the move. I'm telling you, it's only a matter of time before Iran blows up into a colossal Green Revolution that not even Barack Obama can impede. However, We better be in position to help it along when it happens.

[GeorgieForPresident2216]

Well, call me Pollyanna, but I have interacted with, worked with, and befriended many Iranians. they want what we want. They want freedom to live their lives. They are young, vibrant, educated and on the move. I'm telling you, it's only a matter of time before Iran blows up into a colossal Green Revolution that not even Barack Obama can impede. However, We better be in position to help it along when it happens.

Yes, no matter what the consequences, I feel if a nation truly believes in democracy it has the obligation to do what is in its power to support any people who are willing to fight for their own democracy.

[PB the Deplorable]

... Any residual US force in Iraq would have been small; maybe 20,000, mostly support troops, and garrisoned near Baghdad.  It would not have detered ISIL; only baited us to send in more divisions...

ISIS was and is a rag-tag army.  They aren't strong, just unopposed by anyone armed with much more than rifles and pistols.  A few weeks ago they have at most 10,000 fighters, because of it's successes - and while Obama was golfing - others have flocked to it and they are now well over 30,000.

Had there been remaining troops in Iraq, at best ISIS would still be the small tattered group of on the run al-Qaeda-in-Iraq fighters hiding in the desert.  They certainly would not have overrun our former bases and taken all that armor and weaponry.   

This is on Obama.  He created this when he left a vacuum in Iraq

[PB the Deplorable]

Well, call me Pollyanna, but I have interacted with, worked with, and befriended many Iranians. they want what we want. They want freedom to live their lives. They are young, vibrant, educated and on the move. I'm telling you, it's only a matter of time before Iran blows up into a colossal Green Revolution that not even Barack Obama can impede. However, We better be in position to help it along when it happens.

You are spot on.  The Iranians are not Arabs and their culture is not hopeless as far as democracy and self rule. 

Carter, with his policy of focusing solely on immediate human rights with no consideration of longer term common sense policy objectives, blew an opportunity to help the people of that country move Iran from the Shah to a functioning state.  Iran should be a US friend and ally, not the fount of Shite Terror.  Another vacuum, another disaster.

I wonder what 'Jimmuh' thinks of the human rights situation in Iran now.

[MV/Liberace!]

How can you even make a claim like that? What evidence?

Not trying to be confrontational, but you're here talking about this, so I take that as an invite to join in. 

As long as we are asking for evidence, where is your evidence that it's in the interest of the United States to spend further trillions of dollars to (hopefully) kill off a bunch of backward thinking jihadi animals on the other side of the planet through a very perpetual and costly military adventure we can't afford?  The USA is broke.  I can't comprehend how people fail to consider that.  An individual with a comparable financial status wouldn't be allowed a simple credit card.  Whatever you think the benefit of such a campaign would be, it has to be weighed against the cost of trillions of dollars and American lives lost in the process.  Other than a few supposed beheading videos and the hope of keeping oil markets stable, your position really brings nothing to the table in terms of illustrating an immediate threat that can't be controlled through border investment and more selective visa approval... both of which are far less expensive and exponentially more effective options.  Again, we're talking trillions of dollars.  Trillions.  To justify that expense, you really need to have something unambiguous to go on, but you don't, and neither do the Fox News talking heads I listen to.  It's just a bunch of "finish what we started" face saving talking points.  If this is of such importance, let the Saudis finance this operation in its entirety.  Their regime has the most to lose, and it's their back yard.

In tandem with the abysmal financial implications of this latest potential fireworks show, we also face the historically questionable effectiveness of military involvement in this ideologically driven confrontation.

There will be no end... repeat, NO END to the turmoil facing the Middle East.  Our involvement will absolutely not change that, and I'm perplexed by our inability to glean this from history.

[MV/Liberace!]

This is on Obama.  He created this when he left a vacuum in Iraq

Iraq was a mistake.  This wouldn't be happening if we'd stayed out to begin with.

[PB the Deplorable]

Iraq was a mistake.  This wouldn't be happening if we'd stayed out to begin with.

That is completely true.  It also doesn't matter when dealing with the current situation, other than serving as a warning to not get too deeply involved in the region while eradicating ISIS.

[VtaGeezer]

ISIS was and is a rag-tag army.  They aren't strong, just unopposed by anyone armed with much more than rifles and pistols.  A few weeks ago they have at most 10,000 fighters, because of it's successes - and while Obama was golfing - others have flocked to it and they are now well over 30,000.

Had there been remaining troops in Iraq, at best ISIS would still be the small tattered group of on the run al-Qaeda-in-Iraq fighters hiding in the desert.  They certainly would not have overrun our former bases and taken all that armor and weaponry.   

This is on Obama.  He created this when he left a vacuum in Iraq

If you believe that baloney you're not just an ideologue, but a gullible one.  I thought ISIL was rag-tag too...for about a week.  Pick-up bands of insurgents don't make a well-supplied and coordinated advance on a large non-continuous front while under air attack.  These guys are exceptionally well-trained and organized; they make AQ fighters look like street-corner gang.  They went from under 10K to 30K in weeks because they're vigorously supported by most Sunni in W Iraq, including the tribes that Bush rained money on.  Their PR material is superbly targeted. Their like fucking gods to Sunni young men with no future.   You won't hear this on western media for obvious reasons.  Any ground force that goes into Sunni Iraq against ISIL will replay the American experiences in Fallujah and Ramadi in '04/05.  It took a huge US force and a lot of casualties to dislodge them from just these two cities. Do you know how big Mosul is? This is why the Arab armies won't take them on.

AQ/Iraq left for Syria, armed and intact, a year before Obama was elected as the direct result of Bush/Pareus strategy of "victory" by bribery.  I have no doubt that AQII leaders got a percentage of the US cash paid to the Sunni sheikhs (often relatives).  US $$ probably financed the morphing of AQII into the early ISIS.  The US never had more than 166K troops in Iraq.  It would take several times that to control an assertive insurgency in the 10M Iraqi Sunnis.  You rightwingers still think we can just show up and wave the Stars and Stripes and the bad guys drop dead or surrender blubbering in terror. 

We await your linkage of the antiChrist Obama planning and executing the spread of ebola...or did I already miss it?

[PB the Deplorable]

... We await your linkage of the antiChrist Obama planning and executing the spread of ebola...or did I already miss it?

Well, they are not refusing people or flights from the ebola region.  His director at the CDC says that would somehow be 'counterproductive'. 


In a related note, in 2010 Obama scrapped CDC proposed quarantine regulations regarding foreign travelers coming here

http://dailycaller.com/2014/10/03/president-ebola-in-2010-obama-administration-scrapped-cdc-quarantine-regulations-aimed-at-ebola/

[MV/Liberace!]

That is completely true.  It also doesn't matter when dealing with the current situation, other than serving as a warning to not get too deeply involved in the region while eradicating ISIS.

But it does matter in the context of explicitly blaming Obama for the current situation, which I don't think is realistic... and believe me, with as much contempt as I have for him, it pains me to say that.  I also don't think it's realistic to believe we'll eradicate the ideology behind what's currently referred to as ISIS or avoid getting deeply involved while attempting to do so.

[VtaGeezer]

Well, they are not refusing people or flights from the ebola region.  His director at the CDC says that would somehow be 'counterproductive'. 


In a related note, in 2010 Obama scrapped CDC proposed quarantine regulations regarding foreign travelers coming here

http://dailycaller.com/2014/10/03/president-ebola-in-2010-obama-administration-scrapped-cdc-quarantine-regulations-aimed-at-ebola/

There are no flights from the ebola-affected countries to the US.
The scrapped plan targeted avian flu, not Ebola...and the plan was pandering to rightwing hysteria too.  My guess is that it would have made big money for someone on the Bush Team.

[MV/Liberace!]

There are no flights from the ebola-affected countries to the US.

by this, do you mean no direct flights?  because that is probably correct.  however, that's incidental to the airline system, not government policy... and i know of nothing stopping a passenger with an itinerary leaving liberia with a stop through CDG, ending at JFK.  i'm happy to be corrected if i'm wrong.

[Robert Ghostwolf's Ghost]

Carter, with his policy of focusing solely on immediate human rights with no consideration of longer term common sense policy objectives, blew an opportunity to help the people of that country move Iran from the Shah to a functioning state.  Iran should be a US friend and ally, not the fount of Shite Terror.  Another vacuum, another disaster.

I wonder what 'Jimmuh' thinks of the human rights situation in Iran now.

In what parallel universe did that happen?  The Shah was a CIA/MI6 puppet installed after they engineered a coup to oust the democratically elected Mohammed Mossadegh in 1953.  In 1979 there was a lot of support for the Shah, especially on the right, and there wasn't a whole lot Carter could have done.  And even if there had been, events moved so quickly after the Shah was deposed that there was no way to exert any influence short of a war.  Would you have wanted that?

If you really want to know who screwed up in Iran and a lot of other places in the world, read Stephen Kinzer's, The Brothers: John Foster Dulles, Allen Dulles, and Their Secret World War and Overthrow: America's Century of Regime Change from Hawaii to Iraq.  That's documented history, not opinion, and it explains very well why so many countries hate or mistrust the U.S. and why they have some very good reasons for doing so.  The Dulles Brothers did more damage to foreign relations with their heavy-handed meddling in the affairs of other countries than just about anyone else in the latter half of the twentieth century.

You're right, though, that Iran should be a friend and ally of ours.  Most of the Iranian people would like that to happen.

[VtaGeezer]

by this, do you mean no direct flights?  because that is probably correct.  however, that's incidental to the airline system, not government policy... and i know of nothing stopping a passenger with an itinerary leaving liberia with a stop through CDG, ending at JFK.  i'm happy to be corrected if i'm wrong.

No direct flights is more accurate.  There aren't any bans on people who originate in W Africa from making connections.  Considering the volume through Brussels and Heathrow, I doubt its practical to do anything draconian at this stage; not with just one guy slipping through.  I'm much more concerned at the frequency that we're knowingly importing ebola; four cases here, plus the two in Spain that led to a caregiver being infected.  Too much hubris in the medical community.  I watched the stunningly amateurish handling of the infected American MD who was returned to Atlanta for treatment.  And how Duncan, who went for treatment and admitted he'd come from Monrovia, got nothing beyond SOP from a boneheaded admitting nurse in the Dallas Hospital.  We owe Mr. Duncan some gratitude for scaring the living hell out of medical bureaucrats around the country and showing them that procedures are far from contagion-tight.

[VtaGeezer]

Well, call me Pollyanna, but I have interacted with, worked with, and befriended many Iranians. they want what we want. They want freedom to live their lives. They are young, vibrant, educated and on the move. I'm telling you, it's only a matter of time before Iran blows up into a colossal Green Revolution that not even Barack Obama can impede. However, We better be in position to help it along when it happens.

I went through ten months of US Air Force Missile School with Iranian officers making half the class during the good old days of the Shah.  All were well educated. They never struck me as particularly independent thinkers who would openly go against authority.

[Uncle Duke]

I went through ten months of US Air Force Missile School with Iranian officers making half the class during the good old days of the Shah.  All were well educated. They never struck me as particularly independent thinkers who would openly go against authority.

Just curious, what missile system(s) were the Iranian officers here to learn?  All the missilers I worked with were ICBM guys, but the RIAF had no ICBMs.   The USAF also had ground launched, tactical missiles through the late 60s, but I doubt we sold any Matadors to the Shah.  Are you talking aircraft launched missiles, either air-to-air or air-to-ground?