Will there be blood?

[PB the Deplorable]

You are absolutely right, Pud, but don't forget, Bundy comes from a privileged class.  He is a white, Jesus praising, gun toting, government hating tried and true patriotic conservative.  This puts him above the law, because, you know, the constitution, and Alinsky, and Reagan and stuff.

If, however, you are of a darker complexion, like America's original inhabitants, you have no legal standing.  If you should arm yourself to defend the land of your forefathers the full force of the jackboots will descend upon your neck.  Because, in PBs world, social justice is based entirely on political ideology, and always favours the establishment.  Just ask Leonard Peltier.

And you'd know.  Don't you work for an energy company that drills on public land - and not just in the US - on indigenous lands all over the Western Hemisphere?

[RealCool Daddio]

And you'd know - don't you work for an energy company that drills on public land - and not just in the US - on indigenous lands all over the Western Hemisphere?

Not every energy company is in the "drilling for oil" for business, but I concede that your limited understanding of the breadth and depth of the energy industry could reasonably lead one to think that is the case.

[PB the Deplorable]

Not every energy company is in the "drilling for oil" for business, but I concede that your limited understanding of the breadth and depth of the energy industry could reasonably lead one to think that is the case.

So you're not getting product from public lands, or from someone who does?

[wr250]

Hard working white folk deserve endless amounts of government largesse, and poor folk lay around and live off that while smoking crack, drinking whiskey and complaining their welfare check aint what they think it should be, but it seems there is always money for booze/drugs/smokes.

Thanks for the clarification.

fixed that for you. your welcome.

[onan]

It is hard to say, without walking the land, but my bet is the public land is probably over grazed. In Nevada, the land doesn't provide thick grass, so probably at least an acre per head. Since Clive open ranges his cattle he very likely spends little in feed.

I would be willing to make a bet that the land is over grazed. Desert land is fragile. If he is in higher country, the land may still be sparsely grassed, even if the land has a pretty good cover it still may take more than an acre a head.

That is the beauty of public land, though, not enough manpower to manage it. No one wants to pay taxes to protect land that doesn't have a pretty view or roads to get there. And the open range guys... well tomorrow we will move on to other "free land".

If it weren't for subsidization from the government, beef would be much scarcer than what PB suggests with dangers of the government "black choppering" cattle out.

Just to be clear here... It is ok for Clive to use public lands for his profit at the cost to others? I wonder where his bootstraps are? 

[Juan]

This has been the problem of the Public Common for centuries - who gets to use it and who pays. Enter politics and corruption.

[aldousburbank]

Now that the feds have backed off it's clear who the losers are; The cattle whose flesh shall be consumed by both the political right and left.

[FightTheFuture]

One thing is for certain: this thread has been hell on the straw man. (laughing)

[RealCool Daddio]

So you're not getting product from public lands, or from someone who does?

Likely the latter.  And those suppliers pay for the privilege.  Gosh, who do you think would collect those payments, PB?

http://www.blm.gov/wo/st/en/prog/energy/oil_and_gas.html

Perhaps you would advocate that we should just create our own paramilitary group, and take the fucking oil without paying?  We are hard working job creators, after all.  How come Bundy gets a free ride, and our shareholders get shafted? 

[Yorkshire pud]

Well well...

Executive Order 12548 -- Grazing Fees


http://www.reaganlibrary.gov/archives/speeches/34-archives/speeches/1986/5291-21486b


Obama doesn't make all the rules after all?

[UnscreenedCaller]

Obama doesn't make all the rules after all?

Apparently he's just enforcing Reagan's executive order. I do wish the GOP would keep a log of their own laws.

[VtaGeezer]

Apparently he's just enforcing Reagan's executive order. I do wish the GOP would keep a log of their own laws.

Millionaire cattleman played the rightwingers like a fiddle...what else is new?

[West of the Rockies]

But, but...  Freedom!  Patriots!  Job creators!  Boot straps!

[Yorkshire pud]

But, but...  Freedom!  Patriots!  Job creators!  Boot straps!

You forgot liberty buddy.. And and and....

[UnscreenedCaller]

You forgot liberty buddy.. And and and....

personal responsibility!  and an end to tyranny!

[albrecht]

If the Feds really cared so much about the fragile desert they would be enforcing the border more effectively and also monitoring the mineral rights more effectively. They don't like Bundy likely because of solar power deal and due to lawsuits from environmental groups likely based in other states. But that is beside the point. The point is the Federal government has no business owning so much land. It should be state or private land, read Section 1 and the Federalist (and Anti-Federal) papers for the views regarding Federal ownership of land and threats to liberty and the States.
"To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings;â€"And"

[Yorkshire pud]

If the Feds really cared so much about the fragile desert they would be enforcing the border more effectively and also monitoring the mineral rights more effectively. They don't like Bundy likely because of solar power deal and due to lawsuits from environmental groups likely based in other states. But that is beside the point. The point is the Federal government has no business owning so much land. It should be state or private land, read Section 1 and the Federalist (and Anti-Federal) papers for the views regarding Federal ownership of land and threats to liberty and the States.
"To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings;â€"And"

None of the above has anything to do with Bundy and grazing fees. Although solar energy is a better prospect for the desert than leaving it as it is..because like it or not, oil and other carbon producing means of energy will not be sustainable. Now that could be a collective initiative or one person/company, but either way it has to be done. It isn't an option.

[UnscreenedCaller]

Personally, I'm grateful the federal government owns so much land since it is held in common for the American people through national parks and the national park service which keep land from being developed and lost to generations of Americans, while preserving wildernesses.

[onan]

Personally, I'm grateful the federal government owns so much land since it is held in common for the American people through national parks and the national park service which keep land from being developed and lost to generations of Americans, while preserving wildernesses.

The federal government owning land isn't an either or proposition. If the government were limited in owning properties, the Louisiana Purchase and Alaska would not be part of the US. Should the federal government own large pieces of land now? Teddy Roosevelt thought so.

[Zoo]

Not enough Gold so the federal government claimed land (Federal Parks) to protect the dollar!!1

[Birdie]

Since it is a fair assumption to say none of us know a thing about ranching, I thought this article was interesting. It is older, from 1996, but talks about some of the environmental impacts of raising lots of cows on open range land and financial hurdles the modern rancher faces. A little about BLM operations, too.
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1996/01/the-rancher-subsidy/306414/

Found it while looking for information on whether or not Bundy received federal subsidies at any point (other than not paying his grazing fees, which is a sizable dole).

[onan]

Since it is a fair assumption to say none of us know a thing about ranching, I thought this article was interesting. It is older, from 1996, but talks about some of the environmental impacts of raising lots of cows on open range land and financial hurdles the modern rancher faces. A little about BLM operations, too.
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1996/01/the-rancher-subsidy/306414/

Found it while looking for information on whether or not Bundy received federal subsidies at any point (other than not paying his grazing fees, which is a sizable dole).

Actually, I do know a bit about ranching. I grew up in Montana, and I spent many a summer riding fence lines, herding cattle, and too many chores to mention. What I can tell you is some ranchers are much more interested in using federal lands than their own. Others like my first real girl friend's dad owned 640 sections of land... that is well over 400,000 acres. He had over 2000 head of cattle, he herded them from one area to the next almost monthly, yes he stayed busy. My point is he felt that over using his land was a very bad idea, Clive Bundy on the other hand, didn't and doesn't seem to give two shakes about it. Especially since he thought it was free.

[UnscreenedCaller]

The federal government owning land isn't an either or proposition. If the government were limited in owning properties, the Louisiana Purchase and Alaska would not be part of the US. Should the federal government own large pieces of land now? Teddy Roosevelt thought so.

I do as well since, as my quote said, it is held in common for the American people whom, I also thought, were more cohesive than a band of states loosely held together.

[Birdie]

Actually, I do know a bit about ranching. I grew up in Montana, and I spent many a summer riding fence lines, herding cattle, and too many chores to mention. What I can tell you is some ranchers are much more interested in using federal lands than their own. Others like my first real girl friend's dad owned 640 sections of land... that is well over 400,000 acres. He had over 2000 head of cattle, he herded them from one area to the next almost monthly, yes he stayed busy. My point is he felt that over using his land was a very bad idea, Clive Bundy on the other hand, didn't and doesn't seem to give two shakes about it. Especially since he thought it was free.

We have had the same issue, but on a much, much smaller scale, having to move our horses from pasture to pasture. Seems like it should be common sense for owners of grazing animals, but a lot of the big ranchers are over-grazing themselves right out of existence.
I imagine growing up on a ranch would be great for a kid. A lot of hard work, but healthy, active, and learning how to solve problems on the fly. Plus, it is always rewarding to work with your hands and to be able to see the results of your hard work at the end of each day. Much better than operating a deep fryer at a McDonald's somewhere or endlessly ringing up sales. As a teenager, caring for animals is what finally made me grow up and realize I wasn't the center of the universe.
The biggest issue I have with Bundy is his attitude towards his profession. If he is proud of his family's long tradition of being cowboys and ranchers, you'd think he would be interested in preserving that life for his grandkids and beyond. All the complaints filed against him by his neighbors seem to point to his being a taker of the worst sort with no regard for his peers. It gets under my skin that some are calling him a hero.

[Unquenchable Angst]

Bundy has been paying his land use fees to Clark county as it was set up in the original agreements going back to 1880's. He should sue the government for fertilizing their land and feeding their tortoises . As far as the government protecting ' your land' outside of national parks they give it to their cronies in energy and mining interests for much less than value. Far more telling to me to see those persons biased towards the Government position failing to see that the government move is biased to special interests that are happy that there are many that will be their willing serfs and dupes. This is purely part of the Agenda 21 . Many here show they are merely the dregs of a people divided and now we move to the conquer phase. You the living dead of the republic. emasculated simulacrums of a once great people hating those that made it, wishing to punish their prosperity out of malignant jealousy. Falling for the lies of those that wish to return you to the serfdom of your ancestors Sad little people. Lost your history. Only letting in that part of the matrix that your little 1/2 watt intellects will pass your half sided BS filters.  Long as you fall for the divisions the  elites feed you on the  TV, long as you fall for the political division you are doomed and your children and grandchildren will be serfs ,those that aren't culled for being useless eaters. It is time to wake up !

[UnscreenedCaller]

We'll always have Roddy

[onan]

We'll always have Roddy

I don't have time for movies. I am too busy being the lapdog to the ruling class.

[b_dubb]

We'll always have Roddy

Did you catch Roddy's cameo in It's Always Sunny In Philadelphia?

[UnscreenedCaller]

I don't have time for movies. I am too busy being the lapdog to the ruling class.

I rather enjoy serfing the net myself

[UnscreenedCaller]

Did you catch Roddy's cameo in It's Always Sunny In Philadelphia?

No, did he have his sunglasses on?