Does God make us or do we make God?

[RcCle]

Within the collective conciseness, which way does if "flow"?

[DocHolliday]

Humans have always come up with a God (in one form or another (or forms)) to explain things that they can't quite comprehend.

[West of the Rockies]

“God created man in his own image. And man, being a gentleman, returned the favor.” ~Jean Jacques Rousseau

[Moonbog]

For me this question precedes religion in any form.

So it is not a consideration of the validity of God in any doctrinal sense ,but rather a begrudging conclusion about the origin of the universe.

The question is  Who created Who.

The universe far precedes mankind so it is wrong thinking to confine the question to the boundaries of human existence.

How did the universe begin?

Modern society expects science to explain reality to us and science has no answer here.

Ultimately we are confronted by first cause, that which itself has no cause . A paradox

Either the Universe was created by some omnipotent force whose own creation is beyond our understanding.

Or

The Universe has no beginning , no creation and is eternal .

In either scenario I see the Universe itself as the engine of creation. All that exists as far we can perceive is quite literally created by the Universe  itself . Whether it be the generation of matter in the fiery furnace at the heart of a star or be it the coalescence of this matter as planets , solar systems, galaxies and galactic clusters themselves are formed by the known forces that govern all reality that we can perceive.

The Universe is quite obviously about the business of creation and we are a product of this effort. Which means as far as I can tell , the Universe itself IS GOD.

In Short

God Made Us

[Robert Ghostwolf's Ghost]

It all depends on who's the chicken who's the egg.

[Designx]

We personify God - which is what many religions do since we tend to think quite highly of ourselves.

[aldousburbank]

At the risk of twisting a thread which I sincerely hope retains the quality and discerning perspective from which it has begun, I will say this:

The question reminds me of that old acid age classic- "If God drops acid does he see people?"

FYI, after years of research I have reached the conclusion that the answer is- "If you are you do and if you do you are."

Just my 200 micrograms worth...

[West of the Rockies]

Aldous said:  The question reminds me of that old acid age classic- "If God drops acid does he see people?"

Which reminds me of the question, "If a man in a forest states an opinion and no woman is there to hear him... Is he still wrong?"

[RcCle]

Perhaps I should rephrase..

I was just wondering whether we, as humans, collectively are in fact "God". 

[Moonbog]

Perhaps I should rephrase..

I was just wondering whether we, as humans, collectively are in fact "God".

By my estimation there is but one thing that exists.

The Creator

The minutia we are concerned with are but manifestations of  The Creator itself.

In short , Yes.

[West of the Rockies]

Here is a pretty arcane literary reference, but so it goes:  the fat lady is Christ.

[Kelt]

Humanity is a very creative species.  If we need something we create a tool that fills that need.   Be that a ship to cross the oceans, wheels to facilitate transportation, or 'gods' to explain the thunder and the sun.

God is a tool.

Take that however you want.

[West of the Rockies]

J.D. Salinger: 

But I’ll tell you a terrible secret â€" Are you listening to me? There isn’t anyone out there who isn’t Seymour’s Fat Lady. That includes your Professor Tupper, buddy. And all his goddam cousins by the dozens. There isn’t anyone anywhere that isn’t Seymour’s Fat Lady. Don’t you know that? Don’t you know that goddam secret yet? And don’t you know â€" listen to me, now â€" don’t you know who that Fat Lady really is? . . . Ah, buddy. Ah, buddy. It’s Christ Himself. Christ Himself, buddy.

[Moonbog]

Humanity is a very creative species.  If we need something we create a tool that fills that need.   Be that a ship to cross the oceans, wheels to facilitate transportation, or 'gods' to explain the thunder and the sun.

God is a tool.

Take that however you want.

That would be  a sufficient answer if creation began with the first human to walk the Earth.

Unfortunately , creation far precedes humanity.

So we are left with the actual question , How do you account for creation itself , How was the universe created.

Man making tools and the allegories that follow do not sufficiently account for creation.

How was the Universe created?

We should address this question if we are to honestly confront our own origin

[FightTheFuture]

Follow the evidence wherever it may lead you.

I have, and it has led me directly to a strong belief in God, the Creator of the universe.

[Kelt]

That would be  a sufficient answer if creation began with the first human to walk the Earth.

Unfortunately , creation far precedes humanity.

So we are left with the actual question , How do you account for creation itself , How was the universe created.

Man making tools and the allegories that follow do not sufficiently account for creation.

How was the Universe created?

The existence of a 'god' and the existence of the Universe are two distinct and separate issues.

On the issue of the Universe, I have no idea how it was created.

On the issue of 'god', If god isn't a construct of man then show me a bat that prays.

[RcCle]

Follow the evidence wherever it may lead you.

I have, and it has led me directly to a strong belief in God, the Creator of the universe.

My belief in God is pretty solid.  The Fibonacci factor, for instance, is proof enough for me that there is someone at the controls.  I am thinking collectively, however.  If you put a couple quadrillion bacteria together, would it form a thought?  Put a couple quadrillion species together, might if form God? 

[b_dubb]

I don't see the point in debating something that can't be proven.  People believe what they believe.  And regarding this topic everything is based on faith

"Talking about music is like dancing about architecture" - Lou Reed

What would be the point in that?  Exactly.

[RcCle]

I don't see the point in debating something that can't be proven.  People believe what they believe.  And regarding this topic everything is based on faith

"Talking about music is like dancing about architecture" - Lou Reed

What would be the point in that?  Exactly.

If something can be "proven", what a shitty debate that would be!

[FightTheFuture]

My belief in God is pretty solid.  The Fibonacci factor, for instance, is proof enough for me that there is someone at the controls.  I am thinking collectively, however.  If you put a couple quadrillion bacteria together, would it form a thought?  Put a couple quadrillion species together, might if form God?

Here's my premise:

Logically speaking, I would think that if the resurrection of Jesus is real, then that would mean He is whom He proclaimed to be.

If Jesus is whom he proclaimed to be, then the logical conclusion is, there is a Holy God.


If you throw faith out the window and look at just the historical facts surrounding the resurrection of Jesus, the only logical conclusion you can come to is, it is real. Jesus rose from death, and appeared to many people.

[b_dubb]

http://www.npr.org/2014/04/07/300246095/if-jesus-never-called-himself-god-how-did-he-become-one

This aired today.  Ehrman is pretty interesting. 

[Moonbog]

The existence of a 'god' and the existence of the Universe are two distinct and separate issues.

On the issue of the Universe, I have no idea how it was created.

On the issue of 'god', If god isn't a construct of man then show me a bat that prays.

No

God and the Universe are one as I have demonstrated and I believe made a valid argument for , feel free to refute the actual argument.

I make no claims about the validity of God in any doctrinal sense.

The simple fact of the matter is , we cannot account for creation.

We must address the creation of the Universe if we are to account for our own existence. The two are inexorable.

You cannot separate humanity from the Universe.

Nor can you account for the creation of either , separately.

Either The Universe was created by a motive force that is beyond our understanding , a force we can only term God.

or

The Universe itself IS the creator and therefore is GOD.

Either way , God Created US

This is my argument , feel free to address is

[b_dubb]

You cannot separate humanity from the Universe.

Don't bet on it.

[Moonbog]

Don't bet on it.

How can humanity exist independent of the Universe

[b_dubb]

You cannot separate humanity from the Universe.

That's not what you said.  You could kill off humanity. Universe be just fine.

[FightTheFuture]

Bart Ehrman is one of the -- if not the -- foremost scholars on the resurrection. He's also an agnostic. Even he concedes the empty tomb. His explanation just gets a little lost in the weeds after that. I think I will go with a more logical conclusion.

if you want to see an interesting debate, I suggest people Google YouTube video of Gary Habermas debating Bart Ehrman.

[Moonbog]

That's not what you said.  You could kill off humanity. Universe be just fine.

You're right, that's not what I said.

But given the context do you get what I mean?

You cannot account for the existence of humanity without also accounting for the existence of the Universe itself.


Who created Humanity? , well Who created the Universe?

That's obviously what i'm alluding to, but you know that already  of course you are just nitpicking.

[b_dubb]

You're right, that's not what I said.

But given the context do you get what I mean?

You cannot account for the existence of humanity without also accounting for the existence of the Universe itself.


Who created Humanity? , well Who created the Universe?

That's obviously what i'm alluding to, but you know that already  of course you are just nitpicking.

You want to believe in God that's fine. But please respect my belief that not everything is the result of a Supreme Being.

[b_dubb]

Bart Ehrman is one of the -- if not the -- foremost scholars on the resurrection. He's also an agnostic. Even he concedes the empty tomb. His explanation just gets a little lost in the weeds after that. I think I will go with a more logical conclusion.

if you want to see an interesting debate, I suggest people Google YouTube video of Gary Habermas debating Bart Ehrman.

If you listen to that episode of Fresh Air you'll realize that you're very wrong

[Moonbog]

You want to believe in God that's fine. But please respect my belief that not everything is the result of the result of a Supreme Being.

What belief do you have that you would like me to respect?

I have laid out my argument , what is yours.

I have detailed mine, what's yours?

I'm curious

is this it? is that all of it?

"my belief that not everything is the result of the result of a Supreme Being"