Ebola

[VtaGeezer]

Why not reduce the risk of spreading Ebola, which we CAN do?

40 years of study by medical experts says there's no substantive Ebola risk from 2nd hand casual contact.  There's no reported incidence of developing Ebola from contact with an asymptomatic care provider who was following protection rules.  For that matter, no one outside Africa has developed it even from unprotected direct contact even with with asymptomatic Ebola victims.  And none of the many in Dallas who had contact with T Duncan while he was symptomatic developed it.

You'd have to presume that returning care givers will not monitor themselves per MSF/CDC/WHO directions, which would be be suicidally unprofessional of them, whether here or in Africa. Why no demands to quarantine the now hundreds of Ebola care givers for the patients in Dallas, NYC, Atlanta, MD, and Omaha?  They go home after every shift.  After all, there have been TWO cases from bad protective practice in an American hospital.  Public heath workers have better things to do than babysit returning health care professionals to calm the irrational fears of those who chose to deny medical fact...or have a perverse partisan axe to grind.   

[albrecht]

40 years of study by medical experts says there's no substantive Ebola risk from 2nd hand casual contact.  There's no reported incidence of developing Ebola from contact with an asymptomatic care provider who was following protection rules.  For that matter, no one outside Africa has developed it even from unprotected direct contact even with with asymptomatic Ebola victims.  And none of the many in Dallas who had contact with T Duncan while he was symptomatic developed it.

You'd have to presume that returning care givers will not monitor themselves per MSF/CDC/WHO directions, which would be be suicidally unprofessional of them, whether here or in Africa. Why no demands to quarantine the now hundreds of Ebola care givers for the patients in Dallas, NYC, Atlanta, MD, and Omaha?  They go home after every shift.  After all, there have been TWO cases from bad protective practice in an American hospital.  Public heath workers have better things to do than babysit returning health care professionals to calm the irrational fears of those who chose to deny medical fact...or have a perverse partisan axe to grind.

I get that but why not "err on the side of caution" etc? That is the excuse for the warming, change, disruption stuff? Why is the Army quarantining their people? Is that an admission that the soldiers weren't properly trained for this "war on Ebola" prior to being sent?

[Juan]

Canada has just joined the ranks of racist countries by restricting visas from Ebola countries.  That country went to hell when it adopted a Leaf flag rather than a Hab flag.

[VtaGeezer]

I get that but why not "err on the side of caution" etc? That is the excuse for the warming, change, disruption stuff? Why is the Army quarantining their people? Is that an admission that the soldiers weren't properly trained for this "war on Ebola" prior to being sent?

Because it wouldn't erring on the "side of caution", its erring on the side of unwarranted fear.  Bad precedent.  Waste of limited resources. If a serious outbreak were to strike, I shudder to think Bill O'Reilly or Alex Jones will be telling people that the CDC is despicable and to be dismissed (as Bill-O did a week or two ago). 

The military issue is a little different because once back on base/post, they may be in relatively close quarters plus you're not dealing with a group that can be relied on for fairly rigorous self-monitoring like MDs and nurses.  It also make its a lot easier to manage movement in country if the cdrs on the ground don't have to track and segregate people based on where they worked or traveled today.

[bateman]

a group that can be relied on for fairly rigorous self-monitoring like MDs and nurses.

Because Craig Spencer did such a good job with that.

[VtaGeezer]

Canada has just joined the ranks of racist countries by restricting visas from Ebola countries.  That country went to hell when it adopted a Leaf flag rather than a Hab flag.

Does this means you want to adopt Canadian wisdom with regard to gun regs and health care?

[PB the Deplorable]

40 years of study by medical experts says there's no substantive Ebola risk from 2nd hand casual contact.  There's no reported incidence of developing Ebola from contact with an asymptomatic care provider who was following protection rules.  For that matter, no one outside Africa has developed it even from unprotected direct contact even with with asymptomatic Ebola victims.  And none of the many in Dallas who had contact with T Duncan while he was symptomatic developed it...

It turns out there is no epidemic in West Africa because - as we are learning - it's almost impossible to catch.  Shame on me for believing all those media reports on the situation there.

Thank goodness we have an honest and trustworthy President, whose only concern is the well being of Americans.  As he pointed out, the foolish steps other countries are taking will of course doom their economies

I'm sure the voters will agree with him on Tuesday, and vote to support his party

[136 or 142]

It turns out there is no epidemic in West Africa because - as we are learning - it's almost impossible to catch.  Shame on me for believing all those media reports on the situation there.

Thank goodness we have an honest and trustworthy President, whose only concern is the well being of Americans.  As he pointed out, the foolish steps other countries are taking will of course doom their economies

I'm sure the voters will agree with him on Tuesday, and vote to support his party

Shorter Man-Boy: "durr, durrr, durr"
Yes, because Americans eat bats and touch the dead bodies of people with ebola.  God, you are truly stupid.

[area51drone]

Because Craig Spencer did such a good job with that.

And he did untold damage to the businesses that he visited.    Same thing happened in Dallas.   Imagine such a large city as New York facing economic losses of  up to 10% in various sectors (most notably tourism) if there were enough reason to worry.   That's a lot of dough, folks.   I think making them stay home just to keep your so called "unreasonable" people participating in our economy is more than enough reason.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/102123192

[PB the Deplorable]

...  God, you are truly stupid.

Remember when it was cool to vote for Obama?  The O-bots convinced themselves that he was just so smart?

What happened?

[RealCool Daddio]

I get that but why not "err on the side of caution" etc? That is the excuse for the warming, change, disruption stuff? Why is the Army quarantining their people? Is that an admission that the soldiers weren't properly trained for this "war on Ebola" prior to being sent?

So we should err on the side of caution for Ebola, but not on climate change, but not err on the side of caution with soldiers, but should err on the side of caution with trained medical professionals?  Is that the point you are trying to make?

[area51drone]

So we should err on the side of caution for Ebola, but not on climate change, but not err on the side of caution with soldiers, but should err on the side of caution with trained medical professionals?  Is that the point you are trying to make?

I know you're not talking to me, but I think we should pollute as little as possible, if that has the byproduct of helping the climate, great!   Is climate change man made? Who knows.  I don't think there is enough data to truly support it, and Al Gore's arguments have been thoroughly debunked anyway.  Regardless, like I said before - if we as a society can do something about keeping the Earth's climate at a  place that will be comfortable and safe for the majority of the earth's inhabitants, we should definitely do so.

[RealCool Daddio]

Remember when it was cool to vote for Obama?  The O-bots convinced themselves that he was just so smart?

What happened?

What happened was an above average presidency, especially when compared to his predecessors in the last 50 years or so.

Obamacare, despite almost unprecedented vitriol from the right, and a very rocky initial rollout, is now largely a success.  It will remain the law of the land, be tinkered with and improved upon by subsequent presidents, and be viewed in the history books as a monumental achievement that expanded access to healthcare to millions upon millions of Americans.  A massive accomplishment for human rights.

His presidency will also be remembered as the most polarizing of all time.  It has clearly exposed deep and dark rifts in the American political psyche, and exposed many on the right for the true extremists they are.  The birther movement, voter suppression, denial of science, government shutdowns, vulgar opposition to gay marriage, rampant misogyny and general disdain for the common man or woman will be their legacy for the beginning of this millennium.

Oh, and he was also the first black president. Kind of a big deal.

[Yorkshire pud]

1. Prove it.  I'm sure some have been around, but tell me where they all started and when!  A strain is still a mutation.
2. Do you know that for a fact?  How many places even have access to the virus?  I bet it is maybe two or three in the country.  Maybe most ebola experts have part time gigs teaching but that doesn't mean they aren't CDC
employees.
3. So what?  We have scientists looking for the dangerous meteors right now.  We pay people who think about how to deal with the situation of one coming and destroying life as we know it.  That's what.   If we have the power to do something about it, we should, as a society, make that happen.

Quarantining someone is a lot easier than stopping a meteor.

To put your conspirital mind at rest; you'll be (maybe) relieved to know that the CDC isn't the centre of the universe when it comes to tropical disease research. You can safely ignore any statement from any US institution and just read that from the rest of the world. By some quirk, they get the same results. MSF is a good place if you don't trust anything from the UK or USA.

[Yorkshire pud]

I get that but why not "err on the side of caution" etc? That is the excuse for the warming, change, disruption stuff? Why is the Army quarantining their people? Is that an admission that the soldiers weren't properly trained for this "war on Ebola" prior to being sent?

Why not 'err on the side of caution' and deny letting anyone have a driving license or a firearm unless they pass a psychological and aptitude test? Maybe because most generally don't care, as by extension they see it impinging on themselves.

[PB the Deplorable]

What happened was an above average presidency, especially when compared to his predecessors in the last 50 years or so.

Obamacare, despite almost unprecedented vitriol from the right, and a very rocky initial rollout, is now largely a success.  It will remain the law of the land, be tinkered with and improved upon by subsequent presidents, and be viewed in the history books as a monumental achievement that expanded access to healthcare to millions upon millions of Americans.  A massive accomplishment for human rights.

His presidency will also be remembered as the most polarizing of all time.  It has clearly exposed deep and dark rifts in the American political psyche, and exposed many on the right for the true extremists they are.  The birther movement, voter suppression, denial of science, government shutdowns, vulgar opposition to gay marriage, rampant misogyny and general disdain for the common man or woman will be their legacy for the beginning of this millennium.

Oh, and he was also the first black president. Kind of a big deal.

You realize you mentioned exactly one thing this 'above average' President has done in 6 years - ObamaCare.  And that was more the doing of Nancy Pelosi and senior House Democrat staff members than Obama and his staff.

Instead of any accomplishments, you brought up a handful of talking points the D's and Libs like to try to pin on their enemies and portrayed them in the worst light possible.  And they are either false (mostly) or don't add up to a hill of beans.

You conveniently declined to include his long list of failures, the incompetence in so many matters, and what looks to be intentional malevolent destruction, and flat out criminal actions.  I get that you probably agree with much of what he's done - realizing it's best left unsaid, but most of America doesn't.

Instead of always looking for articles and info that backs up your preconceived ideas, I recommend seeking out a variety of information sources.

[area51drone]

To put your conspirital mind at rest; you'll be (maybe) relieved to know that the CDC isn't the centre of the universe when it comes to tropical disease research. You can safely ignore any statement from any US institution and just read that from the rest of the world. By some quirk, they get the same results. MSF is a good place if you don't trust anything from the UK or USA.

It's no conspiracy.   The point is viruses mutate, become more resilient, etc.   To act like we know everything about viruses is a fucking lie to the Nth degree.  If that were the case, we'd have solved aids by now, but the best anyone can do is just treat the symptoms, throw a "drug cocktail" at it, and hope for the best.   A couple weeks ago, my wife told me about some article she read where the aids virus is adapting to these drug cocktails because of the heavy use of them in the gay community, and they're afraid that soon the cocktails won't work anymore.    So do they have some knowledge about how these things work?  Sure.  Do they know everything?  No.   Do viruses mutate?  Yes.   Does anyone know for sure how and when they'll mutate?  No.    Just be honest with yourself rather than say "it isn't going to happen" and admit that it could happen.

[The General]

Oh, and he was also the first black president. Kind of a big deal.

Annnd probably the last.

[aldousburbank]

Oh, and he was also the first black president. Kind of a big deal.

[attachimg=1]

[albrecht]

Why not 'err on the side of caution' and deny letting anyone have a driving license or a firearm unless they pass a psychological and aptitude test? Maybe because most generally don't care, as by extension they see it impinging on themselves.

I don't know about your EU rules, since you no longer effectively make your own laws, but here in the US laws on the books in many of the states I'm aware of DO prohibit getting a "driver's license" or firearm if one is mentally incapacitated. (The application of same might leave something to be desired by some since they were made more along the lines of individual freedoms and the idea of burden of proof being on the officials, not the individual. So, generally, just an affirmation by applicant especially with regard to driver's license.) You seem very uneducated on facts with your posts. Maybe even try a simply internet search before making those weird claims. Things like laws and statutes are easily accessible online.
18 U.S.C. § 922(d) (Federally)
Code §411.172 (example of state, even TEXAS!)
just one example from Texas (states issues motor vehicle operator licenses here, not the Feds)
http://info.sos.state.tx.us/pls/pub/readtac$ext.ViewTAC?tac_view=4&ti=37&pt=1&ch=15
but, of course, people do complain about the mental questions. Some have eliminated them. I doubt anyone at the DMV is schooled on the latest and greatest DSM anyway.
To wit:
http://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Mental-health-questions-on-driver-s-license-5147289.php

[WOTR]

What happened was an above average presidency, especially when compared to his predecessors in the last 50 years or so.

Obamacare, despite almost unprecedented vitriol from the right, and a very rocky initial rollout, is now largely a success.  It will remain the law of the land, be tinkered with and improved upon by subsequent presidents, and be viewed in the history books as a monumental achievement that expanded access to healthcare to millions upon millions of Americans.  A massive accomplishment for human rights.

His presidency will also be remembered as the most polarizing of all time.  It has clearly exposed deep and dark rifts in the American political psyche, and exposed many on the right for the true extremists they are.  The birther movement, voter suppression, denial of science, government shutdowns, vulgar opposition to gay marriage, rampant misogyny and general disdain for the common man or woman will be their legacy for the beginning of this millennium.

Oh, and he was also the first black president. Kind of a big deal.

I honestly like my universal health care despite some of the drawbacks it has and some of the problems that are being exposed (massive increases in costs with less push to find any real break-through treatments and many other problems...)  The fact is that when I looked at Obama care I was disgusted and continue to be.  Possibly if it becomes the first step towards a single payer system it will be judged as a success- but in it's present form it is an abysmal failure when viewing it from a left-leaning perspective.

To have guaranteed insurance companies a massive profit and used the law to force every person to carry that insurance is ludicrous.  To have a government pay private companies to insure lower income people is equally insane.  I can understand your argument looking at it from the left that it is good to have everybody insured.  However, using the law to enforce profits to private companies has to be seen as a crime.

Looking at it from a right leaning perspective (or free market) point of view it is the same.  There should not be a law that forces every person to give part of their cheque to a business that is free to gouge as they see fit.  (From this point of view it also may not be acceptable to have a single payer system- but I would still argue that it is a better alternative than others...)

I would also argue that the government shut down did not do massive, long lasting damage but may have forced people not normally engaged with politics and finances to look a little closer at them.  In the end, I think the awareness that it brought may have done more good than harm.  Engaging the citizens and forcing them to look at policies, debt and government programs is not a bad thing.  Perhaps some decided that it is necessary to cut spending... Perhaps some decided that they would rather be taxed a little more for the services they receive.  Either way, I think it may have forced people to consider what each side brings and what they represent.

[b_dubb]

Remember when it was cool to vote for Obama?  The O-bots convinced themselves that he was just so smart?

What happened?

You had a psychotic break from reality?

[PB the Deplorable]

He ran into a Republican House and a filibuster-addicted, obstructionist Senate minority that publicly vowed to make his Presidency; and thereby the country; a failure.

When he took office, he had a filibuster-proof Senate with the 60 votes and a Democrat controlled House.  Apparently Obama was not well liked in DC personally, from the start, even by his own party, and the White House was arrogant and incompetent when it came to working with even the Ds in Congress (surprise, surprise). 

They didn't do a thing legislatively, other than ObamaCare.  And that was driven by Nancy Pelosi and senior staffers.  It should be called PelosiCare, or 'The Guaranteed Funding of Insurance Companies Bill'.


Enter Ted Kennedy.  Thank goodness he had the decency to die and leave them with just 59 votes, first thing he ever did in his worthless life that benefited the country.

The 2010 election was one of 4 landslides* in my lifetime.  America did not want any more of his agenda fulfilled.  Period.  It's too bad the R's nominated another RINO in 2012.  When it came right down to it, just enough of the reasonable Independents and Reagan Democrats decided to stay home.


*Reagan in 1980 and 1984
The Gingrich revolution in 1994
2010 - The R's retaking the House, and a 6 seat pickup in the Senate

[VtaGeezer]

You had a psychotic break from reality?

He had one on 1/21/08.  Hasn't come out of it.

[Yorkshire pud]

I don't know about your EU rules, since you no longer effectively make your own laws, but here in the US laws on the books in many of the states I'm aware of DO prohibit getting a "driver's license" or firearm if one is mentally incapacitated.

Hmmm, but what if it's undiagnosed, and only found out post incident?

(The application of same might leave something to be desired by some since they were made more along the lines of individual freedoms and the idea of burden of proof being on the officials, not the individual.

Ergo, the burden of proof for Ebola infection lies with officials, not for the individual to prove they're not infected. Innocent until proven otherwise....


See, I can play that game too.

[pate]

Hoolee carp!  I am buying a bunch of that Survival Coffee stuff that sNoorge is advertising of late, or just sort of getting a bunch of Taster's Choice (tm) and putting it in single serv bags or something...  anyhow, when did the world end around my deaf ears without me hearing 'bout it?

Obola, is sucessuful (sp) nigh or something?

Wait, the last thing seriously said, I think there is something to be said for that there...

[paladin1991]

Canada has just joined the ranks of racist countries by restricting visas from Ebola countries.  That country went to hell when it adopted a Leaf flag rather than a Hab flag.

Racist bastards!

[PB the Deplorable]

"So a goodhearted person would be willing to take time out of their lives to go all the way to Africa and help people there, at the risk of some danger to themselves - but would change their minds and pass on that if it meant being quarantined for 3 weeks - at full pay - when they were ready to come back, so as to not risk exposing others here? "

Hey man boy (or, more accurately, man child) I thought you were all concerned about the constitution.  You do realize it is unconstitutional to lock someone up for no reason?


Another attorney representing Hickox, New York civil rights lawyer Norman Siegel, said she would contest any potential court order requiring her quarantine at home. “The conditions that the state of Maine is now requiring Kaci to comply with are unconstitutional and illegal and there is no justification for the state of Maine to infringe on her liberty,” he said.

I guess for you, the constitution only matters when you aren't frightened out of your tiny mind.  Typical dimwitted conservative hypocrite.

Quarantine's aren't illegal or Un-Constitutional.  If they were, wouldn't we have heard about it long before now?  And wondered how that could be?

What, just because her attorney said so?  That's what attorney's do much of the time - lie on behalf of their clients.

Surely you are familiar with the Due Process clause.  If health officials determine a quarantine is necessary, that's due process.  And that only comes into play if a quarantine truly rises to the level where we can claim it's An Arbitrary Denial of Life Liberty or Property Outside the Law.  I'm not sure it does.

If someone wants to sue, they are free to do so, just like with anything else.  I'm not sure what the basis of the lawsuit would be, or if they even have standing.  Obviously, if people are being held in appalling conditions, that should be addressed. 

[VtaGeezer]

If someone wants to sue, they are free to do so, just like with anything else.  I'm not sure what the basis of the lawsuit would be, or if they even have standing.

The basis would be imposition of a "medical" quarantine that ignores accepted and reviewed medical facts, and that epidemiologists with disease-specific expertise state is unnecessary.

[albrecht]

The basis would be imposition of a "medical" quarantine that ignores accepted and reviewed medical facts, and that epidemiologists with disease-specific expertise state is unnecessary.

Yes, but it would also matter one how/who initiated the quarantine. If Obama uses the Executive Order he revised recently to initiate the quarantine I'm guessing the lawsuit would be thrown out. Sovereign immunity etc. But even if not (or against the hospital, governor, TSA, if they initiated the quarantine) I'm guessing a lawyer could find experts on disease or epidemiologists would testify about "erring on side of caution" and a jury (with the media scaremongering) would likely find that a quarantine with such hardships of having WiFi, cable, good food, excellent medical care, central heating and cooling, in your own home could be warranted.