Russia: accusations of invasion

[bateman]

Shit, meet fan.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10669475/Ukraine-Russia-accused-of-armed-invasion-amid-claims-that-aircraft-are-flying-troops-to-Crimea.html

[albrecht]

Shit, meet fan.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10669475/Ukraine-Russia-accused-of-armed-invasion-amid-claims-that-aircraft-are-flying-troops-to-Crimea.html

As long as they don't march to the Dneiper, or further, it will be probably be ok. Unless US tries to escalate it. Crimea was already, basically, Russian with the bases and population and was an "autonomous" zone anyway. Interestingly, the latest Tom Clancy novel (actually written by Mark Greaney) plot line involves the Russian invasion of Ukraine, the Crimean peninsula in particular. Maybe that was why he was killed (kidding but there is a theory out there about his death)?

[FightTheFuture]

** STAND BY FOR TRANSMISSION FROM VLADIMIR ***


---- The weakness[/vts] flexibility of Obama has  led to a new opportunity for reconstitution of former Soviet Union future cooperation between Ukraine and Soviet Union Russia.

[Yorkshire pud]

** STAND BY FOR TRANSMISSION FROM VLADIMIR ***


---- The weakness[/vts] flexibility of Obama has  led to a new opportunity for reconstitution of former Soviet Union future cooperation between Ukraine and Soviet Union Russia.

Go on then Kissinger; Exactly what would you expect/ want Obama to do about Russian designs on a penninsular that was gifted to Ukraine by a drunken Khrushchev? Naturally the added complication is that a goodly proportion identify themselves as Russian and some Ukrainian. But you knew that of course before defaulting to your predicable anti Obama shot.Didn't you?

[Morgus]

Interesting map at CNN:
http://www.cnn.com/interactive/2014/02/world/ukraine-divided/?hpt=hp_t1

[PB the Deplorable]

Go on then Kissinger; Exactly what would you expect/ want Obama to do about Russian designs on a penninsular that was gifted to Ukraine by a drunken Khrushchev? Naturally the added complication is that a goodly proportion identify themselves as Russian and some Ukrainian. But you knew that of course before defaulting to your predicable anti Obama shot.Didn't you?

There is nothing we can do or should do.  Except point out a few things and use them as a learning moment.

When the USSR broke up there were obvious  complications.  One of them was the matter of nuclear arms stationed outside the Russian Republic.  In order to get the Ukraine to give up the nukes held in their country, the US and the UK signed an agreement in 1994 (Bill Clinton, John Major) to come to their aid militarily if the Russians were to invade in the future.  We basically lied to them, hoping it would not ever come to that.

Then the West put Ukraine on a path towards NATO membership.  We meddled in their 'Orange Revolution' - protests and events leading up to an election that eventually produced a pro-western/anti-Russian leadership. 

Our interest in the region is our relationship with Russia.  Their nukes, their help in Iran with their nukes, terrorism, trade, regional peace, regional democracy.  By meddling in former east bloc nations along Russia's borders, offering them NATO memberships, defense pacts, involving ourselves in their elections, we have put them at risk and ruined our relationship with Russia.  Clinton, Bush II, Obama, the State Department and the various Secretaries of State are all to blame.

If we had a leader, that person could go behind closed doors and warn the Russian off, or strike a deal.  Obama has shown himself to be weak, inept and uninterested, so that won't work now.  The leaders of the world have taken his measure on issues like the Iranian nuke situation, Benghazi, his failure to protect a friend and force for stability in Egypt, his standing down in Syria after drawing red lines, his weakness in the face of China annexing international waterways and airspace.

When we don't have a leader, it hurts us in our relations with our allies, and it encourages aggression in our enemies, and perhaps to miscalculate.  It's very dangerous to have a nobody as President - no matter how many new handout programs he creates.

Sarah Palin was ridiculed in 2008 for saying Obama would be weak in the face of a Russian invasion of Ukraine.  We were told by the Media that Obama would not be weak and the Russians would not invade.


A few of the lessons are - let's not sign agreements we aren't going to fulfill - it's bad for peace and stability, let's stop provoking the Russians for things that do not involve our national security, let's make sure we elect a leader next time, and let's stop assuming the Media knows all when they want to either play up their people and ideas or trash the opposition.

[FightTheFuture]

** STAND BY FOR NEW TRANSMISSION FROM VLADIMIR **

-- ComradePresident Obama, plan going exactly as transmitted via helpful idiot Prime Minister  Medvedev.


да здравствует Родина! Your BFF,

Vlad


Obama open mic slip: 'After my election I have more flexibility'

[Yorkshire pud]

** STAND BY FOR NEW TRANSMISSION FROM VLADIMIR **

-- ComradePresident Obama, plan going exactly as transmitted via helpful idiot Prime Minister  Medvedev.


да здравствует Родина! Your BFF,

Vlad

Yeah; But it's okay, only a  moron would believe that talks on North Korean nuclear capability had anything to do with the overthrow of a Russian friendly corrupt government in Ukraine by it's people. And as you have no context as to what the hell they were discussing puts you in the same field as the other morons who spout off and speculate on YT who just spout their prejudices rather than informed fact.

BTW, are you suggesting Russia is a communist country?

[wr250]

Yeah; But it's okay, only a  moron would believe that talks on North Korean nuclear capability had anything to do with the overthrow of a Russian friendly corrupt government in Ukraine by it's people. And as you have no context as to what the hell they were discussing puts you in the same field as the other morons who spout off and speculate on YT who just spout their prejudices rather than informed fact.

BTW, are you suggesting Russia is a communist country?

obama knew that noory sucked even back then. thats what he whispered to medvedev. what you actually hear is a classic youtube voice over to make the messiah in chief look bad. we all know vlad follows the messiahs orders.  but even the obamamessiah cant get noory off c2c.

[FightTheFuture]

Yeah; But it's okay, only a  moron would believe that talks on North Korean nuclear capability had anything to do with the overthrow of a Russian friendly corrupt government in Ukraine by it's people. And as you have no context as to what the hell they were discussing puts you in the same field as the other morons who spout off and speculate on YT who just spout their prejudices rather than informed fact.

BTW, are you suggesting Russia is a communist country?

Ohhh, I do love it when you get your little limey cockles all a flutter!

[albrecht]

Frankly we in the West and in the USA have more to fear from Obama than from Putin.

Can't we just break out the infamous "reset" button again? It seems to have worked so well in the past. Crimea is, basically, Russia and there is no way short of an all out war that Russia is going to give up their bases and interests there. As long as they don't march further into the Ukraine, especially past the Dneiper, it really doesn't concern us. Except for the McCains, Kissingers, Brzezinskis of the world to whom Russia is a fetish and war is a constant goal. I don't understand why we don't try to be allies, or at least friends, with the Russians instead of trying to start a new cold war. They should be a natural ally. A mainly Christian country, vast energy and mineral wealth, borders with the communist Chinese, and also dealing with sectarian and Islamic terrorists in their borders and surrounding them. But if we must be enemies with them than at least use some smart diplomacy and not "reset buttons" and limp-wristed statements. And promises to countries, protestors, and agitators (that we often fund) that we won't, or can't, keep.

[Yorkshire pud]

Ohhh, I do love it when you get your little limey cockles all a flutter!

I know you do sweedy. I do it just so you get a hard on..I am trying my best. Heroin kills erections though.   

[Dateline]

Their parliament just approved war.  Now, Obama said "There will be costs."

That is true, there is the cost of tank fuel, the cost of life and property.  Obama was right, there will be costs.  Nothing said, nothing done.  We have a limp-wristed president that only has the use of his oratory with no force behind it. 

Next, Chapter please.

[NowhereInTime]

Their parliament just approved war.  Now, Obama said "There will be costs."

That is true, there is the cost of tank fuel, the cost of life and property.  Obama was right, there will be costs.  Nothing said, nothing done.  We have a limp-wristed president that only has the use of his oratory with no force behind it. 

Next, Chapter please.

No, please, chickenhawk, explain.  You stating that after ten years in Iraq and 12 in Afghanistan, with a heavily depleted force, trillions of dollars of expenditure, and thousands of patriots dead that we should now, what, attack the Russians on their home turf?

Please look up: Operation: Barbarossa or Napoleon's "Second Polish War" and get back to me.  Thanks.

[Yorkshire pud]

Their parliament just approved war.  Now, Obama said "There will be costs."

That is true, there is the cost of tank fuel, the cost of life and property.  Obama was right, there will be costs.  Nothing said, nothing done.  We have a limp-wristed president that only has the use of his oratory with no force behind it. 

Next, Chapter please.

How benevolent you are to think of the Ukrainian people, not many right wingers do think of how others struggle with life. Bravo!

[albrecht]

Instead of trying to restart the Cold War we should be making friends, if not allies, of Russia. Certainly not more proxy wars, of worse. We face a common enemy in radical Moslems, terrorist China, Obama's machinations, and economic malaise. Russia also has lots of mineral wealth and Europe needs access to those gas pipelines. Instead of always picking fights (on both sides) we should try to get along. Why we do things like bomb the Chinese Embassy and have stand-off at the airport to defend radical Moslems, under Clinton or keep trying to foment instability in places like Syria, Georgia, Ukraine, etc is getting old. The Brezenskis, Kissingers, and McCains of the world time has passed.

Let them keep Crimea, it was basically theirs already, and have a plebiscite and maybe Ukraine is divided on ethnicity. Some of the characters we are supporting in the anti-Russian side are not angels either. Corruption is rife everywhere and the neo-nazi aficionados doing the protesting might bring even more problems. 

[NowhereInTime]

Instead of trying to restart the Cold War we should be making friends, if not allies, of Russia. Certainly not more proxy wars, of worse. We face a common enemy in radical Moslems, terrorist China, Obama's machinations, and economic malaise. Russia also has lots of mineral wealth and Europe needs access to those gas pipelines. Instead of always picking fights (on both sides) we should try to get along. Why we do things like bomb the Chinese Embassy and have stand-off at the airport to defend radical Moslems, under Clinton or keep trying to foment instability in places like Syria, Georgia, Ukraine, etc is getting old. The Brezenskis, Kissingers, and McCains of the world time has passed.

Let them keep Crimea, it was basically theirs already, and have a plebiscite and maybe Ukraine is divided on ethnicity. Some of the characters we are supporting in the anti-Russian side are not angels either. Corruption is rife everywhere and the neo-nazi aficionados doing the protesting might bring even more problems.

We need to become allies with Putin and his KGB thugs to thwart "Obama's machinations"?

Um, traitor.

[Bart Ell]

It may only be me but when I read Invasion I can only think of an album cover I went steady with in my youth.

[Yorkshire pud]

Instead of trying to restart the Cold War we should be making friends, if not allies, of Russia. Certainly not more proxy wars, of worse. We face a common enemy in radical Moslems, terrorist China, Obama's machinations, and economic malaise. Russia also has lots of mineral wealth and Europe needs access to those gas pipelines. Instead of always picking fights (on both sides) we should try to get along. Why we do things like bomb the Chinese Embassy and have stand-off at the airport to defend radical Moslems, under Clinton or keep trying to foment instability in places like Syria, Georgia, Ukraine, etc is getting old. The Brezenskis, Kissingers, and McCains of the world time has passed.

Let them keep Crimea, it was basically theirs already, and have a plebiscite and maybe Ukraine is divided on ethnicity. Some of the characters we are supporting in the anti-Russian side are not angels either. Corruption is rife everywhere and the neo-nazi aficionados doing the protesting might bring even more problems.

Hmmm, thing is, The UN disagree with you on the Russians wanting to take back the Crimea. As does Ukraine. There is no argument that a great many of the Crimeans wish to be Russian (as they speak the bloody language)..I think that what might happen is a referendum as to what they want to do...Stay in Ukraine, or go back to being under Russia's administration..either way, there will be losers.

[Yorkshire pud]

It may only be me but when I read Invasion I can only think of an album cover I went steady with in my youth.

She was lousy in bed. No adventure.

[albrecht]

We need to become allies with Putin and his KGB thugs to thwart "Obama's machinations"?

Um, traitor.

We need to become friends with Russia because peace is better than war. Why poke a stick at a bee's nest when it is not our business? Trade, travel, and business are better than wars. And when we have problems elsewhere (and many wars elsewhere). Sure, I understand certain interests make a lot of money from wars, and Cold Wars and proxy wars, even more so because of their duration but it is time to move on. When will this guy Obama actually "change" instead of continuing the Bush neo-con strategies and dreams from the Brzezinski, Kissingers, etc of the world? Russia is not our natural enemy. We share no borders with them and we each could nuke each other to kingdom come so pretty much check-mate each other.

As far as Obama traitor comment goes, we take no pledge of allegiance to our "dear leader" in this country. At least not yet. Obviously, I didn't vote for the guy but he is the President so I support him in his feeble attempts at diplomacy because we don't need more wars (maybe we should make another "reset button" to solve this Ukraine crisis?) And until he leaves office, is impeached, or steps down I hope he remains healthy. We don't need coups, or worse, in our country (though we fund and support them elsewhere.) Granted his vision of the country is not mine and he seems to harbor some very deep resentment towards the country, and Western civilization in general, but I wish him no harm.

[Bart Ell]

She was lousy in bed. No adventure.

Don't blame her, the cardboard cut out you used was just low quality and gave way under your weight.

[albrecht]

Hmmm, thing is, The UN disagree with you on the Russians wanting to take back the Crimea. As does Ukraine. There is no argument that a great many of the Crimeans wish to be Russian (as they speak the bloody language)..I think that what might happen is a referendum as to what they want to do...Stay in Ukraine, or go back to being under Russia's administration..either way, there will be losers.

There will be losers no matter what, at this point, at least. But there are always losers just hopefully they will be minimized and not expanded in more losing as a real war or continued proxy war rioting will. The corruption is the biggest problem in the area (and in Russia). I'm not sure how stable a regime can be long-term that way. At least our corruption in the west changes hands sometimes and doesn't impact us daily for every petty matter or business dealing.

As for the UN I really don't care what they say either way and think it should be dissolved or at least left unfunded in our next budget. Who cares what unelected bureaucrats from every tinpot dictatorship think even if the big boys still have veto power over everything? Countries can negotiate treaties and relationships without interference and costs of the UN.

[The Neverender]

Are there any free "learn Russian" programs online... Seems like it might be useful to be able to communicate withy our future overlords

[Yorkshire pud]

Are there any free "learn Russian" programs online... Seems like it might be useful to be able to communicate withy our future overlords

Learn Russian, but because you want to , not because of some far fetched belief that Russia will invade the rest of the world. Russia has neither the resources or the inclination. They have no desire to 'spread frdm, or dmocrcy'.

There will be losers no matter what, at this point, at least. But there are always losers just hopefully they will be minimized and not expanded in more losing as a real war or continued proxy war rioting will. The corruption is the biggest problem in the area (and in Russia). I'm not sure how stable a regime can be long-term that way. At least our corruption in the west changes hands sometimes and doesn't impact us daily for every petty matter or business dealing.

It isn't as simple as corruption being the biggest problem, and leave it at that. Russia has a naval base on the coast of the Black Sea. It has no desire any time soon to relinquish it. It tolerated Ukraine having the Crimea region because the incumbent government was Russia friendly and wasn't going to rock the boat and have any designs on asking ever so nicely if Putin wouldn't mind removing his fleet and base from what was Ukrainian territory. (A bit like the Philippines asking the USA to fuck off from it's shores). Then the added advantage to Russia, is that most Crimean people identify themselves as Russian rather than an annex of Ukraine that Khrushchev had foisted on them. Hence the current stand off. Putin sees it as an opportunity to get Crimea back (knowing it's people would agree to it), keep the naval base and fleet intact, and let Ukraine live with it...

As for the UN I really don't care what they say either way and think it should be dissolved or at least left unfunded in our next budget. Who cares what unelected bureaucrats from every tinpot dictatorship think even if the big boys still have veto power over everything? Countries can negotiate treaties and relationships without interference and costs of the UN.

Yes but in the REALWORLDâ,,¢, the UN was formed as a replacement of the League of Nations to intervene in the event of such conflicts. Primarily to avoid little local problems such as all out nuclear war. The fact that nations cannot negotiate relationships (except in fairy stories where everyone lives happy ever after in Simpleworldâ,,¢) points to a global arbiter; If they did have a natural tendency to negotiate we wouldn't have wars, trade disputes, embargoes, famine, arms trading etc. Yes, the big hitters can and do veto, but the fact of the matter is, without the UN most countries wouldn't have a voice. Is it a perfect solution, no, of course not, because we still have wars, famine, trade embargoes etc...But abandoning the tenets of the UN would result in far more conflicts than we have now. 

[albrecht]

It isn't as simple as corruption being the biggest problem, and leave it at that. Russia has a naval base on the coast of the Black Sea.

Yes but in the REALWORLDâ,,¢, the UN was formed as a replacement of the League of Nations

Crimea was already an semi-autonymous zone and no way would Russia leave it (sans a real war in which they lose it after much blood-shed.) It already was, effectively, a part of Russia.

The UN was not "made" as a replacement of the League of Nations (which wisely the US never joined despite the secret machinations of "Col" House) but made up of the "United Nations", the allies, who fought WWII against the Axis powers, claiming to take over from the League but really keeping the Allies in charge (hence the veto powers, influence of the major players, refusal to recognize certain countries, etc.) We don't need some global police force or global government because the further the power away is from the people the less democratic and less free it is. Especially is these days of modern technology any country, no matter how small, can instantly contact, sign treaties, have conversations with any other country. No need for billion dollar budgets of unelected people in NYC telling the world what to do.

[albrecht]

Crimea was already an semi-autonymous zone and no way would Russia leave it (sans a real war in which they lose it after much blood-shed.) It already was, effectively, a part of Russia.

The UN was not "made" as a replacement of the League of Nations (which wisely the US never joined despite the secret machinations of "Col" House) but made up of the "United Nations", the allies, who fought WWII against the Axis powers, claiming to take over from the League but really keeping the Allies in charge (hence the veto powers, influence of the major players, refusal to recognize certain countries, etc.) Good job, I would rather all things considered that the USA, UK, etc be in charge but it is a joke to claim it is some kind of global, feel-good everybody is equal entity. Especially considering how many wars, sorry "police actions", it got us into also or the previous cabal's decisions on national borders, allowing communists to take certain areas, etc which still cause conflicts we see today.

We don't need some global police force or global government because the further the power away is from the people the less democratic and less free it is and the opportunity for corruption increases. Especially in these days of modern technology any country, no matter how small, can instantly contact, sign mutual defense treaties, have conversations with, do trade with, any other country. No need for billion dollar budgets of unelected people in NYC telling the world what to do much less approving more wars, sanctions, or regulations on sovereign nations and peoples.

[FightTheFuture]

With regard to the geo-political landscape, Putin is playing three dimensional chess,  while our idiot is still trying to learn checkers.

Obama's weakness and indecison has sent the world spiraling into turmoil. Putin, along with the Chinese, are more than  obliged to fill the power void Obams has created. Unfortunately,  hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of people will be slaughtered as a result, and the United States' standing in the world will suffer for years to come.

[Yorkshire pud]

Crimea was already an semi-autonymous zone and no way would Russia leave it (sans a real war in which they lose it after much blood-shed.) It already was, effectively, a part of Russia.

The UN was not "made" as a replacement of the League of Nations (which wisely the US never joined despite the secret machinations of "Col" House) but made up of the "United Nations", the allies, who fought WWII against the Axis powers, claiming to take over from the League but really keeping the Allies in charge (hence the veto powers, influence of the major players, refusal to recognize certain countries, etc.) We don't need some global police force or global government because the further the power away is from the people the less democratic and less free it is. Especially is these days of modern technology any country, no matter how small, can instantly contact, sign treaties, have conversations with any other country. No need for billion dollar budgets of unelected people in NYC telling the world what to do.

Hmmm, good luck with getting  that to work.. (Thumbs up smiley)

[Yorkshire pud]

With regard to the geo-political landscape, Putin is playing three dimensional chess,  while our idiot is still trying to learn checkers.

Obama's weakness and indecison has sent the world spiraling into turmoil. Putin, along with the Chinese, are more than  obliged to fill the power void Obams has created. Unfortunately,  hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of people will be slaughtered as a result, and the United States' standing in the world will suffer for years to come.

Can you show me where it says that that the USA has absolute control over everything that happens anywhere on the planet? I know Bush believed it, but the reality is otherwise. Funny how all the invasions and wars that have been carried out by the USA are quietly forgotten as acts of aggression.

But that aside; Just how is it proposed Obama (or indeed any head of any country) gets Putin in a headlock and force him to withdraw his troops and equipment (and interim admin head) from Crimea without catastrophic results? The funny thing is, if asked the Crimean people would by a majority choose to be under the Russian umbrella; Maybe they should be asked?