Zero tolerance teaches kids valuable lesson: don't trust authority figures

[bateman]

http://reason.com/blog/2014/02/26/zero-tolerance-teaches-students-importan

[b_dubb]

http://reason.com/blog/2014/02/26/zero-tolerance-teaches-students-importan

You have to be a fascist asshole to want to be a teacher these days

[Ben Shockley]

You have to be a fascist asshole to want to be a teacher these days

Or a total masochist.  Reason #125 why I'm not still in that general field.

[Yorkshire pud]

You have to be a fascist asshole to want to be a teacher these days

No, I think the opposite. And teachers these days can't do right for doing wrong. It's why the default position has gone from not enforcing discipline in case it upsets the parents who frequently don't know best, to virtual paranoia so that anything has to be dealt with in an overly officious way or they'll be accused of not paying attention.. I wouldn't be a teacher even if I was qualified. It's too much shit for too little reward.

[b_dubb]

No, I think the opposite. And teachers these days can't do right for doing wrong. It's why the default position has gone from not enforcing discipline in case it upsets the parents who frequently don't know best, to virtual paranoia so that anything has to be dealt with in an overly officious way or they'll be accused of not paying attention.. I wouldn't be a teacher even if I was qualified. It's too much shit for too little reward.

American education is a pitiful joke. Ma babysitting service in most cases and not a very good one.

[onan]

Anybody can be a parent. And most are celebrated. Good thing I am not king.

I am tired of the education system getting the shitty end of the stick. More often than not any punishment directed at the student in question meets with public outcries of the school is wrong. And it ends up with schools having no authority except zero tolerance.

Yes some school admins are worthless, but in the whole, that isn't true.

[Ben Shockley]

...teachers these days can't do right for doing wrong... It's too much shit for too little reward.

I know that y'all are talking about grade schools, but trust me: some aspects are the same at "post-secondary" levels.  I know that a lot of folks in here are college / univ grads --i.e., you've been students-- but not a lot have taught at that level.  Without tenure, which is harder to get these days, teaching at college / univ level stinks.

[Birdie]

I have a good friend who is a grade school art teacher. He is a very sweet, caring, and open guy and the kids absolutely adore him. He's one of the 'cool' teachers. The little first graders sometimes hug him. He has to stand absolutely stock still and is supposed to tell the kid 'hugging is inappropriate contact, you must respect my personal space,' type crap. There is an exact phrase, but I can't remember it. He cannot touch them in any way, whatsoever, even a pat on the back. They are freaking 5 and 6 year olds! They hug everyone and everything that holds still for long enough.

Even more messed up, the female teachers are not held to the same standards and there is no reprimand if they are seen hugging on their kids. He says it makes him feel like a big, pervy, rude, asshole when he has to say the phrase to one of his kids or when he cannot properly comfort an upset or crying child.
Everyone is more worried about getting sued than they are about the emotional health and happiness of the kids. It is sad. No wonder things seem to be getting worse.

[West of the Rockies]

I know that y'all are talking about grade schools, but trust me: some aspects are the same at "post-secondary" levels.  I know that a lot of folks in here are college / univ grads --i.e., you've been students-- but not a lot have taught at that level.  Without tenure, which is harder to get these days, teaching at college / univ level stinks.

As someone who teaches English at the CC level, I can say that, yes, teaching is often exhausting and unpleasant.  Something like 76% of all post-secondary courses are now taught by adjunct faculty who have little or no job security or benefits.  Grading hundreds of essays each term is mind-numbing; the public speaking aspect is always over-looked.  It is stressful and ego-destructive. 

What DO you do now, Ben, if you don't mind my asking?  You could PM me if you'd like.

[Ben Shockley]

Something like 76% of all post-secondary courses are now taught by adjunct faculty who have little or no job security or benefits... It is stressful and ego-destructive.

Far be it from me to make stuff over-sociopolitical!  But I suppose that you all know that de-professionalization is the "conservative" vision for essentially all sectors of American labor, right?  Yeah: from me, that's a damning indictment of capitalist labor economics, but you $25,000/year "capitalists" in here should proudly own it!  You promote and defend with a religious fervor every other thing that destroys your quality of life, so I know you'll love "deprofessionalization" when it hits you too-- if it hasn't already.

Somewhere in another thread today I saw P*B spouting how "the private sector always does things more cheaply."  Aside from the immoral logic necessarily underlying that assertion, the fact is that the only thing "cheaper" under "the private sector" is the treatment of workers.  Like you said, WestOf: no security, no benefits; those all accrue to the ownership class.  Ownership's huge self-maximized benefits, according to ol' P*B --added to every other cost-- always lower costs!  But obviously, only by brutally slashing pay and benefits to labor, which is a natural goal and inevitable result of capitalism.  Y'all got that, you wage earners who somehow think that you're "capitalists?"
By that same logic, diversion of profits toward ownership also generates a better product --restaurant food, medical care, education, you name it-- by making the worker as miserable, resentful, and depressed as possible! What could be more logical?  Y'all know it: same way that you think that workers making or doing things for you should be in that job strictly for the half-assed medical insurance!  Right?  It's good for workers to be where they hate being!

...Grading hundreds of essays each term is mind-numbing; the public speaking aspect is always over-looked.

I resisted using scantron forms for a long time; I finally relented.  Soon after that, I stopped requiring term papers in lower-division courses, because I realized that I cared more about students' grades than some of them did, and I was spending more time and thought in writing commentary on their papers than they had put into "writing" (I use the term generously) the damn things.
The speaking / lecturing: just an offhand memory-- I always felt more comfortable speaking in those "amphitheater" classes, where the rows of seats rise as they get farther back; I don't know why.  Somehow, standing "over" a class of level seats just generally shook me more.  For some reason, I could feel more comfortable looking up & out at an amphitheater of 300 than "down" at 30.

What DO you do now, Ben, if you don't mind my asking?

Let's say I'm in flux.    Don't be surprised if I "do an Art Bell," decamping for another country.  With less money and less personal drama.

[bateman]

I have a good friend who is a grade school art teacher. He is a very sweet, caring, and open guy and the kids absolutely adore him. He's one of the 'cool' teachers. The little first graders sometimes hug him. He has to stand absolutely stock still and is supposed to tell the kid 'hugging is inappropriate contact, you must respect my personal space,' type crap. There is an exact phrase, but I can't remember it. He cannot touch them in any way, whatsoever, even a pat on the back. They are freaking 5 and 6 year olds! They hug everyone and everything that holds still for long enough.

Even more messed up, the female teachers are not held to the same standards and there is no reprimand if they are seen hugging on their kids. He says it makes him feel like a big, pervy, rude, asshole when he has to say the phrase to one of his kids or when he cannot properly comfort an upset or crying child.
Everyone is more worried about getting sued than they are about the emotional health and happiness of the kids. It is sad. No wonder things seem to be getting worse.

This makes me really sad.

[b_dubb]

I am tired of the education system getting the shitty end of the stick. More often than not any punishment directed at the student in question meets with public outcries of the school is wrong. And it ends up with schools having no authority except zero tolerance.

You're smooshing two issues together here in my opinion. The state of education in America and what amounts to a blame game between student and school.  I'd agree that there are times when a school gets the blame when a student should have demonstrated personal responsibility.  But that doesn't change the fact that education in America has been an ongoing social experiment since the 60's.  It's been disastrous on a lot of levels.  My dad has been in education since the early 60's and blames forced busing for the collapse of the city of Dayton and Dayton Public Schools.  Dayton Public Schools used to be a shining example of how a school system should be run.  Now they're ruined.  The same is true of Columbus schools and I imagine the same could be said for every other city in Ohio and probably the USA. 

If there's a solution I imagine it would involve an emphasis on math, science and writing.  And a rejection of the coddling that a lot of psychologists have been encouraging.  Students need to see that their actions have consequences.  The endless hand holding that people seem to think kids require is part of the problem.  I'm not saying we need to adopt the child rearing strategies of ancient Sparta but the education system needs to raise the bar.  It seems like all they've done is lower it over the last twenty or thirty years.  And the US govt needs to make education a priority and not an afterthought.  That means funding school budgets and teacher salaries.

One thing that's really disappointed me over the years is how uninformed teachers seem to be about their subject.  My high school english teacher could diagram the fuck out of a sentence but had no fucking idea who William Faulkner was.  And my geometry couldn't explain the importance of math beyond it's application to carpentry.  I had no interest in becoming a carpenter when I was 16 but I damn near dropped out of school to become an auto mechanic because of how much I hated school. 

[FightTheFuture]

You're smooshing two issues together here in my opinion. The state of education in America and what amounts to a blame game between student and school.  I'd agree that there are times when a school gets the blame when a student should have demonstrated personal responsibility.  But that doesn't change the fact that education in America has been an ongoing social experiment since the 60's.  It's been disastrous on a lot of levels.  My dad has been in education since the early 60's and blames forced busing for the collapse of the city of Dayton and Dayton Public Schools.  Dayton Public Schools used to be a shining example of how a school system should be run.  Now they're ruined.  The same is true of Columbus schools and I imagine the same could be said for every other city in Ohio and probably the USA. 

If there's a solution I imagine it would involve an emphasis on math, science and writing.  And a rejection of the coddling that a lot of psychologists have been encouraging.  Students need to see that their actions have consequences.  The endless hand holding that people seem to think kids require is part of the problem.  I'm not saying we need to adopt the child rearing strategies of ancient Sparta but the US needs to make education a priority and not an afterthought.

As a product of a much more efficient Springfield, Ohio school system (60`s), I can tell you that the teacher unions and government regulation have absolutely fucked our education system up beyond ALL recognition. Charter schools are ONE answer. There are other solutions. However, we must allow good teachers to teach and make more money, while reserving the right to terminate the employment of bad teachers.

[b_dubb]

As a product of a much more efficient Springfield, Ohio school system (60`s), I can tell you that the teacher unions and government regulation have absolutely fucked our education system up beyond ALL recognition. Charter schools are ONE answer. There are other solutions. However, we must allow good teachers to teach and make more money, while reserving the right to terminate the employment of bad teachers.

I can't tell you how many times I've heard my dad go off on teacher unions.  It's another example of protecting a bad worker.

I grew up about 10 miles West of Springfield.  We're neighbors.  Loosely speaking.

[PB the Deplorable]

... Somewhere in another thread today I saw P*B spouting how "the private sector always does things more cheaply."  Aside from the immoral logic necessarily underlying that assertion, the fact is that the only thing "cheaper" under "the private sector" is the treatment of workers.  Like you said, WestOf: no security, no benefits; those all accrue to the ownership class.  Ownership's huge self-maximized benefits, according to ol' P*B --added to every other cost-- always lower costs!  But obviously, only by brutally slashing pay and benefits to labor, which is a natural goal and inevitable result of capitalism.  Y'all got that, you wage earners who somehow think that you're "capitalists?"
By that same logic, diversion of profits toward ownership also generates a better product --restaurant food, medical care, education, you name it-- by making the worker as miserable, resentful, and depressed as possible! What could be more logical?  Y'all know it: same way that you think that workers making or doing things for you should be in that job strictly for the half-assed medical insurance!  Right?  It's good for workers to be where they hate being!...

And yet we're talking about pay and working conditions in public sector schools.  So let's bash... the private sector and the capitalist system? 

The fact is the capitalist system has created more wealth for everyone than any other system.  It offers more opportunity than any other system.  It rewards those with talent who are willing to put in the effort. 


It's too bad what the Libs have done to or schools over the past 40 years.  It's time the Teachers Unions and Educrats returned the schools to the teachers, parents, and local school boards.


You don't get it Ben, everything the Libs touch turns to shit

[Ben Shockley]

You don't get it Ben, everything the Libs touch turns to shit

You're right, dude.  That one last admonishment convinced me.  Blind, metastatic, rapacious capitalism is marvelous.

P*B, I can't help but think that IF ONLY some flower-child chick had spread 'em for you way back when, or hadn't laughed at what happened when she did, we wouldn't be reading your broken record of:

  -- anyone who claims to want to help people (a "liberal") is really out to kill you and rape your dog
  -- the only people to trust are those who show you that they don't give a damn ("conservatives")

I think I'll start calling you P*L  =  PRETZEL*LOGIC

[PB the Deplorable]

... P*B, I can't help but think that IF ONLY some flower-child chick...

Ha!  Well there was the girl with green hair and wild sparkly makeup - she was selling magic wands and giving away tabs of acid at one of my early Grateful Dead shows in Golden Gate Park...

She was a lot cooler than the chick with purple hair that bit me at a Stones show a few years earlier.

[albrecht]

Ha!  Well there was the girl with green hair and wild sparkly makeup - she was selling magic wands and giving away tabs of acid at one of my early Grateful Dead shows in Golden Gate Park...

She was a lot cooler than the chick with purple hair that bit me at a Stones show a few years earlier.

It depends your frame of mind and what your mood is. Sometimes, not saying me, sometimes prefer the half-shaved head chicks waiting on the side while one beats the hell out of each other and slams around other guys listening to some FEAR concert. Other times one likes the Grateful scene. Or a Willie's Picnic anywhere in the heat. Or the parking lot partying before a Maiden show. (Or pit at Megadeth or Exodus show.) To me, they are all awesome because the experiences are real and you never know what might happen.

[NowhereInTime]

Ha!  Well there was the girl with green hair and wild sparkly makeup - she was selling magic wands and giving away tabs of acid at one of my early Grateful Dead shows in Golden Gate Park...

She was a lot cooler than the chick with purple hair that bit me at a Stones show a few years earlier.

Pleeeeeeeze.  Girl with green hair and a "magic wand".  Ever seen RuPaul's Drag Race?

[NowhereInTime]

It depends your frame of mind and what your mood is. Sometimes, not saying me, sometimes prefer the half-shaved head chicks waiting on the side while one beats the hell out of each other and slams around other guys listening to some FEAR concert. Other times one likes the Grateful scene. Or a Willie's Picnic anywhere in the heat. Or the parking lot partying before a Maiden show. (Or pit at Megadeth or Exodus show.) To me, they are all awesome because the experiences are real and you never know what might happen.

Great.  Reichsmarshall Albrecht loves the ladies, so long as they beat the living hell out of each other.  So incredibly real.  That's how all great relationships started!!

God, sometimes watching some of you post is like watching an episode of "Criminal Minds."

[onan]

It depends your frame of mind and what your mood is. Sometimes, not saying me, sometimes prefer the half-shaved head chicks waiting on the side while one beats the hell out of each other and slams around other guys listening to some FEAR concert. Other times one likes the Grateful scene. Or a Willie's Picnic anywhere in the heat. Or the parking lot partying before a Maiden show. (Or pit at Megadeth or Exodus show.) To me, they are all awesome because the experiences are real and you never know what might happen.

You truly do need therapy. I am not joking.

[PB the Deplorable]

Pleeeeeeeze.  Girl with green hair and a "magic wand".  Ever seen RuPaul's Drag Race?

Said the guy who hangs around with the Occupy derelicts

[albrecht]

Great.  Reichsmarshall Albrecht loves the ladies, so long as they beat the living hell out of each other.  So incredibly real.  That's how all great relationships started!!

God, sometimes watching some of you post is like watching an episode of "Criminal Minds."

Please, let us keep this polite. Apparently you've never been to a punk rock concert it wasn't the ladies who beat up each other as I said, they are on the side, with their weird half-shaved heads, watching the guys beat each other up. A very odd scene. But who knows what happens in the recent decades but I suggest everyone should at least attend one of every type of music. There is something primal in punk and an odd connection also, I think, between heavy metal and classical. Which, I'm sure has been known now (with bands doing concerts with prominent philharmonics) but odd none the less. Best, of course, is classical music or, in the right place, an opera (and, no, I'm not saying only Wagner which is a bit too bombastic even for me.)
ps: But thank you for the promotion. A Reichsmarshall! Mein Gott I never would've thought I'd reach that rank....

[NowhereInTime]

Said the guy who hangs around with the Occupy derelicts

Yeah, but those were actual chicks.  And I don't need to brag.