NFL may pull the plug on AZ Super Bowl if anti-gay bill passes

[onan]

Ok, so the black guy should serve up a bagel for the klansman then? "Give me my fucking bagel you low ass N***** servant. Know that I am white and superior."

See, if you're going to frame it that way, you need to accept and advocate what others will use it for and use the same argument. I just say fuck it, let people fight it out on their own. No law needed.

Excellent point. If the white supremacist just orders a bagel... hell yes. If the aryan bloke at the same time does any kind of assault... no.

[SciFiAuthor]

Excellent point. If the white supremacist just orders a bagel... hell yes. If the aryan bloke at the same time does any kind of assault... no.

Yes, but we wrote laws regarding assault centuries ago. They worked then and still do. But do we really need to descend into a quagmire where we say "You, gay guy, you can be protected against discrimination with a law that says a business owner can't discriminate" and then turn around at the same time and say "You, black baker, you can refuse the business of a Klansman because you know he doesn't like you". Well, how complicated do we want this?

Easier way is to just let people picket the baker and get their message out instead of resorting to questions about what degree the constitution protects you contingent on what society, at this exact moment, thinks you should be entitled to.

[onan]

Yes, but we wrote laws regarding assault centuries ago. They worked then and still do. But do we really need to descend into a quagmire where we say "You, gay guy, you can be protected against discrimination with a law that says a business owner can't discriminate" and then turn around at the same time and say "You, black baker, you can refuse the business of a Klansman because you know he doesn't like you". Well, how complicated do we want this?

Easier way is to just let people picket the baker and get their message out instead of resorting to questions about what degree the constitution protects you contingent on what society, at this exact moment, thinks you should be entitled to.

Well obviously the courts disagree with you. Consumers... not so much. Chik-Filet suffered nothing from it's position on their treatment of homosexuals. Well they lost my business, and I can see it hurt them demonstrably.

I find it odd that the gay couple should just walk it off, but the baker isn't asked to do something similar.

[SciFiAuthor]

Well obviously the courts disagree with you. Consumers... not so much. Chik-Filet suffered nothing from it's position on their treatment of homosexuals. Well they lost my business, and I can see it hurt them demonstrably.

I find it odd that the gay couple should just walk it off, but the baker isn't asked to do something similar.

Oh they definitely disagree, and I don't like the court system. I have criticism for the right as well. I don't see how a business would care where their sales come from. A business can't afford to do that unless it has a marketing angle. Money is money, and the only reason you would be like Chick-Fil-A is if you were targeting a religious and homophobic market and were trying to present yourself as one of them. But that really constitutes a marketing ploy, you know as well as I do that they are target marketing and looking at money rather than matters of religion. They're snowing people and making a sneaky buck.

The baker owns his own business. You're asking the baker to be forced to make a cake he disagrees with. Well, you just try that with a painter or sculptor. Actually, I dare you to do that.

Everyone needs to lighten up a bit and get the government out of this.

[PB the Deplorable]

Do you think that all laws should be scrapped and government disbanded and just allow the population decide amongst themselves what is right and wrong?

I'm waiting for Alec Baldwin to weigh in

[onan]

I'm waiting for Alec Baldwin to weigh in

My thoughts, exactly.

[Birdie]

You live in a more complicated world than that. I think they'd patronize the hell out of a business that refuses them just to draw attention to the matter. All special interest groups do.

Of course. The question was: should a black business owner have the right to refuse service to a Klansman. The answer to that is no. And there is no way a white supremacist would deign to support a business owned by a black person, so the question is basically pointless. The only correlation between what is happening in AZ and your proposed scenario is discrimination and denial of free speech/thought.

Considering my family has lived in the DC Metro area for over 50 years moves in political circles, I am very well acquainted with special interest groups and how they operate. I even happen to know some real, live lobbyists! Gasp! I have seen and heard some very interesting things in my time and I am pretty sure I have a firm grasp on how complicated the world is, especially the world of politics. But thanks for the tip.

Although, I still don't see how the single, hypothetical klansman trying to do some shopping morphed into a special interest group and protests, considering the simplicity of the question.

[gbneely]

Then sell cakes at his church. I am so fucking sick of religion being used for exclusion. Does he also choose to not sell to those that worked on Sunday or dressed in clothing with more than one type thread. Do you think the baker makes sure his flour, starch, and sugar are grown with no other crops in the field?

Fuck the baker and his religion.

Are you being obtuse for effect or is this not an act? I'm not going to discuss theology, but you've shown an incredible lack of understanding regarding the Christian faith. Basically, I get the impression your initial uninformed rantings were to make your closing statement seem based in some manner of intellectual thought. You missed the mark.

If you take religion off the table in this discussion, this boils down to freedom of association. Any person who owns a private business should be able to do, or not do, business with whomever they choose. If their beliefs are out of sync with the community they do business in, the market will get rid of them in due course and rightfully so. It should be an issue for the market to decide, not one for more government interference into the lives of people.

[onan]

Are you being obtuse for effect or is this not an act? I'm not going to discuss theology, but you've shown an incredible lack of understanding regarding the Christian faith. Basically, I get the impression your initial uninformed rantings were to make your closing statement seem based in some manner of intellectual thought. You missed the mark.

If you take religion off the table in this discussion, this boils down to freedom of association. Any person who owns a private business should be able to do, or not do, business with whomever they choose. If their beliefs are out of sync with the community they do business in, the market will get rid of them in due course and rightfully so. It should be an issue for the market to decide, not one for more government interference into the lives of people.

Funny I was going to use obtuse to describe you. I used a bit more restraint.

I am not the one that made religious beliefs the issue.

I am not going to change your superstitious beliefs, they are yours to deal with.

And by the way... fuck the baker and his religion.

[wr250]

Easy answer. NFL (IF it chooses) doesn't play the Superbowl in AZ. There are a few dozen states to choose from.

57 last i heard. well only 56 if you remove AZ.

That would be an anarchist, so no, I'm nothing close to that. I'm saying that you can write 1,000, 10,000, a million laws and you will still not solve every problem of mankind. Do you think you can? Where does it stop?

We have way too many laws and are way to quick on the draw to write them. At this point, whether you like it or not, whether you know it or not, you are a felon. You have violated some law, somewhere, at some time that could jail you. It could be a choice of an orchid you have out in the yard, or spilling a can of oil or some other chemical while you're working on the car. It's simply a matter of whether a prosecutor wishes to go after you. It's like that in all western countries. Our legal systems cannot be condensed to a book. The require a library full of thousands of volumes, perhaps more.

Well, you tell me how that's acceptable. Hell, tell me how it's even intelligent to do that.

how about having them remove some laws, you know the ones. like the following:
a woman shall not drive a motorized vehicle unless a man walks in front waving a lantern.

It is illegal to wear a fake moustache that causes laughter in church. (hear that noory?)

and so on . see http://www.dumblaws.com/ for more

[gbneely]

Funny I was going to use obtuse to describe you. I used a bit more restraint.

Then I'm glad I used it first.

I am not the one that made religious beliefs the issue.

I thought the whole thread had to do with religious beliefs.

I am not going to change your superstitious beliefs, they are yours to deal with.

Got it. I won't be looking for a Christmas card from you.

And by the way... fuck the baker and his religion.

Have a Blessed day!

[Bart Ell]

You're asking the baker to be forced to make a cake he disagrees with.

http://cookingwithcum.com/

[awake]

Yes! More government christian regulation of business! Always good to get MORE government religion involved! What could go wrong??

^^ fixed that for you pal.


It is a religious freedom bill.  The same basic legislation is working through the state governments of Missouri,Georgia, Ohio and Nevada.  The States of Kansas, Tennessee and South Dakota have already looked into and shelved (for now) the same basic "religious freedom" legislation.  It's a continuation of the evangelical overreach happening in portions of the U.S. currently.  As was noted in another thread this week, 46% of Americans believe that Earth is 6,000 years old. 
Also, the bill is so broadly written that a person could legally deny service to more than lgbt persons: a restaurant could deny service to a single mother if the owner believes that sex outside of marriage is a sin, any deeply held religious conviction is justification for refusal of service to ANYBODY.  Arizona already allows for discrimination against gays, in AZ you can be fired or not hired if you are gay; this new bill is something else entirely.  I know that bumper sticker snark is HILARIOUS but this bill is much much more than an anti-gay bill.

[Yorkshire pud]

^^ fixed that for you pal.


It is a religious freedom bill.  The same basic legislation is working through the state governments of Missouri,Georgia, Ohio and Nevada.  The States of Kansas, Tennessee and South Dakota have already looked into and shelved (for now) the same basic "religious freedom" legislation.  It's a continuation of the evangelical overreach happening in portions of the U.S. currently.  As was noted in another thread this week, 46% of Americans believe that Earth is 6,000 years old. 

And 25% believe the sun goes around the Earth...scary..

[

Also, the bill is so broadly written that a person could legally deny service to more than lgbt persons: a restaurant could deny service to a single mother if the owner believes that sex outside of marriage is a sin, any deeply held religious conviction is justification for refusal of service to ANYBODY.  Arizona already allows for discrimination against gays, in AZ you can be fired or not hired if you are gay; this new bill is something else entirely.  I know that bumper sticker snark is HILARIOUS but this bill is much much more than an anti-gay bill.

What?? You mean overtones of a religious centric legislature along the lines of oh, I dunno Saudi Arabia? Or Pakistan? Or Eire? Whether or not you're affiliated to any religious indoctrination or not? What are you thinking?

[awake]

Please give a few examples of daily religious intolerance you get hit with.
TIA

In god we trust on money, the addition of under god to the pledge of allegiance in '54, state "blue laws" regarding the sale of alcohol (exception being Nevada) are institutional instances of religion forcing it's values upon every citizen.  If you are blind to the sway christianity has in this country, try running for office as an atheist http://www.gallup.com/poll/155285/atheists-muslims-bias-presidential-candidates.aspx.

[West of the Rockies]

It seems like this basic issue pops up semi-regularly:  religious toes being "stepped on".  In response, someone brings up the hypothetical Klansman or some such example.  But said Klansman is always hypothetical.  Discrimination based on faith is not - it's a feature (not a bug). 

And yet without the big, bad gubmint getting involved, intolerance will worsen.  There was a time in this country when you could not vote if you were black, female, Jewish, Catholic; the government changed that injustice; it is attempting something similar when it strikes down BS legislation such as that in AZ.

[aldousburbank]

I want to open a pet shop in AZ in which we sell rattlesnakes. All customers who request them in a bag rather than carried out will void their purchase.

[West of the Rockies]

Have you taken The Lord Jesus Christ as your personal Savior?  No?  Then get the hell outta my business!

Isn't that about what it comes down to? 

[wr250]

I want to open a pet shop in AZ in which we sell rattlesnakes. All customers who request them in a bag rather than carried out will void their purchase.

id like a box please

[West of the Rockies]

How many religions are there; how many of them say , "Believe as we say or suffer eternal damnation!"?  Let's go with the so-called "great religions":  Judaism, Islam, Christianity, Hinduism... If they all have that my way or the highest (to hell) belief, then about a fifth of the world might go to heaven; everyone else, no soup for you!

It all seems very odd to this agnostic....

[NowhereInTime]

Are you being obtuse for effect or is this not an act? I'm not going to discuss theology, but you've shown an incredible lack of understanding regarding the Christian faith. Basically, I get the impression your initial uninformed rantings were to make your closing statement seem based in some manner of intellectual thought. You missed the mark.

If you take religion off the table in this discussion, this boils down to freedom of association. Any person who owns a private business should be able to do, or not do, business with whomever they choose. If their beliefs are out of sync with the community they do business in, the market will get rid of them in due course and rightfully so. It should be an issue for the market to decide, not one for more government interference into the lives of people.

Freedom of association is a personal choice made individual to individual.  When you operate a business in the public domain, you have created an open market for all individuals.
What is so sacrosanct about business that it should be permitted to trample over human and civil rights?  I find no passage in the Constituion respecting the rights of discrimination based on whether or not you operate a business.
In fact, I find that pesky 15th amendment specifically outlawing discrimination based on race, color, or previous condition of servitude.  Really a stretch to extend that to lgbt?

[PB the Deplorable]

...  It's a continuation of the evangelical overreach happening in portions of the U.S. currently...

Which is of course very different from the overreach of Left-wing radicalism happening across the US currently. 

You know - like intentional destruction of jobs, stealing our health care insurance and lying about it, bankrupting the nation and destroying the currency, hollowing out the military, setting up a police state complete with saturation spying, a President and an Attorney General seizing powers beyond those granted to their office, aiding our enemies and undermining our friends.

But at least we'll get more gay baked goods, and more graffiti artists and poets will be freed from the horrors of 'job lock'.

[PB the Deplorable]

... What is so sacrosanct about business that it should be permitted to trample over human and civil rights?...

What is so sacrosanct about gayness that it should be permitted to trample over freedom of religion and civil rights?

[wr250]

How many religions are there; how many of them say , "Believe as we say or suffer eternal coast to coast am with george noory!"? 
It all seems very odd to this agnostic....

fixed that for you

[RealCool Daddio]

I agree with you, it serves no purpose other than to just write yet another law. People should just spread the word or stand around outside the bakery and hold up some signs if they don't like the place's business practices.

Yeah, cause that always turns out well:

[attachimg=1]

[Yorkshire pud]

What is so sacrosanct about gayness that it should be permitted to trample over freedom of religion and civil rights?

Nothing: But why should it be seen as less? When has homosexuality been used to trample over religions? I can show you loads of examples of the opposite-latest in Uganda..Recent events in Sochi, Russia, although not religious based was/is still oppression. In several countries being homosexual carries the death penalty.

[RealCool Daddio]

You live in a more complicated world than that. I think they'd patronize the hell out of a business that refuses them just to draw attention to the matter. All special interest groups do.

Klansmen are a special interest group? Your true stripes are showing, sir.

[tastycanadian]

Pulling a SuperBowl from Arizona while keeping a team there would make no sense. Even if the law passes(doubtful) I bet the NFL still has a SuperBowl there, sure some advertisers wouldnt stick around but I bet the majority would just for a commercial during the SB. Its all money.

[wr250]

classic bateman. posts a controversial subject, then amuses himself with the debacle that occurs .
im on to your twisted fetish bateman

[West of the Rockies]

fixed that for you

Oh, that IS horrifying!  An eternity of the mustachioed one bungling pronunciations and asking inane questions!  Shivers.... 😖