ObamaCare - Real Life Answers from Doctors

[FightTheFuture]

The rats are jumping off the sinking SS Obama and swimming their way to the SS RINO


http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2014/02/20/218707/with-voters-still-skeptical-dozens.html

[onan]

Yeah and Alaska was Seward's Folly.

[UnscreenedCaller]

Long, long before the ACA, I worked for a doctors' group and at that time, it was insurance companies like Cigna and Aetna that were paying office visits a sum ($35-$40) that didn't even cover the office staff's hourly salaries, never mind the doctors. To make money, they had to see more patients. To see more patients, they had to spend less time with each, even though this group exceled in call backs and visit time. The insurance companies began to dictate how the practice was run, and I saw that in my GYN's practice as well, since they had to cover their overhead plus pull in enough to cover enormous insurance coverage. And the insurance companies began to dictate who got covered and for what, and I'm not speaking about costly experimental treatment, but people turned down for insurance for pre-existing conditions like MS. I actually saw that happen.

My current cardiologist is a doctor's doctor. He's not practicing medicine for money, he's in it to do some good. He's all for the ACA if it means coverage for those who can't see a doctor for symptoms before they become life-threatening or even ending. When that happens, it costs far in excess of what simple screening tests would cost.  But even he says we are due for a single payer system, like Canada. This ACA is very much like Romneycare in Massachusetts. It's better than nothing for the people who need insurance, but it could have been much, much better, without sacrificing the quality of medical care which, sadly, falls along economic lines for many people. Last year, I received my copay check back in the mail for basic gyn screening, as the insurance company moved in line with the ACA. I'm all for anything that breaks the insurance companies hold on the practice of medicine.

[FightTheFuture]

But even he says we are due for a single payer system, like Canada.

The vaunted Canadian HC system just killed my dear friend`s father. yes, they killed a strong, vibrant, 74 year old, Italian man, full of life.

Thanks to Canadian single payer, that wonderful man was made to sit in an ER for THREE FREAKING DAYS ("sorry; no rooms available" and, hey; he`s just an old guy -- low priority) while exhibiting textbook symptoms of sepsis. By the time those clowns admitted him and began treatment with antibiotics, his organs had already begun to shut down and it was too late.

If it`s that bad up there, Just think how horrible it would be in this  country with 350 million people. Add to the mix open borders being overrun with sick second and third world non-english speaking immigrants, and a shrinking pool of physicians along with 18 TRILLION DOLLARS IN DEBT.

[Yorkshire pud]

The vaunted Canadian HC system just killed my dear friend`s father. yes, they killed a strong, vibrant, 74 year old, Italian man, full of life.

Thanks to Canadian single payer, that wonderful man was made to sit in an ER for THREE FREAKING DAYS ("sorry; no rooms available" and, hey; he`s just an old guy -- low priority) while exhibiting textbook symptoms of sepsis. By the time those clowns admitted him and began treatment with antibiotics, his organs had already begun to shut down and it was too late.

If it`s that bad up there, Just think how horrible it would be in this  country with 350 million people. Add to the mix open borders being overrun with sick second and third world non-english speaking immigrants, and a shrinking pool of physicians along with 18 TRILLION DOLLARS IN DEBT.

If people don't speak English does that preclude them from health care? Explain the conditions effecting people taken on by insurance companies when they have pre-existing conditions known or not?

As for your friends father, yep, it's unfortunate, but look at it like this: It's bullshit. No-one in Canada would be sitting in A&E for three days without being looked at by a doctor. So I suspect he had sepsis before admitting and the medics tried to save him but couldn't.

About these 'second and third' world countries...Infant mortality rates per 1000 live births... USA 5.2. (a well known island off the coast of Florida) clue...Castro:  4.76. European Union as a whole: 4.49. France 3.34. Canada 4.78.. UK 4.5...

[onan]

People do die waiting in emergency rooms. It happens here, in the US with "the best health care" in the world and as of yet no single payer. so it isn't evil socialist Canada's emergency room that was the culprit. It was the disease process, patient's age and luck, and bad circumstances. And that happens everywhere.

[FightTheFuture]

If people don't speak English does that preclude them from health care? Explain the conditions effecting people taken on by insurance companies when they have pre-existing conditions known or not?

As for your friends father, yep, it's unfortunate, but look at it like this: It's bullshit. No-one in Canada would be sitting in A&E for three days without being looked at by a doctor. So I suspect he had sepsis before admitting and the medics tried to save him but couldn't.

Poor, non-English speaking Latinos, which constitute the majority of people illegally entering our Southern border, have a much more difficult time seeking medical attention because..well..they don`t speak the language! That also puts a greater strain on the HC system as a whole (see California).

With regard to my friend`s dad, he would be alive and laughing about this whole incident had they listened to me, and got on a plane -- as I pleaded with them to do (at my expense) -- and flown here to have this thing treated promptly by a competent physician and hospital.

And don`t even think for a moment that this kind of thing doesn`t go on in jolly ol` England, my friend. I`ve spent time in Liverpool hospital and let me tell you, it`s one of the most depressing spectacles I`ve ever witnessed!

[Yorkshire pud]

Poor, non-English speaking Latinos, which constitute the majority of people illegally entering our Southern border, have a much more difficult time seeking medical attention because..well..they don`t speak the language! That also puts a greater strain on the HC system as a whole (see California).

Get used to it, by 2050 over 50% of the US will be Spanish. Come full circle really....

With regard to my friend`s dad, he would be alive and laughing about this whole incident had they listened to me, and got on a plane -- as I pleaded with them to do (at my expense) -- and flown here to have this thing treated promptly by a competent physician and hospital.

Wow, that was news to me, I didn't realise that no-one died in US hospitals.. Incredible. Even mote incredible that the US has the worlds pool of competent medics...

And don`t even think for a moment that this kind of thing doesn`t go on in jolly ol` England, my friend. I`ve spent time in Liverpool hospital and let me tell you, it`s one of the most depressing spectacles I`ve ever witnessed!

Oh, I'm with you on that, hospitals depress me too, but hey if you'd bothered to read what I've put before, both my parents, my ex wife, my son, myself, and several friends have been thankful for the care they received free at the point of need...No insurance companies saying they wouldn't pay out, no £30000 bill after treatment .... You like paying out like that, go ahead..

[FightTheFuture]

People do die waiting in emergency rooms. It happens here, in the US with "the best health care" in the world and as of yet no single payer. so it isn't evil socialist Canada's emergency room that was the culprit. It was the disease process, patient's age and luck, and bad circumstances. And that happens everywhere.

Yeah, sorry, but it was Canada`s HC system that killed that man! ANY first year resident should have immediately recognized Mr. G`s symptoms and acted accordingly. Instead, he was placed on IV Hydromorphone for pain until he could be admitted and made to linger while the infection invaded his vital organs.

That hospital would be sued out of existence in the states. And we`re not talking about an under-funded, under-staffed, inner-city ER dumping ground, either. This was one of the most -- supposedly -- reputable outfits in Ontario!

It`s just very, very upsetting.

[Yorkshire pud]

Yeah, sorry, but it was Canada`s HC system that killed that man! ANY first year resident should have immediately recognized Mr. G`s symptoms and acted accordingly.

Yeah? Which ones? A first year junior house officer might not see a case of blood poisoning in their first twelve months practice. But people do die all over the world in A&E..

Instead, he was placed on IV Hydromorphone for pain until he could be admitted and made to linger while the infection invaded his vital organs.

That hospital would be sued out of existence in the states. And we`re not talking about an under-funded, under-staffed, inner-city ER dumping ground, either. This was one of the most -- supposedly -- reputable outfits in Ontario!

It`s just very, very upsetting.

Yeah, suing them out of existence would be helpful...your friend would get paid (or rather the lawyers) and the local population near the hospital would go without a hospital...But hey, never mind. Presumably everyone who goes in said hospital dies? Oh hang on...

[FightTheFuture]

Get used to it, by 2050 over 50% of the US will be Spanish. Come full circle really....

What, precisely, does that have to do with anything I said?? God, man! Stop being so damn obtuse for once!

And they won`t be "Spanish"!

Wow, that was news to me, I didn't realise that no-one died in US hospitals.. Incredible. Even mote incredible that the US has the worlds pool of competent medics...

This didn`t have to happen for the reasons I outlined. So, either you`re too dopey to comprehend what I wrote, or you`re just trying to be your usual uncongenial juvenile self. I haven`t the patience for either.

Oh, I'm with you on that, hospitals depress me too,

Liverpool hospital was tantamount to  a medieval chamber of horrors. Blood and filth on the floors, people lined-up (excuse me; queued up) down halls....

I`m glad your family got out alive, but I wouldn`t have taken my pet rat into that joint.

[Yorkshire pud]

What, precisely, does that have to do with anything I said?? God, man! Stop being so damn obtuse for once!

And they won`t be "Spanish"!

My mistake..Spanish speaking...

I`m glad your family got out alive, but I would have taken my pet rat into that joint.

Silly man, it's a vet you need..Vets deal with animals.

[onan]

Yeah, sorry, but it was Canada`s HC system that killed that man! ANY first year resident should have immediately recognized Mr. G`s symptoms and acted accordingly. Instead, he was placed on IV Hydromorphone for pain until he could be admitted and made to linger while the infection invaded his vital organs.

That hospital would be sued out of existence in the states. And we`re not talking about an under-funded, under-staffed, inner-city ER dumping ground, either. This was one of the most -- supposedly -- reputable outfits in Ontario!

It`s just very, very upsetting.

Upsetting is an understatement. That, I fully realize. But you have to know that misdiagnoses don't just happen in Canada. The legal aspect... I will leave alone. I have seen what seemed to be apparent be turned upside down.

I have sympathy for your friend. And it would be great if all medical systems were perfect. They aren't.

[PB the Deplorable]

... God, man! Stop being so damn obtuse for once!...

Yeah, good luck with that.

Despite socialism making things worse and more expensive every single time, people are convinced it's somehow different for medical care.  It isn't.  One would think the burden of proof would be on them.

[onan]

Yeah, good luck with that.

Despite socialism making things worse and more expensive every single time, people are convinced it's somehow different for medical care.  It isn't.  One would think the burden of proof would be on them.

If socialism makes things more expensive, why does the US have the highest costs and expenditures for healthcare?

[UnscreenedCaller]

The vaunted Canadian HC system just killed my dear friend`s father. yes, they killed a strong, vibrant, 74 year old, Italian man, full of life.

Thanks to Canadian single payer, that wonderful man was made to sit in an ER for THREE FREAKING DAYS ("sorry; no rooms available" and, hey; he`s just an old guy -- low priority) while exhibiting textbook symptoms of sepsis. By the time those clowns admitted him and began treatment with antibiotics, his organs had already begun to shut down and it was too late.

If it`s that bad up there, Just think how horrible it would be in this  country with 350 million people. Add to the mix open borders being overrun with sick second and third world non-english speaking immigrants, and a shrinking pool of physicians along with 18 TRILLION DOLLARS IN DEBT.

FtF, my mom died of sepsis because her HMO rationed screening and she was considered too old for a colonoscopy. By the time she was admitted to the hospital ER with symptoms her doctor had advised her to take Aleve for, it was already too late and without going into the horrifying details, she died a week later, mercifully. I sympathize with anyone who loses a loved one to neglect or malfeasance, including your friend, it's happened in my family too, but in my mother's case the fault was on the part of the Florida HMO which rewarded her physician for not scheduling a routine screening because she was triaged due to age. It cost her life and we lost our mother. It's important that we have healthcare in the US that promotes diagnostic screening.

[PB the Deplorable]

If socialism makes things more expensive, why does the US have the highest costs and expenditures for healthcare?

I admit to not being all that well versed in the business end of medical care.  So I can't answer you specifically.  I do know that the private sector does things more efficiently and at less cost.  I also know that people who put together studies using numbers have ample opportunity to lie, and often a willingness to do so.

I'll acknowledge that Capitalism is mean and ruthless when it is unchecked.  That is why we have regulations, need governing bodies from the SEC to the USDA, labor laws, courts to sort out contract disputes, and all the rest.  No doubt about it.


When claims get tossed around in the Media and elsewhere that 'healthcare is more expensive in America', it makes me wonder.  Are we doing more in certain fields than other places, such as dental or mental health care?  Or access to the newest costliest drugs and equipment?  Or even something like elective surgery? 

We do considerably more medical research here than other countries do.  Are those costs included?  We develop more pharmaceuticals and more medical equipment than other countries.  Are those costs included?  We have 10's of millions of poor illegal immigrants who often use our most expensive form of medical care (emergency rooms) to get their medical care.  Do other countries have these costs? 

Between Federal, State, and Local, we have all sorts of agencies and programs, often overlapping each other.  They are riddled with bureaucracy, fraud, and overpayments.  They each have a director, a bunch of other highly paid administrators, and plenty of other overhead.  That has to cost more than a single national agency.  I don't know what percentage of our medical sector is private vs public, but I'd guess the public portion is a good chunk of the entire medical sector (just Medicaid, Medicare, and the VA are considerable).  I'd also guess these organizations are less efficient and streamlined than what is done in the private sector.

How about lawsuits - do these other countries have as many millions leaking out of the system and handed over to trial lawyers?  Or the resulting high cost of malpractice insurance for every doctor?


I don't really know, but just hearing that government running anything is somehow better and cheaper doesn't ring true.  Especially if it comes from the Media, academia, or the bureaucracies themselves.  Each of those groups are on record as willing to flat out lie when it comes to getting what they want - in this case, 'single payer' (i.e., socialized medicine)

[Yorkshire pud]

I admit to not being all that well versed in the business end of medical care.  So I can't answer you specifically.  I do know that the private sector does things more efficiently and at less cost.  I also know that people who put together studies using numbers have ample opportunity to lie, and often a willingness to do so.

I have £1000; I have a company (Health) that has share holders who won't invest unless I make sure that £1000 is used efficiently..Problem: The things I'd like to do I can't because I need more than £1000. I'd like to do A-Z...however, if I want to keep my shareholders sweet, I can only afford to do A-E, L-O, and T-W...

Efficient.. Shareholders happy. The letters that can't be covered can be paid for by those who can afford it, however if they have pre-conditions, (known or not), I'll either double their cost or simply say no..

I have a publically owned company (Health), and I have no shareholders other than the public who not only pay for it, but reap it's rewards irrespective of their wealth..I can provide A-Z to all.

As for the rest, you admit to not knowing, and speculate on a great deal of the rest, medical research is worldwide, particularly France, UK , and Germany.

If you want private, go ahead, no-one (least of all me) would deny you that, but because you go that path because you can afford it, don't play the arbiter of other people's health because they're not as wealthy.

Insurance companies do just that. They effectively 'play god'. They're not a charity, they're an assessor of risk to them.

[PB the Deplorable]

In your scenario, wouldn't health care actually be less (since the expensive procedures are denied)?


Putting that aside, come on.  We've all read the horror stories of socialized medicine as well.  There is rationing, denial of expensive procedures and medicine, long waits for some patients, and all the rest.   People here are much less likely to die waiting their turn, or because their hospital doesn't have updated equipment.  You don't think your government has an incentive to cut costs, to cut care?.

We don't want $10 a gallon gas and a national sales tax of 20% (VAT) and who knows what all else here to pay for it.  For 85% of the country (and higher than that if we aren't counting people here illegally who should go home) our system worked pretty well.


The issue is why didn't Obama, Pelosi and the D's address the actual specific problems instead of trying to change (and screw up) the whole thing?  Even they knew to promise people they could keep their insurance and keep their doctors if they wanted, even when they knew the whole time it was a lie.

[Yorkshire pud]

Oh come on.  We've all read the horror stories of socialized medicine as well.  There is rationing, denial of expensive procedures and medicine, long waits for some procedures, and all the rest.

And insurance companies don't deny services? Ever? Everyone who is signed up to health insurance never gets denied the care? Never got told that they'll be not having an expensive procedure treated because the claimant wasn't aware they had it?

We don't want $10 a gallon gas and a national sales tax of 20% (VAT) and who knows what all else here to pay for it.  For 85% of the country (and higher than that if we aren't counting people here illegally who should go home) our system worked pretty well.

Only your system doesn't work for a great many. Including those who are not illegal residents. Your infant mortality is worse than Cuba's.

The issue is why didn't Obama, Pelosi and the D's address the problems instead of trying to change the whole thing?  Even they knew to promise people they could keep their insurance and keep their doctors if they wanted, even when they knew it was a lie.

Private and public health can work alongside each other..There's a reason private hospitals in the UK don't have A&E.. No money in it.

[PB the Deplorable]

And insurance companies don't deny services? Ever? Everyone who is signed up to health insurance never gets denied the care? Never got told that they'll be not having an expensive procedure treated because the claimant wasn't aware they had it?...

Yes that happens.  It's an outrage.  It needs to be fixed. 

That doesn't mean boot everyone into ObamaCare

... Only your system doesn't work for a great many. Including those who are not illegal residents. Your infant mortality is worse than Cuba's...

You realize the US figures include stillborns and Cuba's don't?

[onan]

I admit to not being all that well versed in the business end of medical care.  So I can't answer you specifically.  I do know that the private sector does things more efficiently and at less cost.  I also know that people who put together studies using numbers have ample opportunity to lie, and often a willingness to do so.

I'll acknowledge that Capitalism is mean and ruthless when it is unchecked.  That is why we have regulations, need governing bodies from the SEC to the USDA, labor laws, courts to sort out contract disputes, and all the rest.  No doubt about it.


When claims get tossed around in the Media and elsewhere that 'healthcare is more expensive in America', it makes me wonder.  Are we doing more in certain fields than other places, such as dental or mental health care?  Or access to the newest costliest drugs and equipment?  Or even something like elective surgery? 

We do considerably more medical research here than other countries do.  Are those costs included?  We develop more pharmaceuticals and more medical equipment than other countries.  Are those costs included?  We have 10's of millions of poor illegal immigrants who often use our most expensive form of medical care (emergency rooms) to get their medical care.  Do other countries have these costs? 

Between Federal, State, and Local, we have all sorts of agencies and programs, often overlapping each other.  They are riddled with bureaucracy, fraud, and overpayments.  They each have a director, a bunch of other highly paid administrators, and plenty of other overhead.  That has to cost more than a single national agency.  I don't know what percentage of our medical sector is private vs public, but I'd guess the public portion is a good chunk of the entire medical sector (just Medicaid, Medicare, and the VA are considerable).  I'd also guess these organizations are less efficient and streamlined than what is done in the private sector.

How about lawsuits - do these other countries have as many millions leaking out of the system and handed over to trial lawyers?  Or the resulting high cost of malpractice insurance for every doctor?


I don't really know, but just hearing that government running anything is somehow better and cheaper doesn't ring true.  Especially if it comes from the Media, academia, or the bureaucracies themselves.  Each of those groups are on record as willing to flat out lie when it comes to getting what they want - in this case, 'single payer' (i.e., socialized medicine)

There are a few misconceptions here. Believe it or not most pharmaceutical companies are foreign based. 80% of medications... other countries. Scientific research is somewhat difficult to explain. Yes the US does claim the majority. And that is true... on its face. but many studies also have co-authorship with other countries and that trend is increasing... to me that is a good thing. But it does beg the question about financial accountability. Are the costs really in this country or are they shared to give the biggest tax advantage and subsidies? I don't know, I do wonder. But in all candor more medical research is done in the US... that used to be completely donation driven within universities. Now big money has taken over and they expect ROI's even in research.

Most of the things you present as reasons for higher costs are reasonable to question. I can assure you that other than a handful of hospitals illegal/undocumented aliens is a small fraction of costs. Doctors and hospitals love to toss malpractice as a reason for their increased costs, rather than admit they function within sloppy practice. Mostly due to under staffing and overburdened workers. So in my mind that cost is reasonable.

You raise an interesting point: if money is no object then some should have access all the time. This is where economics become cruel, as you stated. And lucky for most of us there is an historical timeline for the Hippocratic oath. Ethics preclude, at least in theory, that only the wealthy can be healthy.

And yes insurance companies are actuarial, and if that is the direction you wish to choose... welcome to Logan's Run. Medicine is ethics. And it's crucial for medicine to hold that principle.

[FightTheFuture]

Hollyweird is now jumping ship along with the other rats!


http://thehill.com/blogs/healthwatch/health-reform-implementation/199121-obamacare-stars-fade

[Yorkshire pud]

Another demonstration how backward the health service is in the UK....No innovation, no advancements, no pioneering achievements. How much would this cost an insurance company IF it was covered?



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26397037

[onan]

Thank goodness for the UK. Some of the best current treatments for mental illness seem to be coming from there. Revamping cognitive therapies are making positive strides in treating patients with schizophrenia.

[Yorkshire pud]

Thank goodness for the UK. Some of the best current treatments for mental illness seem to be coming from there. Revamping cognitive therapies are making positive strides in treating patients with schizophrenia.

Slightly off topic, but this is something I've suspected for years. Dyslexia is used (IMO) as a catch all to excuse illiteracy and dilutes it for those who really do struggle with it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-26360655

[onan]

Slightly off topic, but this is something I've suspected for years. Dyslexia is used (IMO) as a catch all to excuse illiteracy and dilutes it for those who really do struggle with it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-26360655

I don't know a great deal about learning disabilities. But I suspect several "scape goat" diagnoses instead of poor parenting. But that in and of itself can create a mental health problem... frikken brains and their need for stability.

[b_dubb]

Just stop being poor. It's so simple it hurts my brain.

http://www.hulu.com/watch/605513