Over the Air DTV Antennas

[area51drone]

I have a Tivo Series 4, and we still had the cable card inserted even when we got the cable TV turned off.  So, yeah, I'm guessing it has to do with having the cable card.  I had forgotten that aspect until you brought it up.

That had to be it.   I'm surprised they didn't ask for it back, and they probably just forgot to deactivate it.    They demanded I give them back one of their converter boxes (gave me 2 initially) when I got the cable card for my Tivo HD.   I figure if I turn it off they'll ask for both when I shut off service.     

[area51drone]

I only use a Roku anymore. Netflix, Amazon Prime, Youtube via myvideobuzz and /r/fullmoviesonyoutube, which is random in content and quality, but sometimes there's new releases in 1080p. I regularly watch movies while they're still in theaters with it. Live streaming it doesn't do too well, but I don't watch TV enough to care.

Yeah we do all three too, but I hadn't heard about this reddit listing.   Nice.  I will keep that link around.   Looks like there is one for tv shows too:  http://www.reddit.com/r/fulltvshowsonyoutube/

[HorrorRetro]

I just checked out those links and found quite a few '70's movies I want to see. Nice! 

[analog kid]

I have a Roku, but I end up getting frustrated every time I try to watch movies.  The majority of movies I try to watch are older, from the '70s, and they show up totally pixilated and unwatchable.  The commercials come through fine, but the movies do not. I'm guessing the channels streaming the movies just have crappy copies or something.

Yeah, 99% of what's on Rokus is just crap. It's great for VOD and as a Plex Media Server client, and the software update that added M-Go movies is pretty neat. I have an old 2XS, and the wi-fi chip in it is worthless. I had to run 25' of cat5 cable through the attic. Which luckily is exceptionally easy in my house because it was built in the 70s as an electronics repair shop, and has "accommodations" for running cables anywhere in it. Not the most accommodating living space in any other respect though.

[area51drone]

FYI, for those of you not in the know, if you spoof your location, netflix will give you a whole different assortment of videos you can watch.   See this CNN video:

http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/tech/2014/01/31/hola-internet-app-allows-you-to-access-netflix-from-anywhere.cnn.html

A friend of mine told me about this about 6 months ago, and it's definitely true.   There are other plugins besides Hola that essentially do the same thing.

[steelbot]

FYI, for those of you not in the know, if you spoof your location, netflix will give you a whole different assortment of videos you can watch.   See this CNN video:

http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/tech/2014/01/31/hola-internet-app-allows-you-to-access-netflix-from-anywhere.cnn.html

A friend of mine told me about this about 6 months ago, and it's definitely true.   There are other plugins besides Hola that essentially do the same thing.

shhhhh!!!!!

lol - i've been using hola since it came out and is awesome, pretty much goes into any typical re-install along with ad-blocker plus

[area51drone]

shhhhh!!!!!

lol - i've been using hola since it came out and is awesome, pretty much goes into any typical re-install along with ad-blocker plus

Yeah well I thought it was a pretty well known secret until I saw it on CNN.  LOL

[area51drone]

Aereo visits the supreme court today...

http://apnews.myway.com//article/20140422/DADB64MG2.html

[Mind Flayer Monk]

A decision is expected by late June.

[Kate the Bionic Uterus]

A decision is expected by late June.

I can't see how Aereo can win without paying the Networks. Even if the courts rule in favour of Aereo the Networks have an "ace in the hole" whereby they can just stop transmitting over the air altogether.

[Mind Flayer Monk]

I can't see how Aereo can win without paying the Networks. Even if the courts rule in favour of Aereo the Networks have an "ace in the hole" whereby they can just stop transmitting over the air altogether.

Aereo is basically a bunch of antennas right next to  the transmitter; so Aereo's business model in essence is they "rent" you one of their antennas. What you do with it is your business, and you are legally allowed to watch TV you receive through "your" antenna, regardless of where you live (this is how slingbox works). That is the argument their lawyers are making.

I think they might win because there is a considerable amount of computing that runs under similar legal usage laws-mainly data centers, where you rent the use of computers near a certain market, such as next to the New York Stock Exchange or in a low-cost power area.

Here is the trail transcript (the hearing was 1 hour long, the transcript is 53 pages + some record-keeping pages).
http://www.supremecourt.gov/oral_arguments/argument_transcripts/13-461_o7jp.pdf

[Kate the Bionic Uterus]

Aereo is basically a bunch of antennas right next to  the transmitter; so Aereo's business model in essence is they "rent" you one of their antennas. What you do with it is your business, and you are legally allowed to watch TV you receive through "your" antenna, regardless of where you live (this is how slingbox works). That is the argument their lawyers are making.

I think they might win because there is a considerable amount of computing that runs under similar legal usage laws-mainly data centers, where you rent the use of computers near a certain market, such as next to the New York Stock Exchange or in a low-cost power area.

I understand the technology and what they are doing. I have followed since the last hearings. Why? Because it has serious repercussions up here in Canada.

I may not have explained myself clearly; I think Aero will win the case in court. They have won every other attempt to stop them and as you have pointed out, their argument is strong.

Here's where they will lose; in the end the Networks will just stop transmitting over the airwaves. See where I am going here? There is no law stating that the Networks have to transmit over the airwaves. And so Aereo will lose.

In the end I am willing to bet 1 Satoshi of a Bitcoin that they do end up making a deal with the Networks. Similar to like when Netflix argued for Net neutrality but in the end now pays the telephone companies that control internet traffic to make sure the end user is able to watch the movies/tv shows stutter free.

Aereo may win theoretically/legally but financially in order for them to win they will have to make a deal with the Networks in the end. There is no way around this no matter the the legal results of this case are. 

[area51drone]

up here in Canada.

This explains so much about you.

Here's where they will lose; in the end the Networks will just stop transmitting over the airwaves. See where I am going here? There is no law stating that the Networks have to transmit over the airwaves. And so Aereo will lose.

You think so, eh?    

Nah, this will never happen.  The moment the big three in the US drop their OTA programming, the government will step in and broadcast it anyway.  There are far too many poor people who can't afford cable and "need" their free tv.  There are also many many households out of reach of cable.  Even places you would think would be accessible to cable, are not.   A piece of property I was looking at recently, in town, cable refused to bring service to it because it wasn't economical for them.    Sure there is satellite TV, but to get local information, emergency broadcasts etc, you still need OTA.

In the end I am willing to bet 1 Satoshi of a Bitcoin that they do end up making a deal with the Networks. Similar to like when Netflix argued for Net neutrality but in the end now pays the telephone companies that control internet traffic to make sure the end user is able to watch the movies/tv shows stutter free.

Netflix went along with this because for them, it is smarter to pay for the service and pass the cost along to you and me, and make it that much harder for a start up to come take them over.   They probably have a backroom deal with Comcast that they will have a competitive advantage over competing services in terms of bandwidth cost.   This is quite scary, and very anti-competitive IMO. 

[Juan]

I can't see how Aereo can win without paying the Networks. Even if the courts rule in favour of Aereo the Networks have an "ace in the hole" whereby they can just stop transmitting over the air altogether.

The networks don't transmit over the air.  Local affiliates, most owned by other companies, do the transmission.

[area51drone]

The networks don't transmit over the air.  Local affiliates, most owned by other companies, do the transmission.

Good point, you're right.   So the local stations will keep them on the air.   ABC/CBS/NBC don't want to lose all those affiliates paying for the right to broadcast their content.

[Juan]

It's more than that.  The networks supply programming to the local affiliates.  Within the programming are a certain number of "network" commercials that are sold by the network sales staff based on national ratings.  The affiliates have to air the network commercials in order to air the program. (There are also commercial breaks built into the program for local commercials).

Broadcasters never seem to be very forward thinking.  I would guess that the networks (and local affiliates) could make money by getting some kind of report from Aereo about the number of subscribers in a given area (Nielsen could probably do that).  They could build the Aereo numbers into their commercial rate card. In fact, I would think it would be a benefit in selling to youth oriented advertisers to be able to say that in addition to x number of television viewers, we have y number of viewers on portable devices.

Also, there are probably union rules to be considered.  Radio station streaming was halted for awhile because of union rules about airing voice-over talent.

[area51drone]

Also, there are probably union rules to be considered.  Radio station streaming was halted for awhile because of union rules about airing voice-over talent.

Fools.  Like you're saying, a viewer is a viewer.   Really, why would even affiliates care if you're watching their content, it shouldn't matter if it's free over the air or distributed to yourself over the internet.

Sheesh.

[Kate the Bionic Uterus]

The networks don't transmit over the air.  Local affiliates, most owned by other companies, do the transmission.

Networks have said if they lose the case, they might just take their programs and turn them into pay services. The implications of that would be devastating for local TV stations whose value is woven deeply into their network affiliation. The New York Times‘ David Carr offered this analysis:

    The vast majority of people already get their television, including the broadcast networks, through their cable or satellite service. If Aereo wins, networks could let the antennas go dark and tuck themselves inside the cable and satellite universe, where, like AMC or ESPN, they would then be paid programming fees.

    That would be bloody. There are over 200 local broadcast affiliates, all of which depend on networks for a share of revenue and much of their programming. Local news, which is part of their mandate as public broadcasters, might wither, and as existing contracts expired, there would be a brawl for lucrative local advertising. Companies that own large groups of local stations like the Tribune Company and the Sinclair Broadcast Group would suddenly find themselves in possession of a much diminished collection of assets.

If broadcasters lose, they will probably turn to Congress to change the law. The National Journal said:

    If the Supreme Court concludes that Aereo isn’t violating the law, the first thing the broadcasters will probably try to do is get Congress to change the law. They argue that Aereo is trying to exploit a loophole in copyright law, and if the Court doesn’t shut the company down, then Congress should just close the loophole. Broadcasters continue to have impressive clout on Capitol Hill and are used to getting what they want.

http://www.poynter.org/latest-news/top-stories/248743/aereo-supreme-court-case-whats-at-stake-local-news-included/

[area51drone]

If they (NBC, ABC, CBS, FOXl) really did pull their programming from the OTA stations, they will be replaced by other companies that are hungry for the wide audience, and they'll the new big broadcasters and the old ones will turn the way of A&E, etc, and see their numbers fall significantly.

[ItsOver]

If they (NBC, ABC, CBS, FOXl) really did pull their programming from the OTA stations, they will be replaced by other companies that are hungry for the wide audience, and they'll the new big broadcasters and the old ones will turn the way of A&E, etc, and see their numbers fall significantly.

I'm just using OTA now and rarely watch the major outfits, such as ABC, etc.  I'm watching the local stations which air things like Me TV, GET TV, THIS, etc., mainly the outfits which are broadcasting older shows and movies.  The major networks could go blow-up and disappear for all I care.  Even the local affiliates for the majors seem to have turned into versions of a never-ending "Entertainment Tonight" or worse,  even the local news.  They make the National Enquirer look like The Wall Street Journal.

[Juan]

Another instance of the NYT not knowing what it's talking about.  200 affiliates?  There are 210 individual Nielsen DMAs - designated market areas.  Almost all of these would have several network affiliates - my present one has CBS, NBC, ABC, Fox and CW, so that's five affiliates here alone.  I'd estimate it's more like 600 affiliates.

Lucrative local advertising would wither - people don't watch TV to watch ads, they watch programs.  When people leave, advertisers follow.

Networks exist to distribute programming.  Except for news and chat shows, they don't produce their own programming, though some own production companies as separate entities.  Without distribution, there would be no reason for networks to exist.  A production company could put up a server farm and be it's own on-demand distributor.

The networks are bluffing - just as Disney did when it tried to get VHS machines banned.

[Little Hater]

I'm just using OTA now and rarely watch the major outfits, such as ABC, etc.  I'm watching the local stations which air things like Me TV, GET TV, THIS, etc., mainly the outfits which are broadcasting older shows and movies.  The major networks could go blow-up and disappear for all I care.  Even the local affiliates for the majors seem to have turned into versions of a never-ending "Entertainment Tonight" or worse,  even the local news.  They make the National Enquirer look like The Wall Street Journal.

I just have OTA service too, and watch a lot of MeTV and Antenna TV, but both are subchannels of the local affiliates. If the affiliates have to shut down, so will the subchannels.

[area51drone]

The only reason I even watch TV anymore is for the local news.  That's it.  The only reason I want Aereo is because I can't get OTA where I live, and even the most basic cable is 3x as much $$

[Mind Flayer Monk]

If they (NBC, ABC, CBS, FOXl) really did pull their programming from the OTA stations, they will be replaced by other companies that are hungry for the wide audience, and they'll the new big broadcasters and the old ones will turn the way of A&E, etc, and see their numbers fall significantly.

Yep. Just the OTA bandwidth would be worth $$$$, people could repurpose it for other tasks. I imagine there would be a pretty long line of people eager to get at that bandwidth if you look at the prices and competitiveness of bandwidth auctions over the past 15 years.

[ItsOver]

I just have OTA service too, and watch a lot of MeTV and Antenna TV, but both are subchannels of the local affiliates. If the affiliates have to shut down, so will the subchannels.

I appear to be fortunate in my area.  For the large part, the locals I watch don't seem to have any connection to the big affiliates, other than they carry the decent old programming the big guys used to show.  Me-TV in my area is broadcast by a local independent.

[area51drone]

FUUUUUUUAAAAAACKKKK

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/u-s-supreme-court-pulls-plug-aereos-streaming-tv-service-n140486

[albrecht]

FUUUUUUUAAAAAACKKKK

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/u-s-supreme-court-pulls-plug-aereos-streaming-tv-service-n140486

Yeah. Saw that. Oh well back to the TPB etc. If the cable and media companies were smart they could try embracing new technology and try to figure a way to evolve their business model and profit from it. Instead they just try to monopolize the industry and sic their lawyers on any start-up or innovation. Oh well, it just forces their customers into the "black market" of torrents, tor sites, dark web, etc.

[Mind Flayer Monk]

Aereo lost today. Read an article from the NY Times with this quote:

"The 6 to 3 decision handed a major victory to the broadcast networks, which argued that Aereo’s business model was no more than a high-tech approach for stealing their content."
....
Though Aereo itself was a small service with fewer than 500,000 subscribers, the broadcast networks worried that cable and satellite companies would adopt similar technology in an effort to avoid paying retransmission fees, which according to SNL Kagan, a media research firm, total more than $4.3 billion annually."

The 3 dissenters were Thomas, Scalia, and Alito.

[pate]

I don't recall the brand name of the antenna, (could find it out easy enough if needed) but I found that Home Depot had some decent antennas.  This was a few years ago, but who ever it was had 30, 60, & 90mile antennas...  My brother and friend were both having DTV signal problems and apparently I was their 'tv guy'.  I don't think either of them ever got the stupid things... I think both of them were within 30 miles or less of the towers they were wanting to receive from.

Apparently, as with satellite dishes, in antennas size does matter.  The bigger your array (or dish diameter) the better signal you get.  It has something to do with science I think.  The one I figured would work for them both was a 60mile rated one, I don't think it had an amp because the array was large enough that it would pick up a damn good signal (+30 or so dBmA or somesuch).  Problem with antenna arrays however is if you are trying to pick up multiple towers in multiple directions, you have to point the thing at the one you really like, or get the worst signal from and hope the others work too.

I think you can set up an array of arrays to deal with the multiple tower issue, but then you get into bandwidth filters, as the one pointing at tower X is probably also receiving signal from Y&Z as well and you'd want to get a pass-filter for the tower X's frequency and do the same for your antenna(s) that point/pick-up Y&Z...

A bandwith filter is the little co-axial doo-hicky the cable company put on your line at the telephone pole that lets only the internet frequencies pass through to your house (I think it's something like 10-76Mhz or something like that), but if you go to a good electronics parts supply place (not RadioShack) you can find the one that passes only the frequency range of say your local ABC station (which might be  107-112Mhz or something) usually these doo-hicky's kill ~5dBmA of signal though, and you can hook them up in series if required to achieve a desired pass-range.

They look something like this:
http://www.amazon.com/Filter-MoCA-Cable-Coaxial-Networking/dp/B00DC8IEE6/ref=sr_1_sc_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1403751783&sr=1-1-spell&keywords=bandwith+filter+coaxial

I hope you got your TV signal worked out and I just wasted however many minutes typing this...  AND I am having some PTSD (PSTD?) flashbacks of all the research I did on this a few years ago, which no-one used!  Bah!

[area51drone]

Well I'm in the process of building a new house, which although it's going to take me a couple of years to finish completely, I'm going to go full antenna once I move.     I'll be somewhat closer to the broadcasting antennas at that point, and since I'll be living there for many years to come, I don't want to waste putting one up here where I am now.   But thanks for the info.