“What the hell is a bitcoin?”

[Dr. MD MD]

It’s a pyramid. Nothing more.

When the entire system is rigged and controlled by criminals  it is too.

[Jackstar]

the entire system is rigged

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-02-11/economist-it-appears-market-conspiracy-theorists-were-right

The paper examines conduct at 497 financial institutions between 2005 and 2011, paying particular attention to individuals who had previously worked in the federal government, in institutions including the Federal Reserve. In the two years prior to the TARP, these people’s trading gave no evidence of unusual insight. But in the nine months after the TARP was announced, they achieved particularly good results. The paper concludes that “politically connected insiders had a significant information advantage during the crisis and traded to exploit this advantage.”

Who could have ever guessed???

[albrecht]

https://www.wsj.com/articles/south-korean-cryptocurrency-regulator-found-dead-at-home-1519093020
"A South Korean official who guided Seoul’s regulatory clampdown on cryptocurrencies was found dead on Sunday, according to a government spokesman."

[pate]

Tarrifs of crypt-oh?

[Kolchak]

What does one own when they invest in bitcoin? Nothing. It’s a pyramid. Nothing more. And worse, it’s competing with the federal reserve. So it’s an inevitable loser.

Currency is simply a medium of exchange. You can certainly set up a pyramid scheme with cryptocurrency (just like you can with fiat), but that doesn't make the currency itself a pyramid scheme.

Kind of like how social security is a ponzi scheme, but the fiat dollar is not.

[albrecht]

Currency is simply a medium of exchange. You can certainly set up a pyramid scheme with cryptocurrency (just like you can with fiat), but that doesn't make the currency itself a pyramid scheme.

Kind of like how social security is a ponzi scheme, but the fiat dollar is not.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-04-19/what-bitcoin-is-really-worth-may-no-longer-be-such-a-mystery

[Kolchak]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-04-19/what-bitcoin-is-really-worth-may-no-longer-be-such-a-mystery

"True worth" is illusory. A bitcoin is worth whatever the market is willing to pay for it. Right now, that's roughly $8,792.

[albrecht]

"True worth" is illusory. A bitcoin is worth whatever the market is willing to pay for it. Right now, that's roughly $8,792.

Sure, I think the article made that point.
I doubt this whole new computing and stuff will change it much. At least as long as humans are involved. It will never change because Economics, like psychology etc, can't really be a predictable science, though some models (a RCH reference!) try not to do so, but people don't operate logically, information is not universally shared, and then there are outside, random interventions. One can make models with set conditions and predict them on paper, but in real life there are too many variables? Known and unknown (and the infamous known unknowns and unknowns unknowns.  Which the media made fun of but really was a profound thought.) Maybe on some level or for a set time, sometimes? But it makes jobs for Economists. ha.

[dionbrown91502]

Thanks for the insight! Thought I was the only one wondering the same.

[Kolchak]

I suspect that within a year, maybe two, we will be talking about the next online currency. I don't see a future in bitcoin but then again maybe I have just made the equivalent of a vote against facebook. Time will tell I guess.

This post has aged poorly.

[zeebo]

This post has aged poorly.

I was curious about Bitcoin but didn't really see it as a viable asset (for one thing back then I couldn't friggin figure out how to buy one.)  I also thought Facebook sucked and had no interest in their IPO.  I adopted Google early and liked it but never thought they'd make any real money out of it.  I absolutely did love Amazon but thought ten years ago that I'd already missed the boat (turns out it multiplied nearly 20 times since then.)  Yeah I guess you can see why I'm not an investment advisor.

[Gd5150]

How do you make bitcoin a worthwhile “investment”?

[Metron2267]

How do you make bitcoin a worthwhile “investment”?

Solid Gold!

[Gd5150]

Yes! That too. 

[WOTR]

I suppose that this is the correct place to discuss the imminent change of ethereum form POW to POS?

I never liked Ether. The utility is nice, the fact that it has been widely adopted for defi and smart contracts has been interesting. However, when you have a group who gets to make changes on a whim to suit them (and turn it into POS that benefits only those who are already rich or institutions) it goes against the founding values of crypto. When they decided to start bending the knee to the US government I knew it was over.

Yes- I mined it right up to today. The profit was pretty good- and I have exchanged quite a lot of it for other miners and other coins and will still hold some ether "just because."

Time to change the mining rigs to raven for now?*

*I'm guessing this may not be the forum to ask who else is going to hold ether and who is going to divest or what coins people are changing over to? At first glance, it would seem that raven should pay out roughly the same as ether has- and it looks like an interesting project...   

[WOTR]

I will probably find another place to post this... Bankman-Freid will "commit Epstein" before this is all over.

I'm also going to say that we are going to see ethereum is going to tip their hand and remind everybody why they completely suck sometime later this week. There is an account "FTX accounts drainer" that holds around $250 million of funds stolen from FTX. Now that it is POS and not POW, they only need 50% of the validators to go along with OFAC regulations (and 70% have signed up.)

Ether is worthless as a true crypto in terms of being "trustless, decentralized, or outside the reach of government." And I hope they prove it to us. I used bitcoin as an example during the trucker convoy as to why it is useful (when they seized bank accounts and would not allow gofundme money- bitcoin fixes that. Ether does not as they will do what the government tells them...)

*I'm thrilled that FTX imploded. This is why bitcoin was built. Hopefully a few people learned something- even if it was an expensive lesson.

**Oh, right. And I still like BTC even though it will likely suffer greatly from this implosion of FTX. I really don't care if it craters to $5000. It is still a brilliant idea.

[Silphion]

I will probably find another place to post this... Bankman-Freid will "commit Epstein" before this is all over.

I'm also going to say that we are going to see ethereum is going to tip their hand and remind everybody why they completely suck sometime later this week. There is an account "FTX accounts drainer" that holds around $250 million of funds stolen from FTX. Now that it is POS and not POW, they only need 50% of the validators to go along with OFAC regulations (and 70% have signed up.)

Ether is worthless as a true crypto in terms of being "trustless, decentralized, or outside the reach of government." And I hope they prove it to us. I used bitcoin as an example during the trucker convoy as to why it is useful (when they seized bank accounts and would not allow gofundme money- bitcoin fixes that. Ether does not as they will do what the government tells them...)

*I'm thrilled that FTX imploded. This is why bitcoin was built. Hopefully a few people learned something- even if it was an expensive lesson.

**Oh, right. And I still like BTC even though it will likely suffer greatly from this implosion of FTX. I really don't care if it craters to $5000. It is still a brilliant idea.

And TETHER is a bigger scam than FTX, the only difference being everyone already knows it.

[WOTR]

And TETHER is a bigger scam than FTX, the only difference being everyone already knows it.

Yes. And greyscale btc trust who refuses to release public addresses "for security reasons." (Like a bank run on their product, perhaps?)

If it's not decentralized, open source, and community owned, then it's not worth $.02

Anybody find it interesting that his mother founded "mind the gap"? I was wondering how long it would be- but we now know that she and her husband "bought" 110 million dollar estate in the Bahamas with FTX. One assumes that FTX paid for it and their names just happened to land on the title because suddenly the claim to be "trying to return it to FTX." Scamming bunch of holier than thou political elites.

*I wish you were not correct about teather. There are times that I would like to sit on the sidelines (like the last few weeks) and watch it implode and then buy back in later. But I know that one day I would wake up to my account being worthless. So instead I just ride it out (No way I'm converting to fiat and then buying back in. Way too easy to track.)

[albrecht]

Yes. And greyscale btc trust who refuses to release public addresses "for security reasons." (Like a bank run on their product, perhaps?)

If it's not decentralized, open source, and community owned, then it's not worth $.02

Anybody find it interesting that his mother founded "mind the gap"? I was wondering how long it would be- but we now know that she and her husband "bought" 110 million dollar estate in the Bahamas with FTX. One assumes that FTX paid for it and their names just happened to land on the title because suddenly the claim to be "trying to return it to FTX." Scamming bunch of holier than thou political elites.

*I wish you were not correct about teather. There are times that I would like to sit on the sidelines (like the last few weeks) and watch it implode and then buy back in later. But I know that one day I would wake up to my account being worthless. So instead I just ride it out (No way I'm converting to fiat and then buying back in. Way too easy to track.)

I guess the whole deal is a combination of Ponzi schemes, government agency tracking, general grift, political donations, pump and dump, and money laundering.

[Juan]

The world is run by greed.

[Dr. MD MD]

The world is run by greed.

And kiddie diddlers, apparently.

[albrecht]

The world is run by greed.
[/quout]
The stuff, even sanitised, by the Economist, etc is amazing. Such a scam. The, or one, is that the details are lost in comeplexity, news cycles, and because nobody 'wants' to know. Gets lost, like others yuuge finanicial scams, bailouts, 'easeing, etc. Elections over, so go away.

[pate]

[WOTR]

I guess the whole deal is a combination of Ponzi schemes, government agency tracking, general grift, political donations, pump and dump, and money laundering.

I'm sorry... As opposed to central banks and fiat currency which is based on... What? Sound monetary principals?

I have been giving this a little thought. And no. Bitcoin (and some other crypto) has no counterparty risk. It is probably worth reading the original white paper, if you have not. It allows you to bypass the government, banks, and cannot be cancelled or changed. It allows a person in Africa who is "unbanked" to take part in the economy and even buy from somebody without a bank account, USD, KYC laws or currency swaps.

If you have been paying attention, paypal will now fine you if you put out "disinformation." The Canadian government shut down bank accounts for making donations to an unpopular cause.

Add to that the manipulations of central banks for interest rates. Look at wallstreetbets where they screwed over the little guy while Ken Griffith of citidel backstopped his friends. Look at where Robinhood admits that they sell the orders to Citadel to allow them to front run trades. Market manipulation by the banks for decades (interest rate manipulation would be one small example where trillions were pulled out and they were fined a few hundred million.) Banks knowingly laundering money for terrorists and criminals and paying a small fine.

You seem like you might like a free market system. And yet Leman brothers makes FTX look like a joke. But government got out and bailed out the billionaires and banks, screwed over home owners and kept the economy from being hurt like the FTX failure has done to crypto in general. The fallout from the FTX failure is a good thing. It is what a real free market system looks like when the governments can't print trillions to screw around with the system.

Yes- it is a little bit of the "wild west." And if you chose to trust an individual (or exchange) and if you invest in a "coin" like most of are- where a person or group can manipulate them by inflation or deflation or change the algorythem, then you take your chances. Greed often leads to loss.

Bitcoin is the cure to digital ID's, digital central bank currencies, and the WEF. Unlike something like Ethereum where the government can already demand that accounts be frozen- bitcoin (or even better- Monero) is outside of that system.

I'm sorry- but the stock market, commodity markets, futures markets, currency exchange markets, banks, billionaires, central banks and governments are far less trustworthy than the bitcoin that I hold in a cold storage wallet. Yes- it fluctuates compared to fiat. But that is not how it should be valued...

So, hold your fiat in a bank account while deriding crypto if you want. Hope that your bank will not seize it. Hope that you don't upset the wrong person where they freeze your funds, close your account for the wrong political opinion (I assume that you have seen the stories of some banks and insurance companies cancelling accounts of people for "wrong think?") Hope that your bank does not print too much and only inflates away 3 - 5% of the savings value each year and they don't make a "mistake" and claim that inflation is transitory like they have for the last few years while they printed trillions to give to the oligarchs who dutifully return a percentage as campaign "donations."

When I look at which system is more broken, more corrupt, and more at risk it is our fiat system.

[albrecht]

I'm sorry... As opposed to central banks and fiat currency which is based on... What? Sound monetary principals?

I have been giving this a little thought. And no. Bitcoin (and some other crypto) has no counterparty risk. It is probably worth reading the original white paper, if you have not. It allows you to bypass the government, banks, and cannot be cancelled or changed. It allows a person in Africa who is "unbanked" to take part in the economy and even buy from somebody without a bank account, USD, KYC laws or currency swaps.

If you have been paying attention, paypal will now fine you if you put out "disinformation." The Canadian government shut down bank accounts for making donations to an unpopular cause.

Add to that the manipulations of central banks for interest rates. Look at wallstreetbets where they screwed over the little guy while Ken Griffith of citidel backstopped his friends. Look at where Robinhood admits that they sell the orders to Citadel to allow them to front run trades. Market manipulation by the banks for decades (interest rate manipulation would be one small example where trillions were pulled out and they were fined a few hundred million.) Banks knowingly laundering money for terrorists and criminals and paying a small fine.

You seem like you might like a free market system. And yet Leman brothers makes FTX look like a joke. But government got out and bailed out the billionaires and banks, screwed over home owners and kept the economy from being hurt like the FTX failure has done to crypto in general. The fallout from the FTX failure is a good thing. It is what a real free market system looks like when the governments can't print trillions to screw around with the system.

Yes- it is a little bit of the "wild west." And if you chose to trust an individual (or exchange) and if you invest in a "coin" like most of are- where a person or group can manipulate them by inflation or deflation or change the algorythem, then you take your chances. Greed often leads to loss.

Bitcoin is the cure to digital ID's, digital central bank currencies, and the WEF. Unlike something like Ethereum where the government can already demand that accounts be frozen- bitcoin (or even better- Monero) is outside of that system.

I'm sorry- but the stock market, commodity markets, futures markets, currency exchange markets, banks, billionaires, central banks and governments are far less trustworthy than the bitcoin that I hold in a cold storage wallet. Yes- it fluctuates compared to fiat. But that is not how it should be valued...

So, hold your fiat in a bank account while deriding crypto if you want. Hope that your bank will not seize it. Hope that you don't upset the wrong person where they freeze your funds, close your account for the wrong political opinion (I assume that you have seen the stories of some banks and insurance companies cancelling accounts of people for "wrong think?") Hope that your bank does not print too much and only inflates away 3 - 5% of the savings value each year and they don't make a "mistake" and claim that inflation is transitory like they have for the last few years while they printed trillions to give to the oligarchs who dutifully return a percentage as campaign "donations."

When I look at which system is more broken, more corrupt, and more at risk it is our fiat system.

All great points and central banking, traditional banking, and commodity markets. And obviously I don't understand the underlying technology. It would seem to be that if 'every transaction' is 'kept' on the blockchain than the crypto currencies would even have more, at least similar, tracking to transactions over the traditional banking system and likewise could be tracked, blocked, or hacked, or lost due to some server shutdown or the companies 'holding' your coin. And not 'anonymous.' Maybe if there was some physical coin that was anonymous, so more like cash, that can't be tracked (as easily at least) once it is a physical form and has exchanged hands several times. I don't know.

[Juan]

Gold doubloons

[albrecht]

Gold doubloons

Silver Dollars and Krugerrands, probably best bet. Diamomds also very good. Easily hidden and transported and fungible. Ultimately lead, n copper n some other minerals might be best investment? haha.

[Dr. MD MD]

Silver Dollars and Krugerrands, probably best bet. Diamomds also very good. Easily hidden and transported and fungible. Ultimately lead, n copper n some other minerals might be best investment? haha.

Mrs. Robinson, you're trying to seduce me.

[Laser]

Another reason why we miss RT.

[Dr. MD MD]

Another reason why we miss RT.

He convinced me. I think I'm going to try to get a foot in that water next year.