I Hate Liberals and Democrat Voters

[Quick Karl]

Try as he might, he just can't fool you, since  only right-wing regimes ever do any spying.   One more puzzle piece proving Obama' s right-wingness.  How did I miss that.

Sometimes, some folks, cannot see even a glaring character flaw in their chosen idol!

No offense Pud, just trying to make a point. Political philosophies notwithstanding, this guy's regime has violated more things that liberals have been screaming about since the days of Richard Nixon, than any President we've ever had. He makes Dick Cheney look mild...

[NowhereInTime]

Try as he might, he just can't fool you, since  only right-wing regimes ever do any spying.   One more puzzle piece proving Obama' s right-wingness.  How did I miss that.

sucks when someone rewrites the rules midstream,  doesn't it?

[Yorkshire pud]

Sometimes, some folks, cannot see even a glaring character flaw in their chosen idol!

No offense Pud, just trying to make a point. Political philosophies notwithstanding, this guy's regime has violated more things that liberals have been screaming about since the days of Richard Nixon, than any President we've ever had. He makes Dick Cheney look mild...

Idol? Oh dear..you're very mistaken. I view the vast majority of all shades of the politico as lower than a snakes belly. Obama is no different; his successor will be just the same. Sure the words will get switched around to apease those who want to hear what they want to hear, but the result is the same. Anyone who really belives otherwise is either young idealist and impressionable; or old delusional and idealist.

But don't get carried away and think I believe your president is worthy of idolisation; far from it. But neither is he a communist. As for the spying debacle; it's been going on for decades, but that doesn't excuse Obama (and congress and the senate) not addressing the pervading intrusion into people's lives. Sadly I doubt very much things will get better in my lifetime.

[Quick Karl]

Idol? Oh dear..you're very mistaken. I view the vast majority of all shades of the politico as lower than a snakes belly. Obama is no different; his successor will be just the same. Sure the words will get switched around to apease those who want to hear what they want to hear, but the result is the same. Anyone who really belives otherwise is either young idealist and impressionable; or old delusional and idealist.

But don't get carried away and think I believe your president is worthy of idolisation; far from it. But neither is he a communist. As for the spying debacle; it's been going on for decades, but that doesn't excuse Obama (and congress and the senate) not addressing the pervading intrusion into people's lives. Sadly I doubt very much things will get better in my lifetime.

Are leaders a reflection of The People, or are The People a reflection of their leaders?

[Yorkshire pud]

Are leaders a reflection of The People, or are The People a reflection of their leaders?

As the great Paul Weller sang; "The public get what the public want and the public want what the public get." I'm sure once upon a time when the land was new and genuinely philanthropic and kindly souls decided to lead their flocks of a few thousand to great heights, the idea was a great one. In  reality of course modern politics grew out of initially the British parliament, in the palace of Westminster. Where not as we might whimsically believe, members chosen from the toil of hard work and the brethren they represented, but all male incredibly rich landowners and influential (and in cases corrupt) international traders who wanted to keep the status quo. It was really only that poor people began to have a voice in the 30's with the formation of trade unions that any semblance to 'opposition' came about.  Same went to law; Landed, all male juries, and the possibility of a poor person or woman being found not guilty was remote.

Today? Well today the politicians (backed with millions and millions from those who will want a return) are simply mouth pieces for the corporations and individuals who put them there; sure there are elections, but they're only the result of whose ads are more effective. All politicians lie, all of them. Look at the make up for a start. How many are lawyers? How many from old money? How many are from real jobs and vocations that make things happen? Engineers? Scientists? Doctors? Artists? Until politicians represent the people that put them there, we will never have a real choice.

[Quick Karl]

As the great Paul Weller sang; "The public get what the public want and the public want what the public get." I'm sure once upon a time when the land was new and genuinely philanthropic and kindly souls decided to lead their flocks of a few thousand to great heights, the idea was a great one. In  reality of course modern politics grew out of initially the British parliament, in the palace of Westminster. Where not as we might whimsically believe, members chosen from the toil of hard work and the brethren they represented, but all male incredibly rich landowners and influential (and in cases corrupt) international traders who wanted to keep the status quo. It was really only that poor people began to have a voice in the 30's with the formation of trade unions that any semblance to 'opposition' came about.  Same went to law; Landed, all male juries, and the possibility of a poor person or woman being found not guilty was remote.

Today? Well today the politicians (backed with millions and millions from those who will want a return) are simply mouth pieces for the corporations and individuals who put them there; sure there are elections, but they're only the result of whose ads are more effective. All politicians lie, all of them. Look at the make up for a start. How many are lawyers? How many from old money? How many are from real jobs and vocations that make things happen? Engineers? Scientists? Doctors? Artists? Until politicians represent the people that put them there, we will never have a real choice.

The nature of politics is such that only the corrupt succeed...

I've always wondered if, while we were in Elementary School, we hung and disemboweled all the kids that ran for "Class President", would the world eventually turn out to be a better place?

If people want the utopias that some folks seem to believe is possible, or the more virtuous society that others believe we should strive for, one must be as quick to condemn their own idol, as they are their opponent's - or they will lack legitimacy.

Until that happens people will just hurl vitriol when their arguments are defeated, and turn into stalkers.

[PB the Deplorable]

Idol? Oh dear..you're very mistaken. I view the vast majority of all shades of the politico as lower than a snakes belly. Obama is no different; his successor will be just the same. Sure the words will get switched around to apease those who want to hear what they want to hear, but the result is the same. Anyone who really belives otherwise is either young idealist and impressionable; or old delusional and idealist...

This is the reason we have the Bill of Rights section of the Constitution (first 10 Amendments).  Even though it has been eroded and ignored to a certain extent, it still limits what these shitheels can do and their ability to intrude on our lives.


They are the same on a lot of things but from time to time the differences are enormous.   Nearly all D's voted for ObamaCare and all R's opposed it.  The recent attempt to either end ObamaCare or extend it out another year was opposed by all D's and supported by the R's.  The worst of judges, appointments, and laws are often stopped by one party fully on one side and the other party fully on the other side.  Sometimes it's the minority party in the Senate scheduling a filibuster.  That's when who won the election and how many seats they hold is most important.

I doubt people would think an Obama Administration would be 'the same' as a Rick Santorum Administration or a Rand Paul one for example.

The 'they're all the same' argument is usually trotted out when someone like Obama or the corrupt Clintons are in office - it's a criticism of those criticizing Democrat officeholders.  I never once heard 'they're all the same' when Reagan or George W Bush was in office.  Not once.

... As for the spying debacle; it's been going on for decades, but that doesn't excuse Obama (and congress and the senate) not addressing the pervading intrusion into people's lives. Sadly I doubt very much things will get better in my lifetime.

by the spying debacle, do you mean all of it - photographing both sides of all our mail, recording and storing all our phone calls and emails, recording and storing our internet activity, and doing the same in some to our European allies, as well as spying on the media and foreign leaders?

I'd guess spying on foreign leaders has been ongoing, and they on us.  Spying on the media as probably been done a time or two before, although it's a lot easier to just call them to a White House meeting and ask them whatever it is the Administration wants to know.

As far as the rest - no, it hasn't been going on for decades.  The technology to do so has not been available to do that until fairly recently, and even then digital storage was hugely expensive until very rcently.

[NowhereInTime]

I've always wondered if, while we were in Elementary School, we hung and disemboweled all the kids that ran for "Class President", would the world eventually turn out to be a better place?

Yes.  Another fine example of Qunt Karl's true mind.  "Hung and disemboweled" elementary school kids who run for class president?  Don't try to excuse or hide this as some jerk-off whimsy or theoretical game - this is the truth about Qunt Karl.  He's a fascist, misogynist, racsist monster. He can bloviate with the best of them on here but he slips like this all too often.

[NowhereInTime]

As far as the rest - no, it hasn't been going on for decades.  The technology to do so has not been available to do that until fairly recently, and even then digital storage was hugely expensive until very rcently.

He's right.  Back in Paper Boy's day the Republican President would pay people to commit felonies and authorize break-ins to his political opponents' headquarters and offices.  The Dick Cheney way of electronic spying is so much more efficient.

[Yorkshire pud]

This is the reason we have the Bill of Rights section of the Constitution (first 10 Amendments).  Even though it has been eroded and ignored to a certain extent, it still limits what these shitheels can do and their ability to intrude on our lives.


They are the same on a lot of things but from time to time the differences are enormous.   Nearly all D's voted for ObamaCare and all R's opposed it.  The recent attempt to either end ObamaCare or extend it out another year was opposed by all D's and supported by the R's.  The worst of judges, appointments, and laws are often stopped by one party fully on one side and the other party fully on the other side.  Sometimes it's the minority party in the Senate scheduling a filibuster.  That's when who won the election and how many seats they hold is most important.

I doubt people would think an Obama Administration would be 'the same' as a Rick Santorum Administration or a Rand Paul one for example.

The 'they're all the same' argument is usually trotted out when someone like Obama or the corrupt Clintons are in office - it's a criticism of those criticizing Democrat officeholders.  I never once heard 'they're all the same' when Reagan or George W Bush was in office.  Not once.

I don't know what was debated/ voted etc in DC when Bush jnr took you to war in Iraq and Afghanistan, but over here both sides of the house were lied to by Blair to get his vote for the Uk to go to war with the US..He lied, and he knows he lied, yet that didn't excuse the members who voted yes for their criminal dereliction of duty. My anger at that is still as much as it was back in 2003. So many soldiers have died needlessly. Hundreds of thousends of innocent civilians have died needlessly, and to what end? My feelings about most politicians being the same was confirmed more, not that I needed it confirming.

by the spying debacle, do you mean all of it - photographing both sides of all our mail, recording and storing all our phone calls and emails, recording and storing our internet activity, and doing the same in some to our European allies, as well as spying on the media and foreign leaders?

Of course; It's reprehensible, disgusting and the arrogance of the faceless bastards who make these decisions is depressing on a level that is beyond words. But again, I can only see it getting worse, not better.

I'd guess spying on foreign leaders has been ongoing, and they on us.  Spying on the media as probably been done a time or two before, although it's a lot easier to just call them to a White House meeting and ask them whatever it is the Administration wants to know.

As far as the rest - no, it hasn't been going on for decades.  The technology to do so has not been available to do that until fairly recently, and even then digital storage was hugely expensive until very recently.

Hugely expensive; sure, but who is paying for it? Them? No-one can possibly guess the amount of billions that have been siphoned into such as the NSA over the years, and other agencies before them. You seen "Enemy of the State"? What was it Gene Hackmans character said about a twenty acre underground complex in the mid 80's? I know it's a film, but I'll put money on it being based on a lot of plausible truth.

[Quick Karl]

So many soldiers have died needlessly. Hundreds of thousends of innocent civilians have died needlessly, and to what end?

From the Movie, Platoon.

King: ...Everybody know the poor are always being fucked over by the rich. Always have, always will.

[MV/Liberace!]

You Liberal POS garbage. Thank you for ruining the best health care system in the world.

it's only the best healthcare system in the world if you can afford access to it.  having said that, obama care is a fucking disaster.  single payer is the solution.

and so ends my bellgab political contribution for 2013.

[Quick Karl]

it's only the best healthcare system in the world if you can afford access to it.  having said that, obama care is a fucking disaster.  single payer is the solution.

and so ends my bellgab political contribution for 2013.

Now, if only we could find some genuinely honest people to administer and manage the system, and had political quotas for the personnel in the entire chain (50% Rep and 50% Dem), and also hired a bloodthirsty killer to unleash upon any fraud anywhere in the system, then we'd be good!

Truth is, no matter the system, it is just a charade to fuck middle class working Americans that disagree with progressives (regardless of the political clown suit they are wearing), and buy votes with the money stolen from them, period.

[NowhereInTime]

it's only the best healthcare system in the world if you can afford access to it.  having said that, obama care is a fucking disaster.  single payer is the solution.

and so ends my bellgab political contribution for 2013.

more valuable in one post than 99% of the stuff on here.

[aldousburbank]

more valuable in one post than 99% of the stuff on here.

Welcome to the forum MV. Post often.

[Sardondi]

it's only the best healthcare system in the world if you can afford access to it.  having said that, obama care is a fucking disaster.  single payer is the solution.

Singlepayer - from the people who run the IRS, the NSA and the Post Office. So that everybody has crappy healthcare.

Except they won't, will they? Just you and me. There will always be that double-secret "platinum service" which Congress reserves for itself, the lobbyists, top contributors, cronies and the nomenklatura. The US healthcare system has been utterly destroyed because Americans have become too cowardly to object in the face of MauMauing by the ideologues who wish to trample any dissent. Too many people were afraid of being called "racist" to object to an obvious fairytale.

[aldousburbank]

Singlepayer - from the people who run the IRS, the NSA and the Post Office. So that everybody has crappy healthcare.

Let Amazon do it then. To your door in two days cheap.

[ItsOver]

Welcome to the forum MV. Post often.

As long as you're not gay. 

[b_dubb]

Welcome to the forum MV. Post often.

L O L

[Quick Karl]

Let Amazon do it then. To your door in two days cheap.

I wonder if it wouldn't be better to actually let Amazon run it?

[Yorkshire pud]

I wonder if it wouldn't be better to actually let Amazon run it?

..and let them enjoy even more tax avoidance tham they do now?

[Quick Karl]

..and let them enjoy even more tax avoidance tham they do now?

If we received better service, faster, and for less money - FUCK YES.

[PB the Deplorable]

I wonder if it wouldn't be better to actually let Amazon run it?

Even tiny businesses now have on-line presences and sell their products over the internet. Their software works, and none of them paid $700-800 million dollars for it.  More like  few hundred or a few thousand  dollars.  It's simple enough people can do it themselves.

Then there are the large companies that have managed to develop strong internet presences.  All the different products Stores have - constantly changing products and prices, posting product descriptions and photos, collecting credit card info, shipping the product.  Banks with on-line payments, statements, letting a person shift money around, everything else they do.  Brokers automatically taking info on buying and selling securities, executing orders instantly and flawlessly.  They all generate statements, year end documents required by the IRS, all sorts of information  Companies like Amazon ad EBay - their software works, and I doubt any of them spent anywhere near $700 million just to set their systems up initially and get them working.  Not even close.

I don't know what is so hard to understand about not handing responsibility for our health care over to some bureaucracy.  What is more important to each of us than our health?  Why hand over responsibility and ultimate decision making over our health care to these Marxists just because they demand it and get hysterical when they don't get their way?  Screw them.  The bureaucracy proves their incompetence every day, and now we want them to handle this instead of making our own decisions?   

Why do so many people have such trust and faith in government?  Why do people think that those who know how to get themselves elected or appointed to political jobs are suddenly experts in everything?  Or experts in anything, for that matter?  What is it about 'government' that we so willingly overlook their BS and incompetence and accept what we would never accept if it was a private company or group of companies doing it?

[NowhereInTime]

Even tiny businesses now have on-line presences and sell their products over the internet. Their software works, and none of them paid $700-800 million dollars for it.  More like  few hundred or a few thousand  dollars.  It's simple enough people can do it themselves.

Then there are the large companies that have managed to develop strong internet presences.  All the different products Stores have - constantly changing products and prices, posting product descriptions and photos, collecting credit card info, shipping the product.  Banks with on-line payments, statements, letting a person shift money around, everything else they do.  Brokers automatically taking info on buying and selling securities, executing orders instantly and flawlessly.  They all generate statements, year end documents required by the IRS, all sorts of information  Companies like Amazon ad EBay - their software works, and I doubt any of them spent anywhere near $700 million just to set their systems up initially and get them working.  Not even close.

I don't know what is so hard to understand about not handing responsibility for our health care over to some bureaucracy.  What is more important to each of us than our health?  Why hand over responsibility and ultimate decision making over our health care to these Marxists just because they demand it and get hysterical when they don't get their way?  Screw them.  The bureaucracy proves their incompetence every day, and now we want them to handle this instead of making our own decisions?   

Why do so many people have such trust and faith in government?  Why do people think that those who know how to get themselves elected or appointed to political jobs are suddenly experts in everything?  Or experts in anything, for that matter?  What is it about 'government' that we so willingly overlook their BS and incompetence and accept what we would never accept if it was a private company or group of companies doing it?

Because at the end of the day,  our Government still belongs to us, faults and all, where private companies,  ever serving the profit motive, operate in secret and are never honest about things like price.  You government haters need to get off your backsides and get involved.

[Quick Karl]

Why do so many people have such trust and faith in government?  Why do people think that those who know how to get themselves elected or appointed to political jobs are suddenly experts in everything?

I don't believe that the voters you reference trust government or believe that party apparatchiks are any more competent than they themselves are, beyond the fact that they've gotten themselves hired into a government job. I believe that the vast majority of those voters resent success, and will vote for anyone or anything that promises to stick-it to anyone that they perceive to have more than they do. The paradox is that "the rich" (you know, those people in Congress and the White House, and the corporations that they really work for), exempt themselves from paying for anything.

When a person is inherently corrupt, they project that, telling themselves than anyone that has what they want, could only have gotten it via fraudulent means, and they become the useful idiots of legend.

[PB the Deplorable]

I don't believe that the voters you reference trust government or believe that party apparatchiks are any more competent than they themselves are, beyond the fact that they've gotten themselves hired into a government job. I believe that the vast majority of those voters resent success, and will vote for anyone or anything that promises to stick-it to anyone that they perceive to have more than they do. The paradox is that "the rich" (you know, those people in Congress and the White House, and the corporations that they really work for), exempt themselves from paying for anything.

When a person is inherently corrupt, they project that, telling themselves than anyone that has what they want, could only have gotten it via fraudulent means, and they become the useful idiots of legend.

There aren't really very many people like that, as a percentage.  I think the majority of D voters and ObamaCare supporters truly think they are helping the poor, being fair, improving things, etc.  It's the 'intellectuals' and leaders within the Party and Media that know better and are the shitheels.

[PB the Deplorable]

Because at the end of the day,  our Government still belongs to us, faults and all...

And you think I'm naïve.

... private companies,  ever serving the profit motive, operate in secret and are never honest about things like price...

I'm not sure what 'never honest about... price' means, unless you are talking about hidden fees when booking a hotel room or something.

Anyway, I'm bored, so let's go through this.

Profit motive.  Yes indeed.  Just as you try to get as much as you can for your product (the service they hire you to perform at your job), others try to get as much as they can with whatever product(s) they produce.  Charge too much and customers will go elsewhere.  Manage it poorly, including wastefulness, and a company will go bankrupt.  Profit Motive goes hand-in-hand with Market Discipline.  The government has no need for profits or even income - they get tax dollars - so there is no market discipline, much is wasted, and we have no choice but to deal with them - I don't see how that's an improvement.

Operate in secret.  Probably a good idea - let the competitors figure things out for themselves instead of stealing your ideas and strategies.  Government, supposedly belonging to us, has no competitors and no need to profit, yet they also operate in secrecy anyway.  No improvement there either.


Price, Cost, Value.

Prices are very important in a market economy.  They send signals to suppliers to either produce more (when prices are high) or produce less (when prices are low).  They send signals to consumers to buy more (when prices are low) or buy less (when prices are high.  Goods are allocated to those who have the best use for them - they will pay the most.  High Prices over a certain period induce other competitors into the market.  Low Prices over a certain period drive the most inefficient businesses out of the market.

In a command economy, government decides how much to produce.  They even decide who gets what.  Those with the best uses for the goods are often not the ones that receive them.  This all makes for a big wasteful mess.  There is overproduction of some things and underproduction (and thus shortages) of other things.  There is typically much more shortage than overproduction.

None of this is heaven on earth.  Here and there it needs a little regulation, but the market price system simply works better. 


Cost is what it takes to produce goods and services.  If the Costs are less than the Price received when sold, there is Profit.  When Costs exceed the sales Price, there is a loss.  The Price one can charge is not based on Cost, but on what the Market will pay for the goods or services.  When there is a large difference between Cost and Price, other competitors will enter the market to also profit.  Increased competition lowers Price.


Value is placed on goods and services by the customer.  If Value is higher than Price, that customer will purchase the good or service.  If not, they won't.


By handing over production and allocation of goods and services to government, all that efficiency goes away for a variety of reasons inherent to government authority, monopoly, and lack of market discipline.  One thing certain - taking something out of the private sector in order to 'take the profit out of it' never ends up lowering price.  Government inefficiency and waste is always more then the profit ever was.

Look no further than Obama's promise of healthcare policies being $2500 less per person under ObamaCare.

[PB the Deplorable]

..and let them enjoy even more tax avoidance tham they do now?

Amazon and the rest aren't avoiding taxes, exactly.  They just aren't collecting them from on-line buyers in certain states and remitting it back to those states.  What they are avoiding is a big hassle.

Sales taxes are imposed by the States on the buyer.  Counties and sometimes cities and regional districts (water district, school district, fire district, etc) impose additional sales taxes.  When someone sells something in a state that imposes sales taxes (not all of them do), the state requires the seller to collect the sales tax from the buyer and remit it to the state.  The seller must collect the correct amount and remit it, and do it for no compensation.

A state may not require a person or business residing outside the state and having no presence in the state to do anything.  Just as the UK cannot compel me to do anything, unless I go there.

If Amazon or their partners (who list and sell products on Amazons site) sell something and mail a package into another state, that state can't compel them to collect sales tax.  The buyers still owe the tax, it's just that the states have no way of finding out about the transaction and must collect it from the buyers themselves.


It would be a real chore for on-line sellers to categorize buyers by location, and apply all the applicable state and local sales taxes to their purchase - for California alone the state has it's rate, each county adds it's own rate, and the cities and districts within each county usually add on to that, each with a different rate.  Retail brick and mortar stores have it easier - they just charge what the sales tax is where they are located, it doesn't matter where the customers live.

Imagine a company having to register with each state, learn the rules for each state, figure out the amount of sales tax each customer all over the country should pay on each transaction, collecting it, remitting it, then filling out and filing a quarterly form for some states, a monthly form for other states, and an annual form for each of them at year-end.  And getting nothing for doing all that.  That's a big reason why they don't want to do it, especially small businesses that just don't have the manpower to do it even if they wanted.


Under Article I, Section 8 of the Constitution, "Congress shall have power to... regulate commerce... among the several states...".  Not the President, not the courts, and not the states themselves.

So if we want Amazon and the rest to collect sales taxes for states they have no presence in, Congress must pass legislation requiring it. 

[Mind Flayer Monk]

Amazon and the rest aren't avoiding taxes, exactly.  They just aren't collecting them from on-line buyers in certain states and remitting it back to those states.  What they are avoiding is a big hassle.

This isn't how amazon avoids taxes. Amazon and others avoid taxes by creating a software system (or robotic picking systems, box sealers) and then saying the software system is doing 95% of the work, so 95% of the taxes are attributable to patent or trademark income.

This patent or trademark income is registered in a foreign country (sometimes called a patent box) and then you pay taxes at a reduced rate in the other county and claim all of that is not taxable in the US.

So if you look at an iphone-apple is saying of the $600 price tag, the revenue is actually $400 in patents held in other countries and $100 in the iphone trademark (also held in another country) and $50 in the apple trademark (held in another country) and yeah those last $50, you can tax us on that.

[Sardondi]

I don't understand the supposed complaint of those who think Amazon is doing something improper by "avoiding taxes", as if there is some duty for a business to structure their actions so as to implicate a taxable event. I particularly don't understand that attitude of "O woe is me! Amazon won't let me pay my appropriate taxes!". This smacks of hypocrisy.

Because there is absolutely nothing stopping Amazon users from sending any taxes they believe Amazon is improperly avoiding on their purchases to any governments to which they think they're owed.