The Affordable Care Act - also known as ObamaCare

[Yorkshire pud]

You are missing the point, intentionally, to no surprise.

It isn't me missing the point; it's you who seem to infer things that I haven't implied. I'm keen to know where I said that benefit fraud was acceptable... Or do I infer you think tax fraud isn't a crime? Just because you want certain statistics to not be what they actually are, so you'll be good to go on a sanctimonious rant, sadly doesn't get borne out by the truth.

So your above statement shows you don't have anything. All you have to do is link in the figures that show the benefit/tax fraud statistics aren't as I posted..

[Ben Shockley]

...And this time, when the voices say "Do It!  Do It!", feel free to ...

As I've been begging these assholes to do for a year and a half.

It ALMOST seems like they don't think the situation is as dire-ly life-and-death as they bemoan in every post in here.  ALMOST makes you wonder, then, what they are so worried about.
Don't it?

[Quick Karl]

As I've been begging these assholes to do for a year and a half.

It ALMOST seems like they don't think the situation is as dire-ly life-and-death as they bemoan in every post in here.  ALMOST makes you wonder, then, what they are so worried about.
Don't it?

Lemme guess - your mommy still tells you every day that you are a genius?

[Ben Shockley]

Lemme guess - your mommy still tells you every day that you are a genius?

Lemme guess-- your appellation of "Quick" was given to you by YOUR mommy after your one attempt at sex?

[PB the Deplorable]

... And you did it again, goddammit.  Yes, I slogged through your sophistry and parsing about Robert fucking Byrd, who you well know  recanted his rascist heritage....

Oh, ok, he said he was sorry.  Well I guess that's that then.

[Ben Shockley]

Nowhere Man, this is all they have.  Let them froth about it.

Meanwhile they say nothing about their premavatars like Cheney who claim that they would never change anything from their political histories.   One dead guy who recanted, versus a whole Party moving ahead on the basis that they are totally, literally, and forever Right.

[Sambo]

I don't get how people can get so tit twisted over health car when military and surveillance expenditures are over half a billion each year.

Thanks Pals,

Sincerely,

Canada

[onan]

I don't get how people can get so tit twisted over health car when military and surveillance expenditures are over half a billion each year.

Thanks Pals,

Sincerely,

Canada

Welcome to the U S of A. We used to have some level of compassion for our fellow citizens, well the white ones anyway. But thanks to the ilk of rush, hannity, beck, liddy, and others from the same septic tank it is much easier to think anyone without a million dollar portfolio is not worth helping.

[Yorkshire pud]

I don't get how people can get so tit twisted over health car when military and surveillance expenditures are over half a billion each year.

Thanks Pals,

Sincerely,

Canada

You and me both buddy. I guess because we grew up with it and don't know what it is to be have health care prevented because of ability to pay. Is it taking it for granted? Probably, but I prefer our system to dying-and myself, my ex wife, both my parents, and several friends would have died without our NHS.

[Juan]

Some very large amount (2/3?) of military spending is social spending - salaries, housing, medical care, etc.  It's not all bombs and bullets and depleted uranium with magical properties.

[NowhereInTime]

Some very large amount (2/3?) of military spending is social spending - salaries, housing, medical care, etc.  It's not all bombs and bullets and depleted uranium with magical properties.

USS Gerald R Ford cost $14 billion dollars to R&D and build and $7 million a day to operate.  DoD just bought 63 Mi 17 Russian helicopters for $1.1 billion.  Moszt money spent on procurement and operations.

[PB the Deplorable]

You and me both buddy. I guess because we grew up with it and don't know what it is to be have health care prevented because of ability to pay. Is it taking it for granted? Probably, but I prefer our system to dying-and myself, my ex wife, both my parents, and several friends would have died without our NHS.

So if it wasn't 'free' you wouldn't have had a different system, and everyone over there would be dead?  If NHS had not been instituted, there would be no doctors, no nurses, no hospitals, no medication? 

That's like saying if the local food market wasn't there, you'd have starved to death.  No, actually someone else would have opened up a different food market in your area.


Here we have health care insurance.  85% were covered, and many of the people that weren't covered were young people who were offered it through their jobs and, figuring they were healthy, turned it down because they didn't want to pay their portion of the premiums.  Just like many are doing now, preferring to pay the 'tax' instead of buying the ObamaCare insurance.  Others were illegal aliens - people in a country illegally are not exactly in the 'system'.

And - once again - you are confusing health care insurance with medical care.  People aren't dropping dead because of lack of insurance.

If you had had a different system, like, say, the one we have, you and your wife and your friends would have had insurance, or would have been on a medical program for the poor, and your parents would have either also had insurance or been covered by Medicare, depending on their age.  None of you would have died.  From what I understand about the NHS in general, you would have likely gotten better care more quickly and wouldn't have been in some queue waiting you turn.

[NowhereInTime]

None of you would have died.  From what I understand about the NHS in general, you would have likely gotten better care more quickly and wouldn't have been in some queue waiting you   turn.[/size]

Which, like a good conservative, you leapt before you looked because your assertion is just plain wrong.  I won't even bother because I'm sure YP's about to lay it down on you.

Really, it would be helpful if people on the right would stop assuming they knew everything about everything.  You don't and that's why you make messes like our current healthcare system and our financial system.

[onan]

So if it wasn't 'free' you wouldn't have had a different system, and everyone over there would be dead?  If NHS had not been instituted, there would be no doctors, no nurses, no hospitals, no medication? 

That's like saying if the local food market wasn't there, you'd have starved to death.  No, actually someone else would have opened up a different food market in your area.


Here we have health care insurance.  85% were covered, and many of the people that weren't covered were young people who were offered it through their jobs and, figuring they were healthy, turned it down because they didn't want to pay their portion of the premiums.  Just like many are doing now, preferring to pay the 'tax' instead of buying the ObamaCare insurance.  Others were illegal aliens - people in a country illegally are not exactly in the 'system'.

And - once again - you are confusing health care insurance with medical care.  People aren't dropping dead because of lack of insurance.

If you had had a different system, like, say, the one we have, you and your wife and your friends would have had insurance, or would have been on a medical program for the poor, and your parents would have either also had insurance or been covered by Medicare, depending on their age.  None of you would have died.  From what I understand about the NHS in general, you would have likely gotten better care more quickly and wouldn't have been in some queue waiting you turn.

You demonstrate a poor understanding of health and health care with the statement:

People aren't dropping dead because of lack of insurance.

No one is dropping dead in front of you. But people are dropping dead, just out of sight. Some have insurance, but the costs are beyond their ability to pay. I had a work associate who's father had cancer. His insurance would not cover the treatment that offered the best hope, because it was too expensive and too new. He died less than 4 months later. But others, in that hospital were getting that treatment. They were able to afford the newer treatment. And that kind of hospital "ethics" goes on daily all over this country.

I am so fucking sick of the Neanderthal Ted Cruse types out there that suggest ER's are the place to get treatment.

In 2009 The Journal of American Public Health estimated that 45,000 deaths due to lack of insurance. And the number has increased to 48,000.

Not to mention that more than 60% of personal bankruptcies are a direct result of medical bills, and those people had insurance.

[Designx]

Say what you want about the ACA - but I think now is not the time to be rolling this out. A lot of people are stuggling in this poor economy. Compound this with record student loan debt and graduates unable to get good paying jobs. What is essentially a new tax will pull a greater amount of the population into government dependency - creating a huge debt load as the system will never be balanced and able to pay for itself.
 

[PB the Deplorable]

Welcome to the U S of A. We used to have some level of compassion for our fellow citizens, well the white ones anyway. But thanks to the ilk of rush, hannity, beck, liddy, and others from the same septic tank it is much easier to think anyone without a million dollar portfolio is not worth helping.

The people of this country have more compassion for the poor than any other country.  Or when disaster strikes either here or anywhere in the world, it's the US and non-government organizations that are there first with relief.

And what are you talking about anyway?  Take a look at all the government programs for the poor.  Federal, state, local.  Housing, food, job training, Medicaid, welfare, free legal advice, people volunteering and doing pro bono work - on and on and on.  Program after agency after advocate group as far as the eye can see.  Trillions of dollars have been poured into the 'War on Poverty'.

Somehow that's not enough.  It's never enough.  It will never be enough.  And more every year.  In the last election we learned 47% of households in the US had someone receiving a government check.  We also learned 15% of our workforce is out on permanent disability.

Does anyone really think half our country couldn't get by without the government?  Or that 15% are disabled to the point that they can no longer work?  Really?  No fraud in any of that?  We aren't doing so much that we can't detect the enormous amount of fraud in the system?


I realize people are tired of reading this, but all these handouts, all this compassion, has created the devastation we see in our inner cities.  We've enticed a huge number to take the easy way out.  We don't give them quite enough to live well, but it's enough to trap them in dependency.  And look at the result - crime, addiction, dependency, blighted neighborhoods, hopelessness, misery, unemployment, resentment, illiteracy, single parent families, gangs.

Decades of the 'Progressives' implementing these policies in the cities they control politically.  No one even wonders if some of these policies are contributing to the problem - nope, it's just full steam ahead with more of the same.

These people don't need any more Liberal 'compassion'. 

They need opportunity, dignity, the pride of taking responsibility for themselves and providing for themselves.  At this point i's been going on for generations - it's not enough to offer opportunity, they need real educations, job skills, and motivation.

For the Liberal voter, it's about emotions, about feeling good about oneself.  Don't look in the rear view mirror to see what the real life results are - but if you do, blame it on someone else's 'lack of compassion'.


Aw fuck it.  I think I'll just give up.  This is stuff people are either able to understand or they aren't. 

[onan]

Say what you want about the ACA - but I think now is not the time to be rolling this out. A lot of people are stuggling in this poor economy. Compound this with record student loan debt and graduates unable to get good paying jobs. What is essentially a new tax will pull a greater amount of the population into government dependency - creating a huge debt load as the system will never be balanced and able to pay for itself.

Yeah except almost 18 cents of every dollar spent goes to health care and it's expected to hit 20 cents within a few years. Student loans have nothing to do with that equation.

[Yorkshire pud]

Which, like a good conservative, you leapt before you looked because your assertion is just plain wrong.  I won't even bother because I'm sure YP's about to lay it down on you.

Really, it would be helpful if people on the right would stop assuming they knew everything about everything.  You don't and that's why you make messes like our current healthcare system and our financial system.

I'm reluctant to lay it down for him to be honest because whatever I say from my own and my close family's experience of a 'free at the point of need' health service, he'll type a couple of volumes of stuff that disagrees with me. He won't stop and think that perhaps, just perhaps there might be something in it. But here goes:

I've said before (several times) that the NHS isn't perfect, and it has in some ways become a victim of it's own success. It also has many things that need to change (mainly managerial by the top bosses), but the thing is, since 1948 when it was put in place, many many millions of poor people who didn't in some cases have a chance of any kind of decent food (remember the Uk were still rationing until the 50's after WW2) let alone pay insurance for health would simply have died. Insurance doesn't cover many ongoing problems that are discovered after the policy is takne out, many don't cover multiple visits to hospital for an ongoing problem. The NHS trains ALL British trained doctors; it's teaching hospitals reputation is such that medical students come from all over the world to train to be doctors-yes, even from rich countries!

I mentioned my father; Okay, his problems started in about 88. First angina attack. Because of it he gave up his job of being a truck driver, but driving was the least of his problems because then his attack was followed by a triple by-pass. Since then he's had a heart attack, innumerable angina attacks, twice he's had a TIA (mini stroke), a duodenal ulcer that caused a real mess inside him, that very nearly killed him; so close to death that my brother rushed 200 miles to see him, the doctors telling us both that it was unlikely he'd last the night; but the old sod did. We had no idea how we'd pass the docs prediction on to our mother, so we didn't. Oh, and his spectacles he gets for free too, he's had a cataract op too. Hearing aids, and enough meds to open his own pharmacy.


Not a snowball's chance in hell would any insurance policy have covered all that and he not have to sell all he owns to pay the premium. Unless you know of one?

[Quick Karl]

Aw fuck it.  I think I'll just give up.  This is stuff people are either able to understand or they aren't.

PB,

You are wasting your time in here - these idiots wouldn't give a nod to a single point you've made if their own children's lives (presuming they are in normal, heterosexual, procreative, relationships, and are not on mood altering prescription drugs as a means of coping with life) depended on it. These are the kinds of idiots that will turn a blind eye to Hollywood cock suckers making hundreds of millions of dollars because they "say" they support a liberal agenda, and blame you for the ills of the country because you refuse to adopt the dogma.

According to them the only people responsible for the state of our society are rich white conservatives and the rich white and black liberals are innocent of all guilt, in anything. It's a vast white/right-wing conspiracy you know...

They don't deserve your respect, patience, or energy.

Note to Pud - don't ask me to explain the nuances because clearly they are beyond your willingness to comprehend.

[PB the Deplorable]

You demonstrate a poor understanding of health and health care with the statement:
No one is dropping dead in front of you. But people are dropping dead, just out of sight. Some have insurance, but the costs are beyond their ability to pay. I had a work associate who's father had cancer. His insurance would not cover the treatment that offered the best hope, because it was too expensive and too new. He died less than 4 months later. But others, in that hospital were getting that treatment. They were able to afford the newer treatment. And that kind of hospital "ethics" goes on daily all over this country.

I am so fucking sick of the Neanderthal Ted Cruse types out there that suggest ER's are the place to get treatment.

In 2009 The Journal of American Public Health estimated that 45,000 deaths due to lack of insurance. And the number has increased to 48,000.

Not to mention that more than 60% of personal bankruptcies are a direct result of medical bills, and those people had insurance.

I get that things are shitty sometimes.  It's never going to be perfect.  Nothing is.  So we are left to try to do what's the best for the most.  I personally think a free market with the right regulations in place is better than any other system at distributing most goods and services.  I have no reason to believe medical care is any different.

I know some people get better care than others, just like some people go to better schools than others, live in nicer homes in better neighborhoods than others, drive better cars and all the rest.  It is always going to be that way, regardless of what we do.  I am sure not seeing the improvement under ObamaCare.  In fact it's going so poorly we aren't even supposed to call it ObamaCare anymore.

I will admit I'm no expert in medical care.  Just about everything I've read and heard about socialized medicine - which admittedly isn't an enormous amount over the years - leads me to believe it works great if someone needs something cheap and easy.  So people like it.  Until they get older and start having more medical issues.

From what I've read, there are lines, waiting lists, poor service too often.  Certain equipment, procedures, and medications we take for granted are unavailable.  I's rationed and the elderly often just don't get treatment.  I have no idea how much of this is true.  What I will say is it sure sounds like how things would be done if a government - any government - were doing them.


As far as ObamaCare - all the lies, all the policies being cancelled, all the employment issues (jobs cut, hours cut, companies not hiring due to lack of clarity)... if they were truly trying to good (and this isn't really just about transferring wealth and playing politics) I think they should have started out by leaving the people who had insurance alone (like they said they were going to do) and offering catastrophic insurance to people that had no insurance or lousy coverage. 

But they didn't.

[Quick Karl]

Not to mention that more than 60% of personal bankruptcies are a direct result of medical bills, and those people had insurance.

I have an idea, let's bankrupt the whole country, this way its fair.

If health care workers are so wrought with concern maybe they should start volunteering to work for less - maybe minimum wage, so its all fair.

[onan]

I get that things are shitty sometimes.  It's never going to be perfect.  Nothing is.  So we are left to try to do what's the best for the most.  I personally think a free market with the right regulations in place is better than any other system at distributing most goods and services.  I have no reason to believe medical care is any different.

I know some people get better care than others, just like some people go to better schools than others, live in nicer homes in better neighborhoods than others, drive better cars and all the rest.  It is always going to be that way, regardless of what we do.  I am sure not seeing the improvement under ObamaCare.  In fact it's going so poorly we aren't even supposed to call it ObamaCare anymore.

I will admit I'm no expert in medical care.  Just about everything I've read and heard about socialized medicine - which admittedly isn't an enormous amount over the years - leads me to believe it works great if someone needs something cheap and easy.  So people like it.  Until they get older and start having more medical issues.

From what I've read, there are lines, waiting lists, poor service too often.  Certain equipment, procedures, and medications we take for granted are unavailable.  I's rationed and the elderly often just don't get treatment.  I have no idea how much of this is true.  What I will say is it sure sounds like how things would be done if a government - any government - were doing them.


As far as ObamaCare - all the lies, all the policies being cancelled, all the employment issues (jobs cut, hours cut, companies not hiring due to lack of clarity)... if they were truly trying to good (and this isn't really just about transferring wealth and playing politics) I think they should have started out by leaving the people who had insurance alone (like they said they were going to do) and offering catastrophic insurance to people that had no insurance or lousy coverage. 

But they didn't.

It isn't just that things are shitty. The point that seems to elude is that uninsured healthcare is as much as 50 times as expensive as healthcare in the appropriate setting. I have said this before but it continues to be overlooked or ignored. Managed care is so much cheaper than the system we have in place now. As to Obamacare. Only an idiot would look at only one side of the political spectrum. Obama lied? Really, that is your bench mark? Jesus PB either you are willingly blind or just plain stubborn.

[Quick Karl]

It isn't just that things are shitty. The point that seems to elude is that uninsured healthcare is as much as 50 times as expensive as healthcare in the appropriate setting. I have said this before but it continues to be overlooked or ignored. Managed care is so much cheaper than the system we have in place now. As to Obamacare. Only an idiot would look at only one side of the political spectrum. Obama lied? Really, that is your bench mark? Jesus PB either you are willingly blind or just plain stubborn.

But Bush relied on information he was given from the CIA and NSA and even the UN and democrats in congress voted to approve his actions, but Bush lied...  :

[PB the Deplorable]

PB,

You are wasting your time in here - these idiots wouldn't give a nod to a single point you've made...

They don't deserve your respect, patience, or energy...

That's the thing, they aren't idiots.  It staggers me that so many otherwise very intelligent people - many of my friends included - are so confused when it comes to politics or economics.

Try telling someone we have $17 Trillion in National Debt (outstanding Federal bonds), plus however many Trillion the states, cities and local agencies have, and future unfunded liabilities are some $90 Trillion (Social Security, Medicare, Federal Pensions), and that all the wealth in the entire world is about $100 Trillion.  When they hear it or read it, they just go on to talking about Bush or Reagan or racism or compassion.

When this whole thing collapses, they will still be blaming the wrong people.  It is truly astonishing.

[onan]

But Bush relied on information he was given from the CIA and NSA and even the UN and democrats in congress voted to approve his actions, but Bush lied...  :

I have no idea your point. If you are going to argue that democrats lie, it is juvenile to think your side doesn't. If we choose to stop problem solving due to talking heads spinning shit... well I don't need to explain.

[Quick Karl]

I have no idea your point. If you are going to argue that democrats lie, it is juvenile to think your side doesn't. If we choose to stop problem solving due to talking heads spinning shit... well I don't need to explain.

Well then have the fucking spine to admit that Obama willingly lied instead of acting like its just a convenient distorted out-of-context talking point for people that disagree with your political agenda. You know he lied. Everyone knows he lied. The thing is, you don't give a fuck about that so long as it promotes your social dogma.

[onan]

Well then have the fucking spine to admit that Obama willingly lied instead of acting like its just a convenient distorted out-of-context talking point for people that disagree with your political agenda. You know he lied. Everyone knows he lied. The thing is, you don't give a fuck about that so long as it promotes your social dogma.

And how are you different? And my social dogma is about health care. It seems yours is about being right and hating the other side. Honestly, I don't follow the news. I have no idea what you suggest Obama lied about. I know it didn't involve starting a war. Yeah he has his fingers in it now, and I didn't vote for him the second time because of it. What I do know is your blind plagiarism of Ted Cruse is the worst solution to making health care economically stable. I know you think little of me, but man, we outspend all other industrialized countries 2 to 1 and we have much poorer outcomes. And yes I remember your snide remark about how polls (which it wasn't) could sway information.

As I have pointed out a few times here, you are clueless when it comes to health care. That is just the truth, unkind perhaps but true. And yet you consider yourself the answer man.

[PB the Deplorable]

It isn't just that things are shitty. The point that seems to elude is that uninsured healthcare is as much as 50 times as expensive as healthcare in the appropriate setting. I have said this before but it continues to be overlooked or ignored. Managed care is so much cheaper than the system we have in place now. As to Obamacare. Only an idiot would look at only one side of the political spectrum. Obama lied? Really, that is your bench mark? Jesus PB either you are willingly blind or just plain stubborn.

Obama didn't just lie.  He lied repeatedly about pretty much the entire thing.  For years.  Knowingly.  Intentionally.  Nothing he or the other Democrats said from the time they started working on it up to now has been true.  And it's devastating.  The worst piece of legislation in the history of the United States.  My benchmark is somewhere in there.

I do get that the pre-ObamaCare system was terrible.  I would have preferred they addressed the problems, not done what they did. 

There are so many things in this country that need to be addressed.  The health insurance industry is just one of them.  Education is another.  The long term solvency of Social Security and Medicare are two more.  The National debt, the national unfunded liability.  The solvency of states and cities.  The way the Fed operates.  The way Wall St operates.  All the money we've been printing the past few years.  The tax code.  The pollution - especially our oceans and our groundwater.  Immigration.  Dealing with Russia, China, radical Islam. 

Bush I did little to address any of it.  Clinton (the self proclaimed 'policy wonk') didn't do a damn thing for 8 years.  Bush II ignored much of it and moved us in the wrong direction on a lot of it.  Obama is in way over his head, and even if he weren't his world view does not allow him to take any positive steps.

What we need right now is to focus on the economy and job creation.  Obama has no idea what should be done or how to do it.  And isn't interested in doing so anyway.

We've wasted decades while these problems piled up.  We are now fucked.  The last thing we needed was this ObamaCare boondoggle.

[onan]

Obama didn't just lie.  He lied repeatedly about pretty much the entire thing.  For years.  Knowingly.  Intentionally.  Nothing he or the other Democrats said from the time they started working on it up to now has been true.  And it's devastating.  The worst piece of legislation in the history of the United States.  My benchmark is somewhere in there.

I do get that the pre-ObamaCare system was terrible.  I would have preferred they addressed the problems, not done what they did. 

There are so many things in this country that need to be addressed.  The health insurance industry is just one of them.  Education is another.  The long term solvency of Social Security and Medicare are two more.  The National debt, the national unfunded liability.  The solvency of states and cities.  The way the Fed operates.  The way Wall St operates.  All the money we've been printing the past few years.  The tax code.  The pollution - especially our oceans and our groundwater.  Immigration.  Dealing with Russia, China, radical Islam. 

Bush I did little to address any of it.  Clinton (the self proclaimed 'policy wonk') didn't do a damn thing for 8 years.  Bush II ignored much of it and moved us in the wrong direction on a lot of it.  Obama is in way over his head, and even if he weren't his world view does not allow him to take any positive steps.

What we need right now is to focus on the economy and job creation.  Obama has no idea what should be done or how to do it.  And isn't interested in doing so anyway.

We've wasted decades while these problems piled up.  We are now fucked.  The last thing we needed was this ObamaCare boondoggle.

Since health care is about 20 percent of the money spent in this country and probably the one of the biggest employers, it may be a very good place to start.

[onan]

I have an idea, let's bankrupt the whole country, this way its fair.

If health care workers are so wrought with concern maybe they should start volunteering to work for less - maybe minimum wage, so its all fair.

Many of them work close to poverty levels. I doubt you have any clue here either. The people making the big money... shareholders and upper management. The CEO at the last hospital I worked at could have had 7 doctors for the same price. 35 nurses. Over a hundred techs.

You aren't interested in discussion, you just want to blame everyone for your pissy existence. hope it works for you.