Edward Snowden..saint or sinner?

[Eddie Coyle]

Go for the Ukraine, Eddie.  You could walk right by him and I'm sure little Ed D. wouldn't have a clue.

Little Ed indeed. He seems like a real twerp.

[The General]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Z1AWP5tBFY8#at=24

[Yorkshire pud]

Interestingly the BBC is reporting that the US authorities are wanting Snowden on espionage charges..So the agenda is being set. Gloss over what it is he's revealed, and make him the bad guy. Enough feeds to the media and before you know it, he'll be up there with Genghis Khan as unsavoury individuals.


This woman was on our Breakfast TV show this morning via Skype from Dusseldoorf. She is the ex girlfriend of David Shaylar, and was herself an ex operative at MI5. Her blog makes interesting reading. I don't agree with everything she espouses, but the thrust of what she says is to my mind quite disturbing.


http://anniemachon.ch/

[onan]

There is this:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=gDPeNkV0OGM#at=42

[Yorkshire pud]

Latest is he's disappeared in Moscow.. Never got on the flight to Cuba. Which will be a wasted journey for the press who booked the same flight, and possibly those not with the press who might cosy up with him.. It's either a plan to throw various parties off the track, or it's not good at all.


Additionally; The US have cancelled his passport. That will explain why he can't get out of Russia. He certainly wouldn't be allowed in the other end. His options I would have thought now are limited. The CIA will know where he is, or soon will, and they'll just choose their moment to lift him, throw him on a C5 as diplomatic baggage and land somewhere, where torture is apparently legal. I'll be surprised if he's still living in a month, and if he's found dead it will be a convenient suicide. The machine will roll on, over us all.

[FightTheFuture]

In giving materials to China, Russia or Cuba, Snowden will have crossed the line and made it clear he's picking sides. I mean, really - you give a mass of classified information to China because they're such a huge supporter of privacy, openness in government and human rights? Sure.You're not a hero when you give our enemies classified materials which aid them . Had he wanted to be a hero, he would have stopped at whistleblower. But that's not what he's done, is it?

Yeah, that`s the rub; he claims to be a patriot, but runs to all our adversaries. A little pipsqueak with a Walter Mitty complex. Nothing more; nothing less.


I don`t doubt he may have laid his little dick skinners on some interesting material and promptly stole it. But there is no possible way - none - that his position at Booze Allen gave him anywhere near the access he claims to have had. There are so many holes in his story that one is tempted to invoke the swiss cheese cliche.


According to a WaPo story, CIA officials were "troubled" by things he relayed to The Guardian newspaper. Terms he used, and small details of his story did not make sense.


Yet, we`re to believe this guy, with zero accomplishments, shoddy employment record, no academic credentials (not even a H.S. DIPLOMA! ) in less than 3 months, is handed the keys to the kingdom; the veritable means to bring "grievous" damage to the U.S. spy network? Anybody that believes that...




To quote another big, fat liar:   [size=78%]Hillary Disses Patraeus[/size][size=78%]  [/size]

[Yorkshire pud]

Yeah, that`s the rub; he claims to be a patriot, but runs to all our adversaries. A little pipsqueak with a Walter Mitty complex. Nothing more; nothing less.

Which bit of "He's limited to which countries he can go to because of their extradition treaties with the USA or it's allies" are you struggling with?


I think it kills any notion that Obama has any allies within the Chinese administration, because they apparently advised Snowden to leave, and gave him safe passage to do so.
 

I don`t doubt he may have laid his little dick skinners on some interesting material and promptly stole it. But there is no possible way - none - that his position at Booze Allen gave him anywhere near the access he claims to have had. There are so many holes in his story that one is tempted to invoke the swiss cheese cliche.

Go on..list what it is he's allegedly stolen. List what he claims to have stolen.


I'll make it easy for you: He's told the British press what it is the NSA are doing and have been doing against you. But as long as you're okay with that, and you can carry the rest of your population with you, there's no problem. But don't ever criticise the present or any past or future US government when it comes to wanting  to access private information about you.

According to a WaPo story, CIA officials were "troubled" by things he relayed to The Guardian newspaper. Terms he used, and small details of his story did not make sense.

They're 'troubled' because he's revealed things about them that they don't want you to know. Namely they're spying on you.

Yet, we`re to believe this guy, with zero accomplishments, shoddy employment record, no academic credentials (not even a H.S. DIPLOMA! ) in less than 3 months, is handed the keys to the kingdom; the veritable means to bring "grievous" damage to the U.S. spy network? Anybody that believes that...

Ha ha! What a crock of bollox. Because he doesn't have a diploma makes him unqualified to know about computer and comms systems? You carry on believing that, when a 13 year old in his bedroom hacks your computer. My younger brother (who does have diplomas and certificates, but noot specific to his skills) has no computer degree. He worked at Sony in the UK, in an office with six other software engineers. He and one other had no degree, but both had more knowledge of what they were doing than the other five..


One lunchtime in a moment of boredom they accessed the heavily firewalled intranet of the well known graphics card company where his g/f worked at the time.. In that time he sent her an e mail; Texted her to read her mails...The message was "Firewalls are for girls".


If this gut Snowden is such a lowly operator why the fuss? Why chase him around? He doesn't know anything so no point trying to make him to be something he isn't eh?
But you carry on believing the statements from the very government you openly and vociferously condemn on these very forum pages if it brings you comfort..maybe you'll have it explained to you where your dichotomy of thought lies.

[Yorkshire pud]

Yeah, that`s the rub; he claims to be a patriot, but runs to all our adversaries. A little pipsqueak with a Walter Mitty complex. Nothing more; nothing less.

Did you have the same opinion of Russians and East Germans who escaped from their respective countries to the west? You do understand don't you that he's left everything behind? His family, his friends, everything that is important; Only he felt that telling everyone (including those who don't agree with what he did) about the subversive tactics of the NSA and GCHQ on their respective own populations was far more important. History is littered with those who speak out, are condemned as traitors, and only later it's shown what they're battling against is the treachery of their own government. Or have you turned into a Democrat official in the last few days?

[b_dubb]

What I find comical about the ruckus that's stirred up around this story is that in 2009 PBS Nova did a show called Spy Factory which detailed 9/11 and the security apparatus that sprang up afterwards. They described a program run by the NSA that listened in on all electronic communications. This story is only news for people who haven't been paying attention. I think Snowden is a political patsy and that his story serves a political power agenda though I'm not entirely sure who will benefit. If anyone

[Sardondi]

...I think it kills any notion that Obama has any allies within the Chinese administration, because they apparently advised Snowden to leave, and gave him safe passage to do so....

The one thing we can be sure of in this weird case is that China and Russia aren't giving the sweat off their diplomatic balls to what the Obama Administration wants or wishes. A generation ago they wouldn't have dared to have run the risk of twisting the US lion's tail without Snowden being a major player and worth a huge flap, such as if he were a genuine agent with intel gold in his pocket. Even as recently as a decade ago Russia and China would have stage-managed all kinds of camera-ops meant to embarrass the US, like the Comanches doing  a victory dance, because even a publicity victory over the US was nothing to sneeze at. Today? They can't be bothered with making some kind of ideological coup out of this because, frankly, why should they lower themselves to be seen caring about a fourth-rater like Obama? He's shown himself such an incompetent in so many foreign fields, the latest humiliation coming in Berlin just last week when President Teleprompter could barely do more than speak his won name when a glitch occurred in the secret script to his Impromptu Remarks.

Great. Obama has destroyed the last vestiges of foreign policy juice the US presidency had. Now not only is the US ignored about what it wants, but what were once our sworn political foes can't even make the effort to embarrass a sitting US President. Because he simply doesn't matter. It would be like mocking the Special Ed kids who lose at "Jeopardy"...and Russia and China have more self-respect than that. They'll save their "in your face" stuff for a country who matters, like Canada.

[Juan]

I haven't decided whether he's a saint or sinner, but we'll see what he gives to other countries.  If it's nothing - everything he says is public - I'd compare him to Daniel Ellsberg who leaked the Pentagon Papers.  The government had a fit and accused him of being a traitor, but what he told was only news to the American people.  The commies already knew it.

[ItsOver]

.....They'll save their "in your face" stuff for a country who matters, like Canada.

LOL... sad, but true. 'O may as well be running around spouting "Respect my authoritah!!!"

[Meanandnasty]

Run to the Pope, Saint Snowden.

Don't even say the word torture.  He deserves none of that.  He spoke up, and let us know what our government has concocted behind our backs.  They are scrambling to make them selves look like they don't have eggs on their face, when the administration or whoever is behind this appears like burnt toast.

[West of the Rockies]

I'm pretty much with you on this Mean&Nasty (and others).  I think it's ridiculous to stagger into Alex Jones territory and see everything as a sign of government corruption or incompetence, but I think it's also foolish to bury one's head in the sand and claim our government (or big business for that matter) would never do anything to harm its citizens/consumers.  The government -- which is composed, in part, of people who hunger for power -- has a long history of doing nefarious things to achieve its goals.  This doesn't make Snowden a genius or an idiot, but he did pretty much change his life forever to do something he believed in.  Of course, we could say the same thing about a terrorist, I suppose -- those guys likely see themselves not as terrorists, but as freedom fighters and such.  Still, Snowden did not blow anything or anybody up -- he lifted the lid on a big ol' pot 'o poo that needs to be dealt with.

[stevesh]

Saint.

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2013/06/26/195045/memories-of-stasi-color-germans.html#.UdAOW9iwWjt

“You know, for us, this would have been a dream come true,” he said, recalling the days when he was a lieutenant colonel in the defunct communist country’s secret police, the Stasi.

[PB the Deplorable]

Saint.

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2013/06/26/195045/memories-of-stasi-color-germans.html#.UdAOW9iwWjt

“You know, for us, this would have been a dream come true,” he said, recalling the days when he was a lieutenant colonel in the defunct communist country’s secret police, the Stasi.

A person can turn blue trying to tell people who the Left truly are and what their intentions are, and they may as well be talking to rocks.  Regardless of what the Left themselves say, what they do right in front of us given a chance, what a quick review of human nature would suggest, what the great political thinkers of the past have warned about and the subsequent history of events in way too many places, or how often people currently predicting their actions turn out to be correct. 

It's always different this time, it can't happen here, it wasn't done right last time, the non-Left has flaws too so lets call it even, we really like a few of these policies and anyone against them is beyond the pale, we're just so smart and they are so dumb, it's about fairness, this just sounds so good and makes me fell good too, they're 'racists' (or whatever the smear of the day is) and we aren't, Stalin, the Nazis, Mao, Pol Pot etc weren't really Leftists, Obama, Progressive leaders, Occupy, Soros, Big Media, etc aren't really Leftists, etc, etc, etc.

[Yorkshire pud]

Same story different perspective, same shit storm. Can smell it from here. 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-23116517




http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/30/nsa-spying-europe-claims-us-eu-trade

[Treading Water]

I haven't decided whether he's a saint or sinner, but we'll see what he gives to other countries.  If it's nothing - everything he says is public - I'd compare him to Daniel Ellsberg who leaked the Pentagon Papers.  The government had a fit and accused him of being a traitor, but what he told was only news to the American people.  The commies already knew it.

I remember the Pentagon Papers.  I wish I was as idealistic now as I was then. 
Sinner or saint, this young man is lost.  Who can he trust?  He is being and will be misused by everyone.
It just makes me extremely sad...All this shit going down and all I can think about is how much he must want a hug from his mother.
It will not end well.

[West of the Rockies]

I heard on NPR that now the NSA is being accused of tapping European Union lines and offices...  This is looking very ugly.  I have to confess to NOT doing much research on the Snowden story.  I think he's exposed some ugly stuff that is deeply concerning and perhaps quite illegal.  If he is doing so by dumping all the info on the Chinese and Russians, however, then the whole thing begins to smack of espionage (selling secrets).  I think I'll let the story develop and watch you guys all duke it out before I offer anymore under-informed opinions.

[Yorkshire pud]

A fictitious phone call between Obama and David Cameron UK Prime minister.


O: Hi Dave; wassup man?


C: Oh, hello Barack, do you know what time it is here?


O: Hey, I'm sorry Dave, I can call back tomorrow if it's late.


C: No, it's okay; I'll be getting up anyway in three hours, but 3am is as good at time as any. What can I do for you?


O: It's the Snowden thing. I won't beat about the bush, we want his ass, and quick, but we've kinda run up against a bit of; what do you Brits call it? Own goal?


C: You mean the German spying thing; I mean your people spying on the Germans, Oh and the rest of the EU; I have to be straight with you Barack, there's some really pissed off politicians this side of the pond, and in their buildings in DC..Merkel Is furious. You know how the Germans can get when they're pissed off, and she's not exactly the easiest to get along with in the first place.


O: Hell, I'm sorry Dave. I know it's put you in a bit of a tight spot. Can you put a word in for us? It isn't really my fault, they've been doing it for years. Putin is pissing himself laughing about this..he keeps calling me and giggling down the phone asking what it's like to be seen as the bad guy for a change..He blows party trumpets with his staff and hangs up.. I gotta tell you Dave,, the oval office isn't a good place to be right now. Michelle keeps asking who the man with the east European accent is before passing me the phone.


C: Well, I'm sorry he's giving you a hard time Barack, but he's right in a way. For years we've been telling anyone who will listen that the Soviets and latterly the Russians can't be trusted because they spy on everyone over here..Now they don't have to, The USA is spying on everyone over here..


O: Yeah, but we don't tell the Russians Dave..We only collect the information for us about you, and don't tell anyone else. Okay, so we also spy on our own population, but like I said, it isn't exactly a new thing. It's been going on for decades, we can just do it faster and more efficiently now.


C: So what do you want me to tell Merkel?


O: Just that we're really really sorry she found out.. Do this for me Dave, and I'll let you beat me at tennis next time you're over.


C: Okay Barack. Goodnight..I'm going back to bed.

[Jackpine Savage]

Which leads me to my next question: Why the fuck was all this information in the hands of a private contractor, in the first place?

Duh.

Same reason private contractors are paid to do all the real nasty stuff in Iraq and Afghanistan. Plausible deniability.

[Yorkshire pud]

Are you getting this in the US? Can you imagine Air force one being told to land? This is a direct breach of international law. No ifs, no buts. What is  infuriating is Obama has tried to justify what the NSA has been doing. The only thing Snowden has done is tell you and me they're doing it. 




http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-23158242

[PB the Deplorable]

Are you getting this in the US? Can you imagine Air force one being told to land? This is a direct breach of international law. No ifs, no buts. What is  infuriating is Obama has tried to justify what the NSA has been doing. The only thing Snowden has done is tell you and me they're doing it. 




http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-23158242

Obama has no interest in following laws.  He never has.  This administration is completely lawless and has been since the beginning.   When he thinks he can get away with it, he'd rather just rule by decree.  So far his accomplices in the Media have provided cover. 

We have a Marxist 'Constitutional Lawyer' - which basically means someone expert in attempting to get around the Constitution - but also a ranking member of the Chicago Political Machine - known for their underhanded and Alinsky tactics.  What did people think they were getting with this guy?

[Yorkshire pud]

Get yourselves along to this:


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-23160309

[b_dubb]

What I find comical about the ruckus that's stirred up around this story is that in 2009 PBS Nova did a show called Spy Factory which detailed 9/11 and the security apparatus that sprang up afterwards. They described a program run by the NSA that listened in on all electronic communications. This story is only news for people who haven't been paying attention. I think Snowden is a political patsy and that his story serves a political power agenda though I'm not entirely sure who will benefit. If anyone

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/military/spy-factory.html

[Jackpine Savage]

Obama has no interest in following laws.  He never has.  This administration is completely lawless and has been since the beginning.   When he thinks he can get away with it, he'd rather just rule by decree.  So far his accomplices in the Media have provided cover. 

We have a Marxist 'Constitutional Lawyer' - which basically means someone expert in attempting to get around the Constitution - but also a ranking member of the Chicago Political Machine - known for their underhanded and Alinsky tactics.  What did people think they were getting with this guy?

Free stuff?

[Gd5150]

Wait til they find out how much free govt healthcare costs them.

[Yorkshire pud]

I didn't write this; but I found it on another forum, the person writing it, is not usually given to such opinions as this. He's a very measured and thoughtful contributor.

From the reaction to Mr Snowden and the fact they are so anxious to get hold of him says to me he is holding information that would discredit the US government to the point of having a devastating effect on society. I am shocked by the response of some people who simply shrug their shoulders and say 'i don't care' when the quality of life of those who make these remarks and future generations are at stake. The freedom of the average citizen is being eroded on a daily basis by those who want to control us in every aspect of our lives and if it continues at the rate it's going even the right to don't care will be removed from us.We are not humans anymore,just data.

Apposite?

[Juan]

I doubt he has information that would have such and effect on society - the government and politicians,maybe.

[stevesh]

From a Google+ poster:

"Edward Snowden should seek asylum in the only place on the planet that is completely beyond reach of U.S. law enforcement: Wall Street."