Explosions at Boston Marathon

[PB the Deplorable]

If I were the father of that 8 year old boy, I might just go Jack Ruby on that subhuman piece of shit.

Turns out the Russians had Tam and the mother on a recorded phone call discussing jihad, and the dad says he came to visit for 4 months and he doesn't know where he was or what he was doing for the other 2 months he was in Russia.


When these two get off the airplane I wouldn't mind seeing them have the Benigno Aquino experience.




And by the way, all that talk - years and years of talk - about how Bush should have anticipated 9/11 because in the haystacks of information the FBI collects there might have been a few needles of information to be pieced together -- where is the same talk about Obama when we find out that the Russians contacted our authorites multiple times directly with specific warnings about these people?

[UnscreenedCaller]

With all due respect, unless someone's experienced an event like the Boston bombings or 9/11, or even going back, Pearl Harbor,  it's difficult to understand how very deeply events like that shake people. Sadly, I realize bombings are a way of life in many places and they, understandably, handle it differently but in the post-Boston bombing days, the police didn't know what they had on their hands, domestic or foreign terrorists, or just a lone nutjob out to cause mayhem. They knew nothing about these guys until the tapes surfaced and the calls came in, and even then, it wasn't clear if they acted alone, if they shot their loads at the Marathon, or if they had even more lethal bombs like dirty bombs at their disposal. According to #2, NYC was next on their 'to do' list. I can't fault the police for shutting the city down with all these uncertainties, not after what they witnessed at the finish line.


We've lost our innocence with 9/11, and in my opinion at least, I think this latest bombing was handled much more efficiently in the days afterwards because protocol had been set and Boston was prepared. The government takes this very seriously, post 9/11. My son, a volunteer firefighter, took a Homeland Security training course out west that dealt with events like this. Right from the start, he said 'foreign' because of the pressure cookers. And he's just one out of thousands of first responders who have been trained in this area. Boston did a damn good job tracking down #2, capturing him alive and getting him behind bars.

[Eddie Coyle]

If I were the father of that 8 year old boy, I might just go Jack Ruby on that subhuman piece of shit.

That boy was from a neighborhood in Boston called Savin Hill which is an epicenter of cops/firemen and...correctional officers.

          It won't happen, but if there was ever a scenario designed for an inside job involving an "accident" to occur
       "You know the prisoner had been very depressed and told us he was suicidal...

[Yorkshire pud]

Turns out the Russians had Tam and the mother on a recorded phone call discussing jihad, and the dad says he came to visit for 4 months and he doesn't know where he was or what he was doing for the other 2 months he was in Russia.


When these two get off the airplane I wouldn't mind seeing them have the Benigno Aquino experience.




And by the way, all that talk - years and years of talk - about how Bush should have anticipated 9/11 because in the haystacks of information the FBI collects there might have been a few needles of information to be pieced together -- where is the same talk about Obama when we find out that the Russians contacted our authorites multiple times directly with specific warnings about these people?

The above not withstanding it's also worth mentioning that until the atrocities visited on Boston, the received wisdom was that those in Chechnya with grievances against Russia were perceived as freedom fighters in the US. These two individuals may or may not have been anti Russia, but what is possible is they were feeling that their cause was pro Chechnya, whose political make up is complex and isn't simply as black and white as 'damn muslims'. In fact something I read posted elsewhere the other day made me feel it exemplified at how monochrome some see the world.


From The Onion:

WASHINGTONâ€"Following FBI reports this morning that the suspects implicated in Monday’s Boston Marathon bombing are of Chechen descent, efforts to thoughtlessly stereotype the alleged terrorists were impeded by the majority of Americans’ lack of basic knowledge about Chechnya or the Chechen people, a new study has confirmed. “Our research shows that, while many Americans would like nothing more than to make sweeping, insensitive generalizations about these two individuals based purely on their ethnic identity, this process is largely impeded by the fact that 9 out of 10 Americans truly know next to nothing about Chechnya, including even the very barest details of what or where Chechnya is,” said lead researcher Dr. Tim Kinane, adding that a majority of American citizens are almost totally unaware of Chechen history and culture, how to locate Chechnya on a map, whether Chechnya is a country or a city or a region, or that a person from Chechnya is called a Chechen. “Clinical trials show that most individuals will make brief, fumbling attempts to stereotype Chechens based on what little they know about Russians, but eventually drop the subject entirely after running out of anything to say within seconds.” Kinane’s team was able to confirm, however, that once research subjects were told Chechnya is a predominantly Muslim region, they were “usually pretty good to go from there."

It's also worth mentioning but will be quietly swept aside that one young man has been found dead because he was wrongly accused by Reddit and later the New York Post (That great Murdoch leftie, commie, pinko, liberal mouthpiece) of being one of the suspects. That's the danger of jumping too conclusions. It's easy (As you have predictably done) to attack Obama (not that he would have had any direct access to the intelligence) for not taking heed of the Russians. You and I have no idea how many such warning flags are posted each day about suspects, and how the information is processed and evaluated. The same happens in this country: Tens of thousends of strands that need a real human or humans to sift through..And if they don't, well similar to sports fans, everyone in the crowd is an expert and knows how to do it better.

[PB the Deplorable]

The above not withstanding it's also worth mentioning that until the atrocities visited on Boston, the received wisdom was that those in Chechnya with grievances against Russia were perceived as freedom fighters in the US...

I don't doubt that a bit.  After the wall fell, after the USSR collapsed, the US and the West really blew a great chance to be freinds with Russia.  We blew it by expanding NATO into the former East Bloc instead of winding it down, and supporting anti-Russian parties during national elections in places like The Ukraine and Georgia.  Clinton and Albreight, Bush and Rice, all their advisors, and their allies in the Congress.  Worse than stupid.

Since then, and especially with the rise of Putin the Russians have been gleefully sticking it to us aligning with places like Iran (helping them develope nukes), Venezuela, the Syrian government, misc Mid-East terror groups, and many others. 

The Chinese have their own problems in their far western province of Xinjang with breakaway Muslim Uigers. 

It would be just like the US State Department to be all smug and smirky about the troubles China and Russa are having with these people.  Maybe they do have a right to self determinaton.  But once they become radicalized and start with the terrorism, everyone should join together to defeat these Jihadi extremists - and not give an inch to them on anything,ever.  Any confusion, any concession, any sign the non-Muslims are split is seen as a sign of weakness.  For all our sakes, this needs to be strangled and ended.

[Yorkshire pud]

I don't doubt that a bit.  After the wall fell, after the USSR collapsed, the US and the West really blew a great chance to be freinds with Russia.  We blew it by expanding NATO into the former East Bloc instead of winding it down, and supporting anti-Russian parties during national elections in places like The Ukraine and Georgia.  Clinton and Albreight, Bush and Rice, all their advisors, and their allies in the Congress.  Worse than stupid.

Since then, and especially with the rise of Putin the Russians have been gleefully sticking it to us aligning with places like Iran (helping them develope nukes), Venezuela, the Syrian government, misc Mid-East terror groups, and many others. 

The Chinese have their own problems in their far western province of Xinjang with breakaway Muslim Uigers. 

It would be just like the US State Department to be all smug and smirky about the troubles China and Russa are having with these people.  Maybe they do have a right to self determinaton.  But once they become radicalized and start with the terrorism, everyone should join together to defeat these Jihadi extremists - and not give an inch to them on anything,ever.  Any confusion, any concession, any sign the non-Muslims are split is seen as a sign of weakness.  For all our sakes, this needs to be strangled and ended.

Hmmm, if it were only that simple. Firstly the 'muslims' themselves have various factions..It's why there is currently unrest in Bahrain (Sunni V Sh'ite), it's why Iraq imploded; It's why Iran is seen as the lynch pin amongst the Sh'ite Muslims. Simply saying it's 'the rest against muslim extremists' is over simplistic. It also circumvents other non muslim organisations and lets them off the hook in the public eye. We had the PIRA in the 70's and 80's funded by NORAID (ironically with a big presence in the Boston area) and had to get on with it. The PIRA were perceived (and still are by some fucks) as freedom fighters, giving it to the 'man' who was the UK government and it's population. These two young men did pretty much exactly the same thing as the PIRA routinely did back then in Ireland and mainland Britain. Neither is justified.

[PB the Deplorable]

Hmmm, if it were only that simple. Firstly the 'muslims' themselves have various factions..It's why there is currently unrest in Bahrain (Sunni V Sh'ite), it's why Iraq imploded; It's why Iran is seen as the lynch pin amongst the Sh'ite Muslims. Simply saying it's 'the rest against muslim extremists' is over simplistic. It also circumvents other non muslim organisations and lets them off the hook in the public eye. We had the PIRA in the 70's and 80's funded by NORAID (ironically with a big presence in the Boston area) and had to get on with it. The PIRA were perceived (and still are by some fucks) as freedom fighters, giving it to the 'man' who was the UK government and it's population. These two young men did pretty much exactly the same thing as the PIRA routinely did back then in Ireland and mainland Britain. Neither is justified.

I realize they are splintered into different factions - Sunni/Shia (and a few other smaller groups), ethnicly, different cultures, that strip from West Africa all the way to the southern Phillipines includes a lot of very different Muslims.  But they seem pretty united in radicalizm and violence.  By the rest of us, I mean the civilized world.  The non-Muslim world, to put a fine point on it.

We may as well write off all the Musims - all but about 10 of them seem to fall into one of 3 categories:  violent extremist jihadis, people who agree with and sympathize with violent extremist jihadis, and (what I think is a tiny few) the ones who don't agree with them but are afraid to speak out or stand up to them.  None of these people are useful to us in our attempt to eradicate the rats. 

Islam is just not compatible with the rest of the world.  The Muslims are not just another downtrodden group that will integrate like the peoples that have come here before them (unless their descendents turn away from Islam).  It is more than a religion, it is the law, the government, the economic system.  How do you integreate that into the West without the West caving in to their demands according to the Koran?  You don't.  We can either have things like equal rights for women or we can have a bunch of Muslims in our countries demanding their sharia crap.  We can't have both.  If we import too many of these people, we will have constant terrorism until either we become Muslim nations or until the end of time.  It doesn't matter how politically correct we want things to be, how nice we want to be seen as, how welcoming we are, how much we want to show them we mean no harm or ill will.  As soon as we figure that out we will be on the right track.  Hopefully it won't be too late.

[stevesh]

I realize they are splintered into different factions - Sunni/Shia (and a few other smaller groups), ethnicly, different cultures, that strip from West Africa all the way to the southern Phillipines includes a lot of very different Muslims.  But they seem pretty united in radicalizm and violence.  By the rest of us, I mean the civilized world.  The non-Muslim world, to put a fine point on it.

We may as well write off all the Musims - all but about 10 of them seem to fall into one of 3 categories:  violent extremist jihadis, people who agree with and sympathize with violent extremist jihadis, and (what I think is a tiny few) the ones who don't agree with them but are afraid to speak out or stand up to them.  None of these people are useful to us in our attempt to eradicate the rats. 

Islam is just not compatible with the rest of the world.  The Muslims are not just another downtrodden group that will integrate like the peoples that have come here before them (unless their descendents turn away from Islam).  It is more than a religion, it is the law, the government, the economic system.  How do you integreate that into the West without the West caving in to their demands according to the Koran?  You don't.  We can either have things like equal rights for women or we can have a bunch of Muslims in our countries demanding their sharia crap.  We can't have both.  If we import too many of these people, we will have constant terrorism until either we become Muslim nations or until the end of time.  It doesn't matter how politically correct we want things to be, how nice we want to be seen as, how welcoming we are, how much we want to show them we mean no harm or ill will.  As soon as we figure that out we will be on the right track.  Hopefully it won't be too late.

Since we in the West have most of the money, one way (maybe the best way) we could help mitigate anti-West sentiment in less developed countries is by providing jobs for those countries. Two problems with that:

1. Too much of the investment cash would be siphoned off as bribes to local functionaries ('freedom fighter' Yasser Arafat died a very wealthy man).

2. You wouldn't get me to build a factory in, say, Egypt, when I know that if some asshole I've never heard of in a country I've never visited (in other words, no connection to me at all) publishes a cartoon of The Prophet, my factory could very well be attacked and burned to the ground, possibly by the same people I hired to work there.

Islam will have to get over itself and join the rest of us in the 21st century before any of this can be fixed, I think.

[Juan]

Islam is a system of government with a religious mask.

[FightTheFuture]

Hey, FtF... Here are a couple of quotations from a book entitled The Eliminationists:  How Hate Talk Radicalized the American Right by David Neiwert.

This from a column written by Ann Coulter regarding Muslims:   "We should invade their countries, kill their leaders, and convert them to Christianity."  (How would we all feel if we heard some Imam say such a thing?)

That`s about as disingenuous as it gets.


You added absolutely zero context to Ann`s quote. It was written mere hours after Ann, and the rest of the civilized world, watched in disbelief and profound disgust as Muslims in rogue, anti-American nations took to the streets in celebration of the mass slaughter on 9/11. She had lost friends and friends of friends in that attack. It was a deeply emotional event -- as you may recall.


Frankly,  my own reaction was far more visceral than even Ann`s. I suspect many Americans would say the same.


Ann Coulter gets a mulligan on this one -- as do all Americans so moved on that horrible day. But I still  think it`s a bit under-handed to roll out a quote like that and present it with no context. Shame!

[Yorkshire pud]

Islam is a system of government with a religious mask.

And Christianity isn't? The reason modern religions came into being was as a means for kings, queens and dictators to scare the shit out of the peasants; how more effective than with an invisible unprovable deity who is all knowing and all seeing?

[Yorkshire pud]

Islam is just not compatible with the rest of the world.

Really? And when you say 'rest of the world'; Which countries are you discounting? By that token all Roman Catholic men are peadophiles, even though a few priests have been uncovered. It can be reasonably argued that the west has over previous decades exported it's particular flavour of terrorism, masquerading as spreading the word. That is how it is perceived; Insisting that a pilotless aircraft that wipes out a wedding party in Afghanistan is an accident doesn't make it less an act of terror to those it kills. Or is death by violent means only newsworthy and important if it's American lives? I can assure you (Check yourself) the west has killed far more in the name of 'freedom' with 'gods will' than have ever been killed by muslim extremists.

[Juan]

And Christianity isn't?

No, not even in your country where the Queen is the Defender of the Faith.  The queen is not really the head of government nor the head of the church. Though, I'll admit it's a closer call than here.  After all, that's some of what the little incident beginning in 1776 was about.

[PB the Deplorable]

Really? And when you say 'rest of the world'; Which countries are you discounting? By that token all Roman Catholic men are peadophiles, even though a few priests have been uncovered. It can be reasonably argued that the west has over previous decades exported it's particular flavour of terrorism, masquerading as spreading the word. That is how it is perceived; Insisting that a pilotless aircraft that wipes out a wedding party in Afghanistan is an accident doesn't make it less an act of terror to those it kills. Or is death by violent means only newsworthy and important if it's American lives? I can assure you (Check yourself) the west has killed far more in the name of 'freedom' with 'gods will' than have ever been killed by muslim extremists.

"Islam's borders are bloody and so are its innards. The fundamental problem for the West is not Islamic fundamentalism. It is Islam, a different civilisation whose people are convinced of the superiority of their culture and are obsessed with the inferiority of their power"
- Samuel P Huntington,  The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of the World Order (1993)

A fairly modern comment, but one can look through the writings of westerners that traveled to the Islamic lands over the past thousand years to find similar comments about the 'men of Muhomnnud'

Importing these people is not a lot different than bringing in an equivalent number of determined cannibals - if they voted the right way, the media put their spin on it, and it made certain people feel good about themselves, I imagine there would be plenty of advocates for that as well.

[Yorkshire pud]

No, not even in your country where the Queen is the Defender of the Faith.  The queen is not really the head of government nor the head of the church. Though, I'll admit it's a closer call than here.  After all, that's some of what the little incident beginning in 1776 was about.

The Queen is the head of the Anglican church. Although she isn't officially a government official, constitutionally she has considerable influence unofficially. To say religions don't have a political slant is ludicrous. Ireland's laws are written with catholic laws in their origination. For example it's illegal for a woman to have an abortion in Ireland, except under very strict rules and even then, only with a court intervening. Several years ago a 12 year old girl who had been raped by her father was refused an abortion because of their primitive laws. It's why many women fly to the UK to have it done.

[PB the Deplorable]

The Queen is the head of the Anglican church. Although she isn't officially a government official, constitutionally she has considerable influence unofficially. To say religions don't have a political slant is ludicrous. Ireland's laws are written with catholic laws in their origination. For example it's illegal for a woman to have an abortion in Ireland, except under very strict rules and even then, only with a court intervening. Several years ago a 12 year old girl who had been raped by her father was refused an abortion because of their primitive laws. It's why many women fly to the UK to have it done.

And you are comparing that to Sharia?   The flaw is the sense of proportion. 

[Yorkshire pud]

"Islam's borders are bloody and so are its innards. The fundamental problem for the West is not Islamic fundamentalism. It is Islam, a different civilisation whose people are convinced of the superiority of their culture and are obsessed with the inferiority of their power"
- Samuel P Huntington,  The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of the World Order (1993)

A fairly modern comment, but one can look through the writings of westerners that traveled to the Islamic lands over the past thousand years to find similar comments about the 'men of Muhomnnud'

Importing these people is not a lot different than bringing in an equivalent number of determined cannibals - if they voted right, the media put their spin on it, and it made certain people feel good about themselves, I imagine there would be plenty of advocates for that as well.

Is that it?


Importation of people went out with slavery..before that, the indigenous people of North America had to accept the white man self importing himself, and land grab those same peoples' land..and then murdered them when they wanted it back. The media putting it's 'spin' on a story has got an innocent man killed because they named him (incorrectly) as a suspect in the bombings..VERY left wing eh? Funny how you haven't taken the press to task on that one; Perhaps it was because the deceased isn't a good ole boy?

[Yorkshire pud]

And you are comparing that to Sharia?   The flaw is the sense of proportion.

I haven't compared to Sharia; You have. There's little point you trying to take a measured and rounded point of view because you're restricted by your limited interaction with others who aren't white, male and ignorant.   

[Sleepwalker]

The queen is not really the head of government nor the head of the church. Though, I'll admit it's a closer call than here.  After all, that's some of what the little incident beginning in 1776 was about.

Actually, the Queen of England is the head of state in the United Kingdom and, although there were many issues, the primary cause of the American War for Independence was taxation without representation.  Study up on it.  It makes for good reading.

[West of the Rockies]

That`s about as disingenuous as it gets.


You added absolutely zero context to Ann`s quote. It was written mere hours after Ann, and the rest of the civilized world, watched in disbelief and profound disgust as Muslims in rogue, anti-American nations took to the streets in celebration of the mass slaughter on 9/11. She had lost friends and friends of friends in that attack. It was a deeply emotional event -- as you may recall.

I don't golf, FtF.  What is a "mulligan"?  Is that like a do-over?  I certainly do recall 9/11, having been about 40 and having become a father just 12 days prior to that event.  And I recall a lot of rage and fear in the responses of millions of people.  I also recall pretty quickly some voices opining that not all Muslims were evil and destructive.  I recall stories of people who even looked Arabic being attacked.  Perhaps it's a bit like WWII in that after Pearl Harbor we put many law-abiding, loyal Japanese people in internment camps (to our later collective shame).

Okay, I'll agree that Coulter might now feel differently about forcing all Muslims to convert to Christianity -- but has she actually SAID as much?  I've not heard it.  And for the record, I do think that Islam (in the hands of radicals in particular) has much to answer for.  (I feel this is true of all organized religions however that visit violence upon so-called non-believers and infidels.)

But what of the other examples I presented from Neiwert's book?  You said nothing of them.  You cherry-picked one quotation that I think was pretty reprehensible and are trying to use it to tell me that I should feel shame.  You're obviously more aware of Coulter's words than I, for I had no idea when she offered those words about Islam.  And the Neiwert book did not provide the context you say is so important.  But I'll ask you again -- has Coulter recanted?  Does she now, here in 2013 still feel that all Muslims should be forcefully converted to Christianity?  Who would accomplish this Herculean task?  And if it did occur, would our government that force all Americans to likewise become Christian? 

Please note that in my response to you I am trying to answer your questions.  I don't know if I will have done so according to your tastes, but there you go.  I am not name-calling and I would earnestly welcome your thoughts on this subject.

And just for the hell of it, are you a football fan?  How do you feel about the NFL draft that just ended?  Do we perhaps have a passing interest in sports in common?  I grew up in So Cal so I am still loyal to the Rams organization (crappy as it has become).  The first players I can recall were Deacon Jones, Merlin Olson, Roman Gabriel throwing to the late Jack Snow.  In baseball, I adored the Angels and went to lots of their games.  I remembe damn near crying the day they traded my favorite player, shortstop Jim Fregosi, for some snot-nosed punk with the New York Mets... what was his name... oh, yeah, Nolan Ryan! 


Frankly,  my own reaction was far more visceral than even Ann`s. I suspect many Americans would say the same.


Ann Coulter gets a mulligan on this one -- as do all Americans so moved on that horrible day. But I still  think it`s a bit under-handed to roll out a quote like that and present it with no context. Shame!

[The General]

The Queen is the head of the Anglican church. Although she isn't officially a government official, constitutionally she has considerable influence unofficially. To say religions don't have a political slant is ludicrous. Ireland's laws are written with catholic laws in their origination. For example it's illegal for a woman to have an abortion in Ireland, except under very strict rules and even then, only with a court intervening. Several years ago a 12 year old girl who had been raped by her father was refused an abortion because of their primitive laws. It's why many women fly to the UK to have it done.

Comparing the systems of government that Christianity has given us (freedom of religion, women's rights, etc.) to the tyrannical cesspools that Islam has given us (sharia law, enslavement of women, etc.) only highlights how morally confused you are.


Why are you so eager to sympathize with radical Islam?

[The General]

It's also worth mentioning but will be quietly swept aside that one young man has been found dead because he was wrongly accused by Reddit and later the New York Post (That great Murdoch leftie, commie, pinko, liberal mouthpiece) of being one of the suspects. That's the danger of jumping too conclusions.

Sunil Tripathi, the missing Brown University student, was found dead in the Providence river and it appears that he had been there since before the bombings even took place.  Foul play is not suspected.  We are looking at a likely suicide here.  He's been missing, and presumably dead, since March.  He was not murdered "because he was wrongly accused" as you have insinuated. 

[West of the Rockies]

Forensic work should be able to determine the approximate time and probably cause of death fairly certainly. 

[PB the Deplorable]

I haven't compared to Sharia; You have. There's little point you trying to take a measured and rounded point of view because you're restricted by your limited interaction with others who aren't white, male and ignorant.

Hey West of the Rockies - you were asking about Ann Coulter's book 'How To Talk To a Liberal (If You Must)' awhile back.  I didn't read it but I assume this is what she's talking about.

[Yorkshire pud]

Comparing the systems of government that Christianity has given us (freedom of religion, women's rights, etc.) to the tyrannical cesspools that Islam has given us (sharia law, enslavement of women, etc.) only highlights how morally confused you are.

Nope..not confused..But not dreadfully ignorant either. I'm glad you highlighted the freedoms that Christianity has given us. It's given the freedom to have christian zealots influencing politics and society to the degree that creationism is being taught in certain schools.. Christianity in the catholic flavour whereby contraception is banned as a mean of family planning..And why poverty is rife in those countries where the Catholic church is all powerful. Women's rights? So long as they don't exercise their right to control their own bodies eh?

Why are you so eager to sympathize with radical Islam?

Please cite where I've sympathised with radical Islam? I've outlined the inconvenience of why (insert pissed off group as required) citizens get motivated to be radical. I don't agree with the fall out from such action, but I can see how it happens. It's happened in all manner of cultures and continents in centuries gone by, what makes humanity so different now? Civilisation? What makes the west more civilised? Because we have more sophisticated ways of killing people with mandates that decides lies are justification for killing 100 000 people in a far off country that most couldn't find on a map? Iraq has deformed babies being boorn every week because of depleted uranium ordnance..Now call me cynical, but I can imagine if 100 000 Americans had been killed and you had babies born with organs outside their bodies, with deformed limbs and no spines or skulls, YOU'D be mightily pissed off? I'm certain they throwing the sop to you of 'collateral damage' wouldn't hold much water.

[Sleepwalker]

Comparing the systems of government that Christianity has given us (freedom of religion, women's rights, etc.) to the tyrannical cesspools that Islam has given us (sharia law, enslavement of women, etc.) only highlights how morally confused you are.

Is theocracy ever good?  When the Roman Catholic church ruled much of Western Europe people were imprisoned, tortured and burned at the stake.  The Puritans burned people at the stake in Massachusetts.

Are you sure it was Christianity that gave us "freedom of religion, women's rights, etc?"  Please tell us how "Christianity" gave us "freedom of religion, women's rights, etc."

The First Amendment was added to our Constitution by Thomas Jefferson and the other Founding Fathers.  As for women's rights, women's suffrage in the United States was achieved gradually, at state and local levels, during the late 19th century and early 20th century, culminating in 1920 with the passage of the Nineteenth Amendment: "The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of sex."

[Yorkshire pud]

Hey West of the Rockies - you were asking about Ann Coulter's book 'How To Talk To a Liberal (If You Must)' awhile back.  I didn't read it but I assume this is what she's talking about.

Hey..I can live with that because in civilisation it isn't taken as an insult: than not be blessed with a wide knowledge because the end of my gate is the limit of my world. 

[West of the Rockies]

Goddamnit... in post #529, my words begin with the second full paragraph (where I say I don't know what a mulligan is).  The words above that are Fight the Future's.  Maybe this clarification will make my post a touch more meaningful.

[The General]

Even Bill Maher gets it...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=QE0hvEfuqYY#!

[Yorkshire pud]

Even Bill Maher gets it...

Wooopeee fuckin dooooo...Who is Bill Maher when he's at home? Should I be impressed? Is he an oracle? Has he been outside the USA? I know I should be in awe, but I'm struggling to muster the interest. But posting a video because you can't address the points I raised regarding the disconnect between deaths in a far off country and the USA speaks volumes.