Explosions at Boston Marathon

[onan]

NBC story:

mother of the Boston Marathon bombing suspects states:

“America took my kids away from me,”

Well... not completely... not yet... but hopefully soon.

[Sardondi]

(states to take Tsarnaeva's children away)
Well... not completely... not yet... but hopefully soon.

"Soon" being a relative term, since this is now a case in our badly broken justice system, in which notorious and "celebrity" vases take as much as 3 years to bring to trial, several more months to reach a verdict, and a number of years additional to navigate the appeals process; upon which the real delay begins with the post-appeal-relief process and the 2254/2255 petitions.

Were I a "fabian fascist", I would turn our justice system into the wheel of fortune joke it has become. In which high-publicity cases almost never produce a conviction, and anonymous run-of-the-mill cases are exercises in overcharging and bullying to achieve a guilty plea. Where defendants with far deeper pockets than the government cynically taint and manipulate entire jury pools by such devices as marches by "community action groups" which are bought and paid for by a defendant's millions, or bogus "push polls" which are nothing but pre-trial jury tampering. In which those who would make the best jurors routinely avoid and evade jury duty, all too often leaving the jury arrays populated by people who have neither the desire nor ability to grasp the intricacies of a modern criminal trial. All this so that the populace loses confidence in the ability of the criminal justice system to protect them or render justice, and that one day the entire system collapses on itself because of how cumbersome and unwieldy it has become.

[eddie dean]

Sardondi, I don't think this is ever going to trial.
Justice Dept might drop the death penalty to get a guilty plea, and put him in prison for life x180.

[Eddie Coyle]

Sardondi, I don't think this is ever going to trial.
Justice Dept might drop the death penalty to get a guilty plea, and put him in prison for life x180.

If I were still a degenerate gambler, I'd go with this. This Chechen prick is going the Lee Boyd Malvo route, the "following orders" subservient to the older "mastermind" who is already dead anyway. The dead one will bear the brunt of responsibility.

[Eddie Coyle]

 
          If it is true that the MIT officer was killed for his gun(which was locked and these dinks couldn't retrieve) then these clowns were almost entirely out of the loop.

       My God,  the Mass Ave bridge is a block away from where they killed him. That one minute ride over the bridge puts you in Kenmore Square, where if you ask around a bit, you could probably secure a LAW rocket nevermind a handgun. It's always been a black market paradise. (So I've heard )
       

           

[Scully]

There's actually more evidence that McVeigh and Nichols worked with Islamic terrorists and Saddam Hussein than that they're conservative nut bags.  Jayna Davis wrote an excellent book about the connection.  She was a reporter at KFOR-TV in Oklahoma City at the time of the bombing.  Also, Nichols wife was from the part of the Philippines where the Islamists are revolting.  Nichols and McVeigh were never able to get their test bombs to work until after Nichols made a trip home with his wife.

A quick search on Jayna Davis led me to her appearance on Coast to Coast, which didn't help her credibility with me.  As we all know, conspiracy books are written about virtually every major event, and most of them are very entertaining, but tend to remain a "theory" till the end of days.


I don't doubt at all that Terry Nichols' second wife had an Islamic connection who quite possibly aided in craftsmanship of the bomb used on the Murrah Building, but everything in general I read about McVeigh seems to point to his needing no Islamic influence to form his radical thinking. 


From Wiki, that vast source of knowledge:


McVeigh was a registered Republican when he lived in Buffalo, New York, in the 1980s, and had a membership in the National Rifle Association while in the military,[83] but voted forLibertarian Party candidate, Harry Browne, in the 1996 presidential elections.[84] McVeigh was raised Roman Catholic.[85] During his childhood, he and his father attended Massregularly.[86] McVeigh was confirmed at the Good Shepherd Church in Pendleton, New York, in 1985.[87] In a 1996 interview, McVeigh professed belief in "a God", although he said he had "sort of lost touch with" Catholicism and "I never really picked it up, however I do maintain core beliefs."[85] In the 2001 book American Terrorist, McVeigh stated that he did not believe in Hell and that science is his religion.[88][89] In June 2001, a day before the execution, McVeigh wrote a letter to the Buffalo News identifying as agnostic.[90] Before his execution, McVeigh took the Catholic sacrament of the Anointing of the Sick.[91]

[FightTheFuture]

I hope to God, I am still alive to witness the day when the name Timothy McVeigh will no longer be mentioned every, last, single freakin` time there is any act of terror perpetrated on American soil.


McVeigh is an odd anomaly, but thanks to leftists in the elctronic media, has maintained a certain poster-boy status of "right-wing___(fill in blank)____".


Time to let it go, folks.

[The General]

I hope to God, I am still alive to witness the day when the name Timothy McVeigh will no longer be mentioned every, last, single freakin` time there is any act of terror perpetrated on American soil.


McVeigh is an odd anomaly, but thanks to leftists in the elctronic media, has maintained a certain poster-boy status of "right-wing___(fill in blank)____".


Time to let it go, folks.

No shit. 
The only reason we hear about him so much is because he was a singular anomaly.
Can the average person name just one of the 19 terrorists from the 9/11 attacks?

[Yorkshire pud]

No shit. 
The only reason we hear about him so much is because he was a singular anomaly.
Can the average person name just one of the 19 terrorists from the 9/11 attacks?

Not so: You hear about him because he's local. Most Americans wouldn't find Saudi Arabia on a map of the world without putting their finger on Canada, nor be able to pronounce the names of the hijackers. KISS. Let it go...because? He was a Republican? He wasn't a Democrat? Not that I think either is relevant to him being a terrorist.

[West of the Rockies]

Some people simply will not let go of their grudges.  (I'd say that the collective hatred Americans feel for McVeigh goes beyond mere grudge though.)

I hear some Republicans point to the corruption of Democrats by shouting, "Kennedy!  Chappaquiddick!" (Well, Kennedy has been dead now for four years and Chappaquiddick happened 44 years ago.)

Similarly, you have the Orange Order Protestants marching in Catholic neighborhoods in Ireland to celebrate (rub the Catholics noses in) the ascension of King Billy in... wait for it... 1688. 

You have Democrats still pointing to the evils of Joseph McCarthey, Richard Nixon, and --  more recently -- GWB.

Why?  Well, of course, there is the point that "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" (Santayana). 

I think that party affiliation of earlier evil-doers remains relevant if those figures are still inspiring contemporary acts of violence.  Is there not evidence to suggest that, for instance, the Virginia Tech shooter was well-aware of the Columbine gunmen and wanted to achieve similar notoriety?   

[The General]

Not so: You hear about him because he's local.

Which makes him an anomaly.  We agree.

[West of the Rockies]

I see that in a couple posts above this one, I really did not connect an important point....

I doubt that Klebold and Harris probably had any meaningful "party affiliation" to speak of -- they were, after all, a couple of very troubled teenagers.  Using them was a bad example in my attempt to suggest that political affiliation is significant when considering the motivations of murderers. 

Instead, I'd say that if the George Tiller murderer was inspired by the tough-talking O'Reilly (who was pushing the conservative argument against abortion), then the political affiliation of Tiller's murderer is relevant.  Similarly, if a leftwing moonbat murdered a conservative figure because Olbermann once called that figure "the worst person in the world" (thereby "inspiring" murder), Olbermann might well have something to answer for.

[FightTheFuture]

I see that in a couple posts above this one, I really did not connect an important point....

I doubt that Klebold and Harris probably had any meaningful "party affiliation" to speak of -- they were, after all, a couple of very troubled teenagers.  Using them was a bad example in my attempt to suggest that political affiliation is significant when considering the motivations of murderers. 

Instead, I'd say that if the George Tiller murderer was inspired by the tough-talking O'Reilly (who was pushing the conservative argument against abortion), then the political affiliation of Tiller's murderer is relevant.  Similarly, if a leftwing moonbat murdered a conservative figure because Olbermann once called that figure "the worst person in the world" (thereby "inspiring" murder), Olbermann might well have something to answer for.

Any person who commits a heinous act is already demented in some way. It`s utterly ridiculous - if not dangerous - to attribute  violent acts, perpetrated by twisted psychopaths, to "controversial" speech.

In the case of George Tiller, for instance, Bill O`Reilly was in no conceivable way responsible for him being gunned down. Tiller "The Baby Killer" was a vile human being, despised by many, who sincerely believed he was committing murder on a daily basis, so it comes as no surprise that someone took a shot at him. But To blame that on a talk show host is simply not rational.

[West of the Rockies]

Any person who commits a heinous act is already demented in some way. It`s utterly ridiculous - if not dangerous - to attribute  violent acts, perpetrated by twisted psychopaths, to "controversial" speech.

In the case of George Tiller, for instance, Bill O`Reilly was in no conceivable way responsible for him being gunned down. Tiller "The Baby Killer" was a vile human being, despised by many, who sincerely believed he was committing murder on a daily basis, so it comes as no surprise that someone took a shot at him. But To blame that on a talk show host is simply not rational.

I will agree with you, FtF, that there is no demonstrable connection between O'Reilly's words and Scott Roeder's murder of George Tiller.  Roeder was mentally ill.  If, however, he heard O'Reilly repeatedly berate "baby killer Tiller", can we say that such words had "no conceivable" impact on Roeder?  Was he a deeply disturbed individual who needed but a gentle push to send him into violence?  I see it as irrational to deny the possibility that the words of a fiery pundit watched/listened to by millions might have unforeseen consequences (such as violence).  When a Jones or Beck or Palin "jokes" about not retreating but "reloading", or when they tell us that our government's goal is to enslave us, such words can affect people in a very dangerous way.  When a black Muslim "minister" repeatedly calls his fellow Americans "white devils", is it inconceivable that an unstable parishioner might not become radicalized and interpret such words as a call to action? 

It may be irresponsible to insist on a connection -- and in the case of O'Reilly and Roeder, I do NOT insist on such a connection.  But I think it is also irresponsible to not at least consider the possibility that hate talk is a tacit endorsement of violence.

[Sleepwalker]

I hope to God, I am still alive to witness the day when the name Timothy McVeigh will no longer be mentioned every, last, single freakin` time there is any act of terror perpetrated on American soil.


McVeigh is an odd anomaly, but thanks to leftists in the elctronic media, has maintained a certain poster-boy status of "right-wing___(fill in blank)____".


Time to let it go, folks.

McVeigh is an "odd anomaly?"  What do you call his pal Terry Nichols?  "Odd Anomaly Number Two?" 

Your so-called "odd anomaly" claimed 168 lives, including 19 children under the age of 6 and injured more than 680 people.

Time to let it go?  I don't think so!

[FightTheFuture]

'' But I think it is also irresponsible to not at least consider the possibility that hate talk is a tacit endorsement of violence.''


That's my entire point; nothing these so-called pundits, talk show hosts, etc., talk about comes close to qualifying as ''hate speech''.

[Yorkshire pud]

'' But I think it is also irresponsible to not at least consider the possibility that hate talk is a tacit endorsement of violence.''


That's my entire point; nothing these so-called pundits, talk show hosts, etc., talk about comes close to qualifying as ''hate speech''.

That depends entirely on the listener. If some disciple interprets what he hears as a call to arms to justify inflicting revenge or a pre-emptive strike on their object of hate, then yes, it's hate speech.

[Juan]

Can anyone supply the name of a person who has resorted to violence following influence by a radio broadcast?  This idea of speech prompting violence is widely held, but I can't think of an instance.  I'm talking about the kind of individual violence that's being discussed here - not mass violence such as Hitler causing WWII.

[onan]

Can anyone supply the name of a person who has resorted to violence following influence by a radio broadcast?  This idea of speech prompting violence is widely held, but I can't think of an instance.  I'm talking about the kind of individual violence that's being discussed here - not mass violence such as Hitler causing WWII.

I doubt there is any direct connection. Irrationality, stupidity, and immaturity are pernicious. One negative comment about ethnicity, religious beliefs, economic lifestyle, or any other reason to discriminate has little authority. But repetitive pandering about any subject has the potential to garner support by those that have a predisposition to dislike someone or something else.


I don't remember who said it but it goes something like this: If we remove all color and ethnicity by 10:00 am; by 12:00 pm we will have found new reasons to hate others.


The more we hear that one group is less than another group the more acceptable it is to demean that group. The difficult part of that is sometimes it is appropriate to demean a group. I guess when we all get halos we will figure it out.   


However the opposite is easy to see, insult the prophet Mohammed and you had better duck. 

[Yorkshire pud]

Can anyone supply the name of a person who has resorted to violence following influence by a radio broadcast?  This idea of speech prompting violence is widely held, but I can't think of an instance.  I'm talking about the kind of individual violence that's being discussed here - not mass violence such as Hitler causing WWII.

Take out the radio broadcast and replace with an Iman who coverts the easily swayed and influenced. Several instances in the UK where prospective terrorist bombers have been foiled by intelligence and the track leading to an individual who was making sure they stayed out of reach whilst gathering young guys to do the dirty work they're too cowardly to do themselves. Other than the personality, the audience, the method; The ideals are the same.

[West of the Rockies]

From Onan:  "I don't remember who said it but it goes something like this: If we remove all color and ethnicity by 10:00 am; by 12:00 pm we will have found new reasons to hate others."

We're like star-bellied sneetches and plain belly sneetches (from Dr. Seuss).  Yup, we'll find one reason or another to despise each other.  Look at all the schisms that have taken place in various churches where some disagreement over a doctrinal issue sends half of the flock to a new church in a huff.

I don't know, maybe my argument is similar to one I have heard a lot of conservative people make -- namely, that the true cause of gun violence in this country is violent computer games.  Some people insist that playing violent video games will make some people run out and commit acts of violence.  There is no demonstrable evidence that this is true.

Perhaps there is no demonstrable evidence that a particular pundit telling listeners over and over that group X is horrible and should be "dealt with" (exterminated)... but it is an issue worth discussing.

[Juan]

With regard to video games, I've had a couple of cops tell me that they don't know if video games make kids more prone to violence, but the games make the kids more lethal.  Before video games, if one person shot another, the shooter generally aimed for the body - a bigger target.  Now with video games rewarding the gamer for a head shot, the kids are shooting each other in the head.

[FightTheFuture]

Perhaps there is no demonstrable evidence that a particular pundit telling listeners over and over that group X is horrible and should be "dealt with" (exterminated)... but it is an issue worth discussing.

Could you give us some examples of that? I listen to a fair amount of talk radio (encompassing the entire political spectrum) and I haven`t heard anything even close to that.

[West of the Rockies]

Hey, FtF... Here are a couple of quotations from a book entitled The Eliminationists:  How Hate Talk Radicalized the American Right by David Neiwert.

This from a column written by Ann Coulter regarding Muslims:   "We should invade their countries, kill their leaders, and convert them to Christianity."  (How would we all feel if we heard some Imam say such a thing?)

From Michael Savage (referring to homosexuals and a particular homosexual caller):  "Oh, you're one of the sodomites.  You should only get AIDS and die, you pig.  How's that?  Why don't you see if you can sue me, you pig.  You got nothing better than to put me down, you piece of garbage.  You have got nothing to do today, go eat a sausage and choke on it."  (Sodomites is pretty clearly a code-word for homosexual.  Is it really such a big leap to see Savage's words as a dehumanization of a large swathe of people?  Making a group of people less than human is the first step towards their extinction, isn't it?  Isn't that what Hitler did with the Jews, make them out to be different, evil?)

Savage said that the 2004 tsunami that killed 200,000 people wasn't a tragedy because "the majority of victims were Muslim."

He said of liberals in general:  "I say round them up and hang 'em high!...  When  hear someone's in the civil rights business, I oil up my AR-15!"

All good humor?  Or eliminationist talk?  I report.  You decide.

Could you find similar talk from someone on the left?  Very likely.  I would vehemently denounce such talk regardless of what side it came from. 

[b_dubb]

i was disappointed how the media made these two out to be the boogeyman.  sure what they did was horrible i'm not saying otherwise.  but police effectively shut down boston for what?  to hunt down a 19 year old?  i'm glad they found the turd but if the police had come to my door and asked to search my house i think i would have told them they were just going to have to take my word that he wasn't there. 

am i an asshole?

[Yorkshire pud]

i was disappointed how the media made these two out to be the boogeyman.  sure what they did was horrible i'm not saying otherwise.  but police effectively shut down boston for what?  to hunt down a 19 year old?

Okay I'm game: To hunt down a 19 year old who was greatly suspected of planting two bombs and in possession of any number of weapons and/or ordnance. They'd already been chased as they threw grenades from the car window...At which point does a 19 year old have butter melt in his mouth after that little adventure? There are soldiers fighting and dying in Afghanistan aged 18 and 19...so does the age seem improbable to be doing such damage?

i'm glad they found the turd but if the police had come to my door and asked to search my house i think i would have told them they were just going to have to take my word that he wasn't there. 

am i an asshole?

In short? Yes. I'll leave it for others to explain in simple terms why.

[Eddie Coyle]

i was disappointed how the media made these two out to be the boogeyman.  sure what they did was horrible i'm not saying otherwise.  but police effectively shut down boston for what?  to hunt down a 19 year old?  i'm glad they found the turd but if the police had come to my door and asked to search my house i think i would have told them they were just going to have to take my word that he wasn't there. 

am i an asshole?

A 19 year old who stood 10 feet behind an eight year old and a six year old and placed a bomb there.

        I hate playing this card, but you have no clue to the climate here last week so it's very easy to play hardass Constitutionalist a week later. Was it overblown?, maybe in retrospect, but these cops had seen these fucks just murder one of their own, kill a an eight year old boy, two young women and make 30 people amputees. Your word wouldn't have meant shit and they were going in anyway.
       

         

[West of the Rockies]

It's difficult and probably pointless to try to compare and quantify tragedies.  I heard some people say that the Texas fertilizer factory explosion was a worse tragedy based on the number of those killed.  But that explosion took place in large part because of short-sightedness and corporate greed.  The people running the company certainly knew their factory was in violation of various health and safety codes, and maybe they just flat-out didn't care -- I suspect that instead they simply assumed nothing really bad would ever happen because it never had previously.  That doesn't excuse their safety violations.  Their greed for profit resulted in the needless deaths of innocent people just trying to earn a living.

But the Boston bombers exhibited intent.  They purposefully meant to kill and destroy.  There is, if you will, perhaps a higher level of evil.  That made the story especially disturbing and compelling. 

Both stories were horrible, but I cannot begin to fathom calling the Boston event "overblown".

[b_dubb]

it's just that every time i turn on the tv or the radio they're discussing these two assholes.  i would prefer such monsters were never identified as it seems to glorify them in the minds of the confused and disaffected.  but that would interfere with the freedom of the press. 

[The General]

If I were the father of that 8 year old boy, I might just go Jack Ruby on that subhuman piece of shit.